Flexradio 6600 vs 8600?

Stan VA7NF

Thanks Mike for the info. Some Notes:

* Still proudly wear the "croud-funding reward" 6700 signature series jacket
* Still have the first Canadian 6700 which is still the best radio I've seen/owned since 1961
* Survived the first 6700 PEN to upgrade the processing power
* Seen many improvements since SmartSDR V0 early release (not a typo)
* Happy to see my suggestion of softening the "brick wall" filter option to hear off filter signals implemented
* Surprised the 6700 is still the high-end flagship radio. Expected a 6800 and 8800 replacement
*** VERY Sad to not see the phased diversity, even with the 6700 performance PEN. Still works well for 10 years on the 5000 series with PC computing power. Perhaps Steve may explain why it came off the road-map and if it may potentially ever come to 6700 fruition.

Also thanks Mike for your community support, even if, at times, you become a politician!

I

Russ Ravella

I just want to add a loud voice of support to Stan's request. If I could have chosen one single improvement in a new Flex product line it would have been well implemented diversity reception. Obviously a clean transmit signal is important but all Flex radios already meet the FCC requirements for that and the benefit of ADP pretty much only applies to SSB anyway.

The most critical function of any radio regardless of mode is its receive performance. Everything else is a distant second. And the one thing Flex could have done to improve receive performance the most, which would include hams who don't have the luxury of improving their basic antenna systems is well implemented diversity reception.

My understanding is the diversity reception in PowerSDR currently enjoyed by Anan users for example predates the SSDR/PSDR split by Flex and had actually been implemented BY Flex by then. I've read complaints that Flex promised all the same functionality then in PSDR in the new SSDR at the time. If that's true then Flex literally didn't finish the job way back then bringing up SSDR. And they should feel a sense of responsibility to keep that promise which they obviously don't.

Mike's response just sounds like political gobbledigook. Truly disappointing.

Russ KR6W

Trucker

Diversity Reception with Phase Cancelation is alive and working well in PowerSDR. It only works with the dual receiver Flex 5000A. And it "should " work in SmartSDR with radios that have dual SCU's. I have only dabbled with Diversity Reception in SmartSDR as it doesn't have Phase Cancelation, so I don't know how well it would or could possibly work for Phase Cancelation.

James

WD5GWY

Russ Ravella

Hi Trucker,

The implementation in SmartSDR is primitive by comparison to that in PowerSDR. And it looks like it's going to stay that way. Tragic.

Russ KR6W

Mike-VA3MW

I want to add 1 point, and given that I mentioned this a few times, I did make a mistake.

The GPSDO for the 6000 is not plug compatible with the 8000.

It is still a Jackson Labs GPS but with new mounting hardware.

If you hear otherwise, it was my fault and I apologize for any confusion that may have caused.

Mike

Neil D Friedman N3DF

Vindicated!

John KB4DU

well personally I would recommend to any one that asks “Don’t by a Flex until software gets out of stagnant mode”. What’s the point of new hardware running the same clunky software.

Stan VA7NF

John, slight disagreement. As I mentioned above, even without diversity phased noise cancellation my 6700 is still very competative to being the best rig around. What about another computing power PEN for the 6000 series?

Peter K1PGV

I love my Flex. I’ve loved ALL my Flex radios, starting with the SDR-1000.

But, I have to say, I find the “just make it good enough” attitude from FlexRadio to be really frustrating.

As a long time senior manager and tech entrepreneur, I can tell you that “will this feature sell more units” is the wrong question. You can never answer it accurately. The question should be “will this feature delight our users?” User delight, indirectly, always sells more units. It contributes to positive impressions, higher approval ratings, and excellent word of mouth.

The historic under-resourcing of the ham side of Flex’s business, as evidenced by the fact that it took years to get something as simple as an analog meter implemented, is really unfortunate. The fact that every model Flex uses the same, boring, rectangular, box… even though for a non-M model the box is at least 80% empty is sad.

