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recommended noise reduction device

Hello , I have a 6600M with a noise problem . I just purchased a yaesu ft10 and that radio is much quieter than my flex , so I want to do something about it . any ideas (have already went through house with breakers off running rig on battery ) thanks John kb2huk

Answers

  • Jim K4JAF
    Jim K4JAF Member ✭✭

    What criteria are you using to compare the noise level of the 2 radios? IE, same preamps or lack of, AGC vs AGCT, filters, etc.

    Also what is an FT10? Perhaps you mean the FT101? Jim K4JAF

  • Mike VE3CKO
    Mike VE3CKO Member ✭✭

    The FTDX10 is new trimmed down version of FTDX101, a single VFO.

  • KF4HR
    KF4HR Member ✭✭
    edited January 14

    I use a Timewave ANC-4 Antenna Noise Canceler which I have connected through the RxA In/Out ports, and activated via the LOOPA button (under the ANT menu). It has been helpful for reducing local noise, and typically drops noise by approximately 2 S-units.

  • WX7Y
    WX7Y Member ✭✭✭

    The Timewave ANC-4 Antenna Noise Canceler is great unless you have a 6600 or 6400 which they left off the LOOP ports which was a big mistake in my opinion UNLESS I missing something, couldn't have been that there wasn't enough space on the back panel on such a huge case.

    I use the ports for the Filters and a Daisy chained Receiver overload devices which if your in close proximity like a multi radio contest or a near by neighbor running a lot of Power is a necessity to protect your receiver over and above what the Radio provides.

    I have both the 6700 and 6600 and sure would be nice to have had the LOOP through's on the 6600 like the 6700 has.

  • BG5ILX
    BG5ILX Member, Unconfirmed
    FLEX has a very high noise floor, and I still like traditional machines
  • Brent61
    Brent61 Member
    KF4HR Could you post more information or even a picture of how you put the ANC-4 into the antenna loop. I read on the Timewave site that you should turn off the ANC-4 when you tune your antenna. Do you do this with having it in the loop? I have a 6500 and I think the ANC-4 will help me out a lot.

    Thanks
  • KF4HR
    KF4HR Member ✭✭

    Hi Brent61. There's not much to it. You'll need two PL-259 (male) to BNC (male) coax jumpers. Here's what I used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D1BJM22/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    One Jumper goes from the "Rx Ant A In" BNC Connector on your Flex, to the ANC-4 "RADIO" Connector (J2)

    The other jumper from "Rx Ant A Out" BNC Connector on your Flex, to the ANC-4 "MAIN ANTENNA" Connector (J3)

    After you adjust the ANC-4 for minimal noise, leave the ANC-4 Power On. To activate (or by-pass) the ANC-4, click on the LoopA button on the SmartSDR screen. The LoopA button is found under the ANT Menu on the side of the SmartSDR screen.

    Hope this helps.

    KF4HR

  • KF4HR
    KF4HR Member ✭✭

    Brent61 - One other comment I forgot to mention. Much of the performance of the ANC-4 will depend the Noise Antenna you use. I found the short Noise Antenna that comes with the ANC-4 not very useful. My suggestion is to experiment with different lengths of wire (ideally wire lengths that are non-resonate on the ham bands) for your Noise Antenna to maximize the ANC-4's performance. The idea being, you want your Noise Antenna to maximize capture of noise, while minimizing the amplitude of wanted signals.

    GL

    KF4HR

  • KD0RC
    KD0RC Broomfield, COMember ✭✭✭

    What I do with my ANC-4 is loop the noise antenna around the known noise producers in my shack. Lets me get a really good null on them. I still need to do something about some noise from my neighbor's house. I think I will put a short dipole along my fence to see how that works. I originally put a long wire out, but it was on my deck in parallel with my G5RV, and it picked up too much desired sig and not enough noise. Always a work in progress...

    I do not have loop connectors on my 6400, so the output of my 6400 goes straight to the ANC-4. The antenna side of the ANC-4 then goes to the input of my amp. That way I never put more than 100 watts into it (it is designed to tale up to 250 W).

    73,

    Len, KD0RC

  • KF4HR
    KF4HR Member ✭✭

    Len - I've been noticing that different Noise Antennas seem to work better on some bands than others. Something I may do is try using several different types (and lengths) of noise antennas, connect them to a remote RF switch so so I can remotely select between different Noise Antennas as needed.

