Profile Auto Save Discussion

Eric-KE5DTO

We hear you.  Some of you don't like the Profile Auto Save feature.  I'd like to learn a bit more about what it is that you don't like. 

First, I want you to understand what prompted the change.  We had enough problems related to "losing" settings after they had set them up that we felt like we needed to change how this worked.  The scenario would go like this: They would load up a profile, then go change some settings and get things set just the way they wanted.  But they would forget to go save the profile.  Then they would change bands and end up on another profile.  What they didn't realize is that by not saving the profile, the changes would not be saved.  So when they returned, the original profile is loaded with all of their changes lost.  Bummer.  This was a common scenario and it played out over and over on our helpdesk.

So we sat down and put our heads together to figure out what we could do to help address this issue.  We thought through the scenarios of what people usually do with profiles and compared how changing settings works with other rigs.  The net of all of that is that most radios save changes to settings as soon as they are made and not surprisingly, most operators expect this behavior, barring any previous experience with our profiles.

What we came up with is the new Profile Auto Save feature initially rolled out in v3.0 (also included in v2.5 which will be released very soon).  The Auto Save feature works on both Transmit and Mic Profiles (but not Global Profiles, which are snapshots -- at least not directly. keep reading).  By allowing the user to create a profile based on the current settings, it allows easy creation of backup profiles (to return to if they don't want experimental changes to taint their setup).  And it saves changes to the associated parameters like output power and mic gain.  The net effect is that you can still return to a pristine profile if you like at any time and yet auto save keeps you from having to remember to save your profile and ultimately losing settings.

Note that if you want to keep your pristine profiles pristine, you should load them, then immediately create a derivative profile.  In other words, they are just a starting point that you use as opposed to a profile you actually operate with.


So that's where things were up until this weekend where I sat down and spoke with a customer at the Dayton Hamvention and had him explain what he didn't like about the Auto Save feature.  He was able to explain what bothered him.  Basically, we have trained the customers to use profiles (both Transmit and Global) and they are using them.  However, when they use load Global Profile called "40m CW HP", they expect the power to be set for their amp.  But the Global Profile is simply going to load the associated Transmit Profile and if the last use on that profile ended up bumping the power up, this can turn into a problem (e.g. they load the 40m CW HP Global Profile and key up to find that they have transmitted 100W into their amp -- not good).

So this is something that we will be discussing.  We would like to hear from you about other scenarios like this that have caused you problems with the new Auto Save functionality.  It is admittedly a different way of doing things and change can be hard.  I do think there are advantages to the way it works now in terms of not losing settings that many operators expect to be saved.  On the other hand, we aren't perfect and don't know it all.  So I'm sure we can improve on how it works.

To answer the question: Yes, we do care.  Yes, we are listening.  It is because we are listening that this change was implemented.


Note: For the sake of keeping this conversation clean, responses such as "I just don't like it" are likely to be removed.  We are looking for operational scenarios that describe specifically what it is that causes problems when using Auto Save.  It also helps if the responses are civil. 

Steven WA8Y

Thanks Eric, at least we know you're listening.

Paul Bradbeer

Thanks for the explanation, Eric. You describe a functionality change that was effected because some people forgot to save their profiles after they made changes, and it caused them problems.

You're right that you have 'trained us' how to use profiles (e.g. 6m Dig QRO), and lots of us like(d) it! The trouble is, the new autosave breaks the fundamental tenet of Profiles (for many of us anyway)...a rock solid reference point of a group of settings...which we want/need to be repeatable, consistent and Persistent!  

I cant see how the 'advantage' of autosaving ('cos some people forget to do it), outweighs the long-standing...and you're right... 'trained' behaviour which is (was) so good at maintaining the all-important persistent, recallable reference point.

Please, either revert it back to how it was before, or at least give us the opportunity to turn autosave off.

Finally, and I don't mean to be 'cute'...I haven't detected a groundswell of users on the Community that wanted this in the first place, so how/why was this prioritised for V3 when there was so much that has been asked for/discussed?

Thanks for the chance to engage on this.

Paul M0CVX

WX7Y

Thank you Eric for the great explanation of what to expect in your detailed explanation of the Profiles, The only thing I was worried about is the output power for those of us running AMP's that take a lower power level to drive them. 

Also a different topic, I  looked at the manual last night and also like the NEW Transmit window, the only thing I think is missing from there is a automatic  AMP and Barefoot power setting that could toggle with the RCA PTT 's or other LAN keying command kind of like DDUTIL's Auto Power settings.

Thanks for the great work you guys do and patience you have for us all.

73's
Bret
WX7Y

Tom W3FRG

Eric,

I can understand how some have a hard time learning how to create and use the Profiles. I know, I was confused for a while till the light went on.
This "Auto Save" definitely allows users to create Profiles on the fly.
Another reason you don't have to read the manual, wow.

This is an excerpt from a recent posting I made.

Its not the fact that you can go back and reload your saved profiles. I can't go back and reload my blown devices due to this oversight by FRS.

Currently the Tx levels are saved in the Profile. If the Tx level is changed by some error and you transmit into an LDMOS amp that's expecting 5 watts MAX and it gets > than spec you can pop the devices.
Using SSDR this is harder to mess up but, in using the radio alone, as I adjust the Mike gain I can also readjust the RF Power setting, with just by the slip of a finger. If I don't catch that, I'm in deep yogurt. I monitor the Power setting under the word MENU constantly whenever I reset any setting.

An option to turn the Profile Save ON/ OFF is required.

My Amp is set to prevent any overdrive, ALC is NOT used, and in my mind this Option just allows for an additional error happening.