Sure, the 6000 series is a **** fine radio. And I’m sure the 8000 series will be as well. I’ll probably buy one. But addressing so many issues with “it’s good enough” and “it won’t sell more radios” leaves a lot of users less happy than they should be. It’s like having a rock in your shoe. Over time, all you can do is think of the fact that it’s there… not be happy that you have shoes at all.

C’mon, Flex Radio management… stop with the ”good enough” and “we’ll do it if it’ll sell more radios” — why not, instead, eat a bit of profit, or increase the unit cost just a little, and create a radio system that delights customers. Imagine what it would be like to have a user community where everyone is thrilled?!

Russ Ravella

Hi Peter,

Aside from a few comments here and there through the years from Flex employees I'm only guessing here but what's been happening at Flex looks exactly like the classic COO/CFO conflict seen so often throughout the history of tech companies. Sort of THE classic tech company syndrome repeated over and over and over again.

The technical folks who invent the product eventually hire an MBA (read: "bean counter") to run the company for them. That way they can focus on the good stuff, the delightful stuff that made the company successful in the first place as you say. The template MBA is a greedy, simple minded soulless graduate of some business school whose only interest is making money as fast as possible. Successful ones have very strong personalities and basically take over the company by intimidation. They constrict business activities to those they think will make them the most money in the shortest amount of time. They have no long term vision and no appreciation of the product itself. Eventually they strangle the company to death, take their money and move on.

I would be willing to bet that an unrestricted view into Flex would reveal both the bean counter(s) and those who are afraid to stand up to him/her/them. As the absolute lowest priority at Flex, its ham customer's interests have essentially zero influence. I recently had a post exchange with Steve Hicks on the Flex groups.io reflector where he basically explicitly said that. Still, even at a small percentage of their potential Flex radios are getting to be pretty great now that they're finally starting to at least fix the bugs. Even though we are the original "investors" who made all of this possible in the first place, our interests have no influence because we have no courageous champion within Flex. So we might as well enjoy what there is to enjoy.

Russ KR6W

Trucker

Quite a bleak outlook Russ. I am not entirely sure of the corporate structure of Flex Radio. But, it has been a family run business in the past.

James

WD5GWY

Russ Ravella

Hi James,

Yeah, I know, pretty bleak. I think you're right they are a private family owned company but they still have executive officers and as I mentioned, it seems obvious and Flex employees have indicated that one or more of them (not a family member) pretty much decide what does and doesn't happen there at least by way of having very strong influence. Someone you do not challenge. I've really been through the mill with Flex over many years - five radios to get one that worked, three PGXLs to get one that worked, two TGXLs, a rebuilt Maestro B and of course the many year's long software nightmare. They made me sign an NDA before they would even fix my first PGXL. I learned a lot from all of that.

The thing that's most frustrating is being mere ham customers we're at the very bottom of their priority stack. As Steve Hicks explained, we'll get what we get when they get around to it and should be happy with whatever that is. Despite the fact that we financed the whole thing from the beginning. It has always been that way and apparently always will be.

You'd never believe it from that post but I'm actually an unabashed Flex fanboy through and through. Flex is a very weird company - a lot of very good and a lot of very not good. It's so weirdly polar. Even though it's SO much less than it could be and clearly always will be (just read Mike Walker's justification for not including a full implementation of Diversity Reception in the 8XXX series in a recent post here - if one WORD of what he said were actually true, the reality now would be SO much better), what it is is still pretty amazing, at least to me.

I've gotten so mad at them several times I've decided to just give up, sell everything and go with another company. Every time I started from scratch studying everything I could find about the alternatives, studying the products, reading customer posts and reviews, etc and ended up never willing to give up the radio-server/client approach with all its potential. I just keep hoping they'll eventually care as much about it as I do and fix things. The milk toast reality of the 8XXX compared to what was possible (they didn't even bother with dedicated connectors for their new super duper APD) doesn't inspire much hope though.