    I'm not familiar with the 6400 but that's interesting the 6400 doesn't have loop connectors. As you probably know the ANC-4 has a -6db insertion loss. This becomes apparent when connected to my Rx A Loop, but thankfully, in most cases, the advantage of reducing noise outweighs the ANC-4's insertion loss.

    I've never run RF power through my ANC-4. Just curious, when you run RF through the ANC-4 are you having to contend with the -6db insertion loss when transmitting (reduced power output through your ANC-4?), or does the ANC-4 go into bypass when you transmit?

    KF4HR

  • KD0RC
    KD0RC Broomfield, COMember ✭✭✭

    The ANC-4 does go into bypass on transmit. The 6 dB loss almost kept me from buying one until I realized that it was actually an advantage. On no bands, 160 - 6 do I ever use 32 dB of RF gain. On the lower bands, I run -8 dB and need more attenuation so the additional 6 dB is welcome. Sensitivity with these radios is certainly not the problem. In a noisy environment (including atmospherics), the issue is getting enough attenuation.

    An antenna switch for the noise antennas is a great idea. You can even parallel them without degrading performance, but you can wind up with the situation where nulling one noise source peaks another. As long as the noise peaks are not at the same frequency, this is not really a problem, it just means fiddling with the phasing control more.

    73,

    Len

  • Some good information from W8JI on several noise cancellers, including the ANC-4 and MFJ1026 (he designed the MFJ1025/1026 and DXE NCC-1):

    http://lists.contesting.com/archives//html/Topband/2013-11/msg00249.html

    https://www.w8ji.com/mfj-1025_1026.htm

    I have the DXE NCC-2, which is the follow-on to the NCC-1 and adds internal TR switching. It works very well in attenuating locally generated noise. The NCC-2 manual contains good information on antenna configuration:

    https://static.dxengineering.com/global/images/instructions/dxe-ncc-2_jh.pdf

    Howard

  • Bill N3HQB
    Bill N3HQB Member ✭✭

    Which Flex 6000 series transceivers have the RX-in, RX-out BNC connectors for inserting ANC-4 and other Receive peripherals? I know the 6500 and 6700 have them.

  • KF4HR
    KF4HR Member ✭✭

    Bill, to the best of my knowledge the 6400/M and 6600/M rigs only have the Rx-In connector. Looks like FRS decided to drop the Rx-Out jack(s) on these rigs.

    Butch

  • WX7Y
    WX7Y Member ✭✭✭

    I am sure at least on my two radios, 6700 and 6600M the 6700 DOES have the BNC RX loop and the 6600M DOES NOT.

    So I doubt the 6400 has them.

  • KF4HR
    KF4HR Member ✭✭
    edited January 29

    Bret, I also agree it was a mistake for FRS to drop the Rx Loops on the newer models. I suspect the reason why FRS added this option to the 6500 and 6700 was so owners could have the option to add external 7th Order Contest Filters (assuming they were needed). But I'm guessing FRS dropped Rx Loops in the 6600/6600M models because they didn't consider owners would want or need to add after-market Noise Reduction devices.

    I'm dating myself but these after-market noise reduction boxes such as the ANC-4 and NCC-2 remind me when Speech Processor devices first came out years ago, as after-market external devices. It didn't take too long before manufacturers incorporated the Speech Processing feature as standard equipment. Perhaps we'll eventually see the same scenario play out as new SDR software revisions improve NR, NB, and Diversity Phasing adjust. Hope so.


    Butch KF4HR

  • Erik Carling
    Erik Carling Member ✭✭

    BG5ILX said "FLEX has a very high noise floor, and I still like traditional machines"


    Is this true really? Are you sure you have optimized the receiver - preamps or lack of, AGC vs AGCT, filters, etc?


    Erik EI4KF

  • WX7Y
    WX7Y Member ✭✭✭

    Hello Erik

    My 6700 and 6600M have VERY LOW noise floor in my location, what some people are calling higher noise floor is the local noise generated by there own location and their "traditional machines" just are not capable of having a way to measure it accurately.

    Perhaps he is talking about the so called S meter reading, my S meter on my FLEX (Calibrated S meter) shows S4-5 compared to my Yaesu FT897 (Uncalibrated) S meter only reads S1 or 2 and changes with the Pre-AMP can't really say it is correct.

