Flexradio 6600 vs 8600?

DL4RCE

Hi all, so what is the exact difference (since it is currently not possible to compare on the website) of the two products? I assume that predistortion will be a v4 Software update for all 6400/6600 series radio. Only thing I can see is the built in GPSDO?

Volker

KD0RC

Hi Volker, here is a link to Kyle's (AA0Z) podcast with Mike Walker, VA3MW where he describes the new 8000 series radios:

https://youtu.be/hMi4MwwLH9w?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3YfibAEprkRwRUaevkP5VR4oKLI9a4WmFKzINhs38-Dm0irN5SslfSisg_aem_AasLlTl_63GVlGFYQrKhDE0DHGK8lKvC-T310uE1gCgimEmg8DdnAxLWQE162sD2lGyywDmijQVxd4RyeUp2-i0O

DL4RCE

great!

fpmacko

Hi Volker.

Kyle's podcast is very good. A few items of note….

1. The GPSDO is a future option. It's not built-in. There is a standard GNSS receiver that is built in, but it drives a TCXO (not an OCXO). Not as accurate as a GPSDO, but more than adequate unless you're a time/frequency nut.
2. The future NTP function will be nice for providing time service in the shack.
3. In my view the biggest new aspect of the 8000 line is that it appears to be based on their ML-9600 government/commercial transceiver, which uses current manufacture components. (Some of the major 6000 series components are no longer being manufactured.) Going forward I suspect that parts availability for the 6000 series could become an issue.

73….Frank / WA3NHK

johnn1jm

How about the SD card. Did they eliminate that?

John N1JM

DL4RCE

good question!

Mike-VA3MW

The GPSDO is the current GPSDO we sell today, so once the radio ships, there is a GPSDO.

Yes, the SD card was eliminated.

Russ Ravella

It seems to me the (or at least a) gorilla in the room is a replacement for the 6700. An 8-slice version of the 8XXX series. Has Flex simply abandon it or is there still one in the future ?

Russ KR6W

Mr Radio

Will early Maestros (A, B) work with 8600 model?

Tom

KD4HSO

Are we ever going to get 8 slices again like the 6700?

With the increased FPGA why not 4 slices/SCU instead of 2? I could use 4 slices just for packet radio, 2 for weak signal modes, 1 for SSB, and 1 for remote operation.

KD0RC

All versions of the Maestro will work.

Eric-KE5DTO

Are we ever going to get 8 slices again like the 6700?

With the increased FPGA why not 4 slices/SCU instead of 2? I could use 4 slices just for packet radio, 2 for weak signal modes, 1 for SSB, and 1 for remote operation.

This is something that we will look at going forward. We know there are people that appreciate having more Slices as offered in the FLEX-6700 AND it is clear that many are happy with just 2 Slices as offered in the FLEX-6300/6400/8400.

Geoff AB6BT

I wonder how may people actually use 8 slices?

Russ Ravella

Speaking for myself, I have all 8 slices running all the time except when I'm remote. Then depending on what I'm doing I might have less.

I started with a 6600, exchanged it for a 6700 for reliability reasons and never looked back. It's one of those things you don't know you need until you have it. Then you can't live without it.

Russ KR6W

WX7Y

I use 6 slices all the time an on occasion when I run RCFORB for Android remote I use 7 slices.

KD4HSO

I currently have a 6500 and should have bought a 6700 to get the 8 slices; I’d use 16 if I had them.

Thus not having 8 slices on the 8000 series will probably be a pass for me as far as upgrading; I was kind of counting on it. The DPD is nice, but the power of SDR comes in parallel channelization (i.e. throwing Moores Law at it).

Dan Trainor

I use only 1 slice and on occasion 2 slices. So everyone has their own methods.

Phil

Sad there is no new 2m Flex. No repleacement for the 6700. I keep my 6400.

WX7Y

Yea Phil that is very true, the Flex6700 with the two meter AMP and the ezDV makes the Flex6700 a VERY formattable radio, and if Flex succeeds in building the Adaptive Predistortion interface for the older radios that was hinted about on one of the You-tube video's WOW what a radio.

Russ Ravella

Another thing about having more slices, every time you implement diversity reception you consume a slice. So if you wanted to run the four slices in an 8600 in diversity mode, you'd need four more slices for a total of eight - which of course it doesn't have.

I use diversity mode a lot. I believe it's the most undervalued tool to improve reception performance there is. I was hoping the 8000 series would implement the much more powerful phase coherent approach in the Anan (which I understand originated in earlier Flex models ?) but apparently they didn't. Or at least they haven't said anything about it. I think it requires a physical connection between SCUs the 6XXXX radios didn't have, and apparently hasn't been added to the 8XXX either so it can't be implemented with just s/w.

Sure disappointed they didn't include an 8800 model, that's for sure.