One last thing on the positive side, the employees themselves at Flex with a single exception are, amazingly, really outstanding. I've often had the feeling they quietly understand the situation as we do and see their role as doing everything they can to compensate for it. They are absolutely fantastic and I ultimately keep buying Flex because I trust them. Yeah, I know, long answer. I'm really really old and rambling seems to come with the territory …

73 Russ KR6W

Trucker

Interesting comments Russ. Probably closer to the mark than many of us would like. I have felt many of the frustrations you mentioned over the years being a Flex customer. Most of my frustrations are related to the software. And now, being told that some of the things that were mentioned as upcoming features for SmartSDR in the 6000 series radios, may not be available without upgrading to the newer radios. And it makes one wonder if the new hardware will actually provide the needed resources to actually inspire Flex Radio to deliver those features sooner than later. ( or be put on the back burner again)

The original roadmap that Flex Radio once published really came back to bite them when customers ( me included) complained about them delaying or not delivering a full working feature that was on the roadmap. So, instead of trying to up their game and improve or add wanted features, they simply stopped sharing software goals with their customers. I guess this way, when someone complains about a missing or incomplete feature, they can honestly say, we never promised that. Or if it is acknowledged at all, they can say it's on their list to do. But, when they will get around to actually fixing or adding a requested feature, is not shared anymore.

The only reason I am interested in the new radios is for repairability in the future. But, I don't count on anything beyond that. More than likely, I will use my 6600M till it is no longer serviceable. And for other features I consider important and wish my 6600M had, I have other radios that provide those features. ( a 5000A with dual receivers for fully featured Diversity Reception with Phase Cancelation. An Anan 8000DLE for fantastic noise reduction and other features that my 6600M either doesn't have or is not fully implemented)

By the way, I understand about getting long winded. I'm 73 and tend to be that way myself.

James

WD5GWY

John KB4DU

well, some bugs have been squashed, but none of them helped me. I haven’t applied an update In years. He help desk claims much improved performance, but I haven’t noticed any comments here about how much better the later versions are.Flex still can’t release software that performs correctly on release. Almost always a fix for the fix follows shortly.

Peter K1PGV

@Russ Ravella wrote:

You'd never believe it from that post but I'm actually an unabashed Flex fanboy through and through. Flex is a very weird company - a lot of very good and a lot of very not good. It's so weirdly polar. Even though it's SO much less than it could be and clearly always will be… what it is is still pretty amazing, at least to me.

This. Right here. This is why asking “will it sell more radios” is the wrong question. It leads to users feeling what Mr Ravella describes so aptly in his last post.

And it’s sooo unnecessary. Decide, every day, to delight your customers. Empower your PM and engineering teams to do those things. It might cost you a couple of dollars in the short run. But in the long run? You win big time.

I feel a lot like how Mr. Ravella describes. Flex is successful despite the “good enough” and “will it sell more radios” approach. I love my Flex radio. A lot. But I can’t help think that it could be so much more. If ham radio weren’t a niche market, Flex would be positioning themselves for a challenger to take their market share.

W2PP

So, as someone who has managed a half a billion dollar budget, yes ROI is the most important issue. Delighting customers is not a one way street. I'm not even sure I know what the poster precisely means. If more customers buy something, by extension they are delighted or they wouldn't be buying it in the first place. At the same time, it is reasonable to put in a dash or software/hardware that are of interest to a minority of customers.

Just because a customer speaks with passion does not mean the broader market agrees or frankly is even interested. Were this an ICOM forum, the posts would be identical. This venue provides an outlet for those who feel very strongly about an issue to express themselves. This forum, however, should never be confused with the broader market at large. This forum is merely a key hole view of the broader market. Flex would be entirely foolish to make major decisions based on a help center forum.

Peter

Peter K1PGV

@W2PP wrote:

If more customers buy something, by extension they are delighted or they wouldn't be buying it in the first place.

Not at all! It simply means the product is perceived by customers as “the best available option” given the customer’s need and constraints. It has nothing at all to do with whether the customers are delighted.