    The FLEX even with a S meter at S4-5 which does NOT change with the Pre-AMP settings the actual noise floor on the pan-adapter is -115DB and this is on 80 meters and I have measured this with my IFR spectrum Analyzer and the flex is correct with both set for the same bandwidth.

    Talking about AGC vs AGCT, there is absolutely NO comparison and the AGCT works very well for bringing out the desired signal out of the noise where AGC just raises and lowers the total gain of the receiver.

    Not sure just what BG5ILX was referring too so it is hard to comment further.

  • Erik Carling
    Erik Carling Member ✭✭

    Thank you, Bret. His comment concerned me as I intend to puchase a 6400M when that model becomes available again in Europe (outside of the UK which is no longer a viable source due to Customs Duty). I didn't think it could be correct, as I interpreted it anyway, so its good of you to respond with the facts. 73 de Erik EI4KF.

  • Bill N3HQB
    Bill N3HQB Member ✭✭

    There would be no reason to return to RX-in, RX-out hardware loop to accommodate phasing devices like the ANC-4 if that superb noise-eliminating capability could be inserted internally in the receive chain on the receive side of the internal t/r switch, and phasing accomplished inside the black box with software. There are existing hardware paths to connect a noise antenna...just saying.

    By the way, I currently use two of the original ANC4's cascaded, one with an indoor noise antenna, and the other with an outdoor noise antenna. When the situation arises, I can usually null the noise, or multiple noise sources, with one or the other or both. The downside is that there is some signal attenuation, but the tradeoff can be accommodated by inserting an external broadband HF preamp (DX Engineering) in the same receive loop, or compensating with internal preamp and/or AGC-T. Although the ANC-4 has internal RF sensing t/r switching protection, which works particularly well on the carrier in AM transmission, it does not do so well in SSB transmit mode, so I have an MFJ external t/r switch in line for additional flexibility. I would gladly dispense with these workarounds in exchange for the solution contemplated in the first paragraph of this post.

  • KD0RC
    KD0RC Broomfield, COMember ✭✭✭

    Hi Bill, I do think the hardware loop would be valuable. I have an ANC-4 to reduce or eliminate unwanted local signals. These do not necessarily have the characteristics of noise that can be reduced with NR, NB or WNB - they look like legitimate signals to the radio. So I don't think any magic that Flex might come up with will eliminate this kind of interference.

    I do like your idea of cascaded ANC-4 units. I have been doing something similar with my single unit (with mixed results...). I have the noise antenna wrapped around my in-shack noise makers (modem, router, etc) then clipleaded on to a wire stretched out across my deck. The intent is to pick up local and not so local interference. I can typically tune for one or the other. If the offending signals are separated in frequency, this works OK. If they coincide, I can only tune out one or the other.

    It is too bad that Timewave does not put a low noise 6 dB preamp in their units to provide a net gain of 0 dB. I guess this could be easily added to the unit, but I have not been motivated to do so.

    73,

    Len, KD0RC

  • John KB4DU
    John KB4DU Member ✭✭✭

    The internal noise floor of the flex is very low, well below the external noise, which varies by location. Almost all of our hf radios have lower noise and more sensitivity than we can use due to external noise.

  • Bill N3HQB
    Bill N3HQB Member ✭✭

    Low noise is the reason I'm a Flex user.

    Phase noise elimination takes low noise to nearly no noise.

    With good receive antennas, I mostly leave AGC-T on zero.

  • Dan Trainor
    Dan Trainor Member ✭✭
    edited February 14

    Apache Labs Anan 7000/8000 DLE Radios and Software (and also SDRPlay RSP-Duo) has Diversity noise reduction built-in, such you don't need an external noise phasing unit. This is the state of art today. The software has a circular phasing window that allows you to adjust the amplitude and phasing with a mouse drag. You set-up a separate noise receiving antenna and it is phased against your main antenna. Also with the Anan, if you place it into NR2 mode, with the advanced algorithms, the local noise source is virtually eliminated. You have to actually hear this first hand to actually believe it. It is truly amazing. I heard it on a friends radio. Flex is behind in the NR category. I hope someday they will catch up. This capability is now mainstream.

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