Russ KR6W

Trucker

Phase Cancelation requires two SCU's and two separate antennas. The rest is done in the software. The Flex 5000A with two receivers could do Phase Cancelation in PowerSDR. The 6700 and the 6600/M radios are properly equipped to handle not only Diversity Reception but, Phase Cancelation as well. Flex Radio simply has never implemented it in SmartSDR.

James

WD5GWY

Russ Ravella

Hi Trucker,

Thanks for the response. What made me wonder about this are various things I've read which describe different ways of doing this. And there are at least three purposes or objectives for making use of phase diversity: noise cancellation, beam forming and polarization. I'm mostly interested in the later though I use all three in my shack between a Timewave ANC-4, a DX Engineering NCC-2 and the Flex itself.

An example article discussing this is here. It indicates the receivers are "phase locked" ("Two  phased locked but independent receivers are needed to implement this method.") which implies the physical connection I mentioned. I've read other things, in particular about the Anan implementation, implying the same thing though never from the actual designer. For all I know, Flex has always been this way. I certainly hope they provide a full implementation similar to Anan's going forward as you say they can !

Thanks and 73, Russ KR6W

Mike-VA3MW

I think most things got answered. Let me share what I can on the others.

Yes, all Maestros will work with the 8000 series.

GNSS vs GPSDO

The GNSS will give you about 0.5Hz error at 50Mhz and the NTP server. The GPSDO will give you 3 orders of magnitude more accuracy.

KP4IP

@Mike-VA3MW will the GNSS and GPSDO units works together or is one or the other? Also, the GPSDO unit goes inside the 8400 like the current 6400?

Neil D Friedman N3DF

I was told by Flex at Dayton that the 8000 series GSPDO will be different from the 6000 series GSPDO.

Russ Ravella

Interesting ! I could swear I heard the opposite during some Flex presentation over the weekend. But then, I'm getting old. Very very old.

Russ KR6W

Mike-VA3MW

@kp4ip

I'm guessing, but based on how it works now with the TCXO and the GPSDO, the GPSDO will take priority. Yes, it will install inside the 8400

@Neil - The person who told you that may have missed some news. It is the same GPSDO from Jackson Labs that we use in the 6000 series.

rdwing

Will phase coherent diversity be coming to the 8600?

What about FPGA and DSP on the new rig? I was hoping for a new radio integrating all of the lessons and new Flex IP obtained from the air force project, meaning likely AMD/Xilinx FPGA with onboard PHY ethernet, non-hardware based DSP, 1 Gsps+ capability, 500w or 1kw radios, substantially upgraded API with documentation.

Maybe moving on from the RtOS to a more supported Linux distribution?

Also what about compatibility with Windows 11 new security defaults, meaning memory integrity. I can't believe that I still need to disable the feature for the entire machine in order to use DAX.

Mike-VA3MW

Phase coherent diversity for the 8600? No, it is not on the road map at this time

Nothing that we can publish just yet. However a LOT of the improvements in performance and the ability to scale came from the commercial products. These are huge changes that you don't see on the screen.

There is no plan to change what has been working well since 2013. It is better to stay with what you do know rather than jumping to a new platform.

Memory integrity needs to be addressed at some point. All I can say is I turned it off on day one and never looked back.

Trucker

Mike, does this mean just because we can doesn't mean we will? Your statements don't instill a lot of confidence that many things a lot of us have hoped for, sooner than later, like Phase Cancelation in Diversity Reception will ever make an appearance.

There are many basic features that sorely need improvement. My hope is they will appear in SmartSDR for both platforms. And hopefully, not in some far distant future. ( or not even being given any attention )

James

WD5GWY

Mike-VA3MW

Hi James,

Thanks for reaching out and sharing your concerns.

You're right in interpreting that unless a feature is explicitly on our roadmap, its development and release aren't guaranteed. We understand how important features like Phase Cancellation in Diversity Reception are to many of our users, and we truly appreciate your patience and passion.

When I bring these thoughts forward (such as Phase Cancelation in Diversity Reception), I am often asked if is it a nice-to-have or a must-have? What percentage of the install base would benefit? Would it sell more radios to the point that the ROI pays for the development man hours?

Steve did mention more work is coming in noise mitigation, which would include this. However, we do have a policy of not announcing anything until we are confirmed we can bring it to market. (yes, I sound like a politician — my apologies).

If you have followed me enough, you may have noticed that I try to provide enough facts and data so that a customer can make an informed decision.

While we continuously strive to improve SmartSDR across all platforms, prioritization can be challenging. We aim to balance new feature development with refining existing functionalities. Your feedback plays a crucial role in shaping our priorities, and we want to assure you that it is heard and valued.

We remain committed to delivering a high-quality experience and will keep you updated on any new developments. Thank you for your understanding and continued support.

73