Flex would be entirely foolish to make major decisions based on a help center forum.

We are indeed on different planets when it comes to management philosophy. In my world, one listens closely to one’s most passionate users. Perhaps even cultivates their feedback and caters to them. Not to the exclusion of any other feedback, but as a key and valuable data point.

Trucker

If a company has customers that are excited, happy, delighted, ( take your pick) about your product(s) they can be some of your best advertising. If they are not excited, happy, delighted etc about your products, then given enough time, they can pull potential customers away from you. Listening to the wants and needs of your current customers is something that just makes sense. Not only in the Amateur Radio industry, but in all industries.

I drove a truck over the road for over 50 years. I have seen the results of trucking companies that didn't listen to their customers. Over time they went away. It really isn't rocket science. Give your customers what they want and sometimes things they never imagined they would want, and you will have not only repeat customers, but, because your current customers are excited about your products, they will spread the word and you will gain new customers. Advertising is only a portion of gaining new customers. Word of mouth and now, spread over various forums on the internet can make or break a company.

So, though this forum may be considered a "keyhole " look at the needs and wants of the Amateur Radio community, it and other outlets provide a much broader range of viewing by potential customers. And if Flex Radio wants more of those potential customers, they should consider the influence of current customers with future, potential customers.

James

WD5GWY

Neil D Friedman N3DF

One thing I really like about Flex is that its staff always seems pleased to talk with me and answer my questions at the Hamvention dinners, at its large Hamvention booth, or on the phone in response to a help desk ticket. After seeing the 8000 series introduction at the Thursday dinner, I had to wait on line at the booth Friday morning to order an 8600M.

Trucker

I have never had a problem interacting with any of the Flex Radio personnel. Especially the Customer Service Help Desk folks and the service technicians themselves. Very nice and knowledgeable people. Plus, when I have been to an event that Flex Radio was in attendance, the personnel there were always quite helpful and answered my questions the best that they could.

James

WD5GWY

Russ Ravella

I completely agree with the responses to Peter W2PP's post here and would like to ad an additional perspective. There is another side to the broader market Peter refers to. There is an ARMY of frustrated, angry, disenfranchised EX Flex customers out there at this point. They are mostly the result of Flex's inexcusable negligence of its software, and until recently (hopefully) extremely poor hardware reliability. They're long gone and don't have anything whatsoever to do with Flex radio anymore, including posting here. I read their hostile comments in forums every single day. Many of them HATE Flex radio. Flex's broader reputation seems quite poor. I don't see that - in general - with any other manufacturer except Apache Labs.

There are also many Flex customers far less satisfied than those making the last few posts here who either keep their radios on a shelf mostly unused or only use them begrudgingly for various reasons. I also very often read posts from them as well. These are lost future customers. And they are also part of the broader market. They are largely customers who will never buy a Flex product again and like the Flex haters actively dissuade others from buying them. They almost unanimously refer to Flex's total disregard for its ham customers in their posts.

These lost customers are tangible bottom line consequences of Flex's "hams last" policy and represent unrealized revenue left on the table. The missing delight Peter K1PGV refers to resulting from important folks at Flex not standing up for its ham customers causes Flex to fail to tap back into that apparently very large broader market. And to capture those dissuaded by their poor reputation.

Let me refer again to the nonsense response Mike Walker provided here recently to justify Flex having no intention to include a full implementation of Diversity Reception with its pretty disappointing 8XXX radios. Not because it's unique but because it's not. Like so much of Flex's propaganda, it attempts to convince us that Flex cares about hams. That we're important to Flex. That what we want matters and so on. Flex itself pushes this idea of (essentially) delighting us as part of its sales strategy. They always have. They clearly believe convincing us of that is important and will improve radio sales. But all it really does is heighten contrast with reality. It serves to emphasize how much Flex doesn't care about its ham customers when what Flex actually delivers is extremely poor quality software and new model radios with very little its customers have been asking for. While glazing us over with empty words implying they care, Mike is really saying, "what we're actually going to do is ignore your interests because the stark reality is, we don't actually give a XXXX about you." As I said before, I find this infuriating because we quite literally funded Flex being competitive in the very opportunities they're abandoning us for. If it weren't for us, they wouldn't even exist. It's utterly immoral. What we need at Flex is for someone important to step up and be our champion.

I believe it would DEFINITELY be in Flex's best interest to pay attention to it's users on this forum.

73 Russ KR6W

Sergey KN7K

And back to 8400/8600. I was exited to hear about new "something" is coming at dayton. What do we get same radio as 6400/6600 with potentially new features in the future because new radio will have more CPU power and memory. Big bonus, no SC card.

I do not care about GPSDO or NTP, it is already taken care with external box for my 6600. I do not care about Adaptive predistortion, at least not for $4899.

So what is the new radio is? New box with unknown possible new features and unknown release dates for these features. What exactly I am buying? Completely lost with this release :( Does anyone recall any ham radio model announcement without full SPEC and FEATURES?

Of coarse I understand the possible future obsolete parts for 6600, but new box announcement with unannounced new coming features, it is complete nonsense for me.

I am debating to buy 8600 or not, just for scenario to keep my 6600 as a backup as unexplainable failures and expensive repair still taking my station completely down for a long time without radio.

Sergey

Erik Carling EI4KF

Well said, Sergey. Right on the nose. Your last paragraph in particular is very pertinent from my perspective but all of your comments are so true.

For the reasons you state I may acquire the 8400M and keep the 6400M as back up. Since being licensed in 1985, I have never used predistortion and that has never done me any harm. So I won't be buying it for that. No SD card is a plus. That the 8000 M model controls still don't click and that the mic gain particularly is nudged when adjusting power is a negative. More CPU power helps and future proofing rates as its most important aspect for me too, especially as spec and features are not advertised in any detail as you already point out. The RX performance is, I suspect, identical to the 6000 series despite room for improvement including in noise mitigation, etc.

Overall a damp squib ( a situation or event which is much less impressive than expected ). Yet, even without meaningful product changes that could have resulted in many new customers or increased benefits realized by existing customers, coupled with a peculiar marketing strategy, Flex are still the best.

Erik EI4KF

Erik Carling EI4KF

There is now a new video from Flex with Mike Walker and Steve Hicks which is worth viewing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p_HBOOqQmc

WX7Y

Thanks Erick for reposting the Video!

Thanks very Much Mike and Steve for posting the Video, It answers a lot of my questions and hope others. I hope the momentum with Flex's higher up's continues to let the Amateur community see some real progress with Software and hardware design.

There has been a lot of Negativity but that's what happens when someone wants to be heard who sometime in the past has gotten sour milk so to speak and that is their right to do so.

Again I appreciate what Flex is doing and the wonderful support team and engineers that work for Flex and I look forward seeing what is around the corner for the 8000 series.

Afterall, 2010 when the 6000 series was introduced with the 6700 is a LONG time ago in the Radio world, How many radios has ICOM and Yaesu released since then.

I still run my Original Signature series 6700 and it is BY FAR the best radio I have owned and I have owned a lot of them over the years and keep going back to the 6700.

Mike-VA3MW

@Russ Ravella

Please don't shoot the messenger. :) Written communication can sometimes lack the nuances of a voice conversation, which can lead to misunderstandings. A case in point is the video we just posted.

With years of experience working with CTOs from Wall Street banks, I've learned that providing as much information as possible helps customers make informed decisions. While the answer might not always be what you want to hear, I hope it gives you something useful to work with.

I had an Elmer, who is still around, and he was also a college professor. When I told him something, he would say, "I'm from Missouri," which in 1978, I had to look up somehow. VE3DPI's comments were all about getting the facts. When I hear terms like "everyone," "many," "all," or "no one," my brain is hardwired to seek data to prove it. I take those terms with a grain of salt until I have hard data to support them. Maybe that's why I'm good at debugging things.

And yes, I make mistakes and I own up to them. We all do.

Your comments and everyone else's comments here are welcome, both positive and one we can learn from. Keep in mind, that there are several projects going on that cannot be mentioned, which is unfortunate as some of them are darn cool. Maybe someday.

—

A lot of what is posted here is copied and sent out on an internal Slack channel to FlexRadio Staff and Executives. They actually do hear you and we do listen to customers. They also get the link and can choose to respond if they feel it is worthwhile. Steve, as CTO, does do this from time to time.

@W2PP Thanks — you nailed it in 2 paragraphs.

Carry on —- as you were!

Sergey KN7K

Michael, Flex obviously want to increase sales.

Publish a roadmap and timeline for a new features! It will help you and your Customers.

Sergey

Russ Ravella

Mike,

When you say, "When I hear terms like "everyone", "many", …. , until I have hard data to prove it", you are literally making my point. When I hear spokespeople at Flex like you talk about how much Flex cares about its customers, I too look for hard data to prove it. And that actual hard data is years and years and years of utter neglect while Flex took the money it made selling extremely unreliable radios with software that was a rat's nest of bugs to its ham customers and pursued other business with it. Leaving those customers it supposedly cares so much about holding the bag instead of taking responsibility for that mess and fixing it first. All the while still telling their customers how much it cares about them.

Now after 12 years Flex finally produces an updated product line and right on cue ignores almost everything their customers have been consistently asking for: an 8-slice replacement for the 6700, full featured diversity reception, actual realized advanced noise mitigation (rather than yet another empty promise without any explanation (read: no credibility)), return of user defined waveform functionality and so on. Instead Flex adds a few things few of its customers have actually asked for and based on the comments I'm reading, don't care much about. The sole exception is APD and even then, Flex's implementation is amateurish not even bothering to include dedicated ports for it on the radio.

If I were Flex, the very LAST thing I would want to highlight is the fact that they take what their customers say "with a grain of salt" as you just did. Yes, we KNOW you do ! We can see it in everything you actually do, as opposed to the fluff you say. Show us an 8800, diversity reception, actual noise mitigation that bests Anan's, user defined waveforms and most of all bug fixes. Then it won't matter if what you say is convincing or not because the hard data is what it is.

By the way Mike, speaking of "hard data to prove it", I re-read my posts. I didn't use the terms "everyone", "all" or "no-one" a single time. Not once. As usual, it takes very little to reveal the lack of substance in what you claim.

Russ KR6W

Trucker

Thanks for posting the link to the video. Best I can tell, it basically rehashes everything that has already been posted here and elsewhere. But, a couple of important things ( to me at least) is how long will the 6000 radios be supported, both hardware and software wise? From all that I can gather, M model users ( 6400M and 6600M) are out of luck should the front panel module fail. And if the users of those radios still want the features of an all in one, knobbed radio, then their only choice is having the front panel disabled and buying a Maestro C to use instead of the front panel. Not necessarily a cheap alternative. Plus, it defeats the idea of having a radio that has everything in one place and only needs a microphone, powered speakers and an antenna to quickly ( after a minute or so bootup time) be on the air.

Everything I have been told is the front panel module for the 6400M and 6600M are no longer available. And Flex Radio doesn't have a source for affordable replacement modules.

So, the only other choice is buy a used M model 6000 radio, and if you want to stay with Flex Radio's, buy all new.

And given what I heard in the posted video, there may or may not be anything that the new radios can do that would make me want to spend more money to possibly get updates to long standing feature problems or new features that may or may not, materialize in the no so distant future.

Still on the fence.

James

WD5GWY

John KB4DU

in the case of an SDR, the software is the radio! The hardware is only an enabler for the software. A 6700 is just 8 instances of the same smartSDR software. I suspect the 8000 is a lower level of the military development, a chance to generate more sales by more hype, without actually putting in more investment dollars that software would entail. The profit for Flex seems to be mostly in the hardware, so the software languishes at the current state.