That's why the majority want the Tx Profile to be set at the required level and not changed by some operational error that has been opened up by this newly added option.

Greatly appreciate your taking the time to look into this issue deeper.

Tom W3FRG

Roger_W6VZV

Thanks Eric.  I am a huge fan of Flex and love my 6400M.  However the Flex is much more complex than other rigs that I have used in 50 years of ham radio.  Plus the things that I do, i.e. setting the rig up for the digital modes, for SSTV, etc., require a lot of specialized settings.  As a result, Profiles has been a lifesaver.  Once I get things set up SO THAT THEY WORK, I like to save a Profile.  Once I go back on the air, I need to know that that Profile has not been changed SO THAT THINGS STILL WORK when I go back to it.
Part of the hobby is fiddling around and experimenting.  When I am doing that, I NEVER want the "fiddling around" to affect my Profile unless I consciously want to make the "fiddling" permanent, which is rare.  My notion is that I rarely or never want to change a Profile once I get it set up right.  If I need a new Profile, that's fine.  If I want to modify a Profile, that is a fairly rare occurrence that obviously I am not going to forget to do.
Particularly for newer Flex users, making Profiles volatile is a very bad idea and I really really hope Flex will return to the old setup.
de Roger W6VZV

KC2QMA_John

Hello Eric,

Here are my basic issues with Auto Save.

First, I will have to create backup profiles with a different name so I don’t overwrite my main files, but I do that now so no big deal but basically a lot more file management to deal with now with v2.5/3.0. Also new Auto Save feature will cause me to constantly have to re load my profiles each time I start using the radio to make sure everything is set the way I like.

Here is just one simple example of why I don’t like “Auto Save”, Say you are using the Maestro its very easy to bump into knobs or buttons and mess up your settings during a long contest or session without even knowing it. Now to make sure everything is back to where you want it the next time you use the radio you now have to go and re load your backup profile and remember to rename so you don't overwrite that file. Wooooohhhh..

There are many more reasons and I’m sure others will chime in.

One thing I do like about Auto Save is it's great for faster profile building.

All I can say It’s great if some users like and will use the new Auto Save feature but as you can clearly see others don’t like it and just want the option to turn it OFF.

Please just give us the option to Turn Off Auto Save then everyone will be happy and makes the feature even more flexible.

Thanks

John

Eric-KE5DTO

The evidence was overwhelming from our helpdesk.  Why that wouldn't show up here in the community, I can't say.  I suspect I could dig up threads with the issue, but would rather spend the time working toward moving forward.

The reason we addressed the issue with the v3.0 release is that we had to touch that part of the code anyways in order to support multiFLEX.

Thanks for the input.

Eric-KE5DTO

The TX1/2/3 outputs are included in the new TX Band Settings window that shows all of the bands and the associated settings.  I would recommend a TX Profile for barefoot that has these turned off.

Michael Wheatley

Thank you Eric for listening and for your description of the rational for this new behavior.  Be that as it may, at this point I do not want autosave and I will not migrate to v2.5 or v3 (which I was planning to purchase as soon as my 3rd party software supports it).  Let me explain:

I have a 6400 and an Elecraft KPA500 amp.  I depend upon DDUtil to autodrive my amp and to manage RF settings when I switch bands or move back and forth between standby and operate with
the amp.

Mostly I use my 6400 for FT8, FT4, JS8Call and other digital modes.  But I sometimes switch from DIGU on the 6400 to SSB to catch a conversation I see in the waterfall.  Then I switch back to DIGU to resume my normal operation.

Before I started to use profiles in SSDR I had a lot of trouble maintaining the persistence of my DAX and DAXIQ settings when I powered off the 6400 and powered it back on again and as I switched between bands.  I opened a support ticket about this (#30519) and corresponded with Tim Ellison about the issue.  Before the issue was resolved, I found that I could preserve my desired settings by using profiles.  So I saved a Mic profile, a TX profile for each band and a Global profile for each band.

Now when I power on the 6400 I just load a Global profile for the band I want and I'm set.  To change bands, I simply load another Global profile.  I can change to SSB and back, I can change transmit levels, I can use DDUtil to turn on my amp and it sets the correct RF power level .... everything works just fine.

But with the new autosave profile function, I will need to:
   - load my desired Global profile when I power on the radio
   - save it to a garbage profile
   - load a new Global profile when I switch bands
   - save it to a garbage profile
etc, etc, etc.

Sounds like an extra step that I don't need.  But it's more than a simple click of the mouse.  To save the Garbage profile I need to:
   - select Transmit in the Profile Manager,
   - change the current profile name to Garbage
   - save the Transmit profile
   - select Global in the Profile Manager
   - change the current profile name to Garbage
   - save the Global profile
All of this needs to be done before I start using my radio.  All of this work just to preserve the profiles I so carefully set up.  And it has to be done every time I power up the radio and every time I change bands and every time I change my settings and want to revert to my pristine profile.

A simple on/off switch on the autosave feature would solve my problem.

Michael -- KM6LHD

Eric-KE5DTO

I would recommend that you not depend on the current RF Power value to protect your hardware as it is so easy to change.  All it takes is grabbing the wrong control while operating and you could put your hardware in danger.

Instead, I would recommend using features like the Max Power setting when operating with an amp to prevent setting the power even accidentally above some point.  I would also recommend that you use separate TX Profiles for barefoot operation that doesn't enable your amp.  These steps should provide additional protection for many more scenarios than just using the RF Power setting from a profile.

Thanks for weighing in.  I appreciate the feedback.

Eric-KE5DTO

Roger -- I appreciate what you're saying and I understand the frustration.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  I suspect what you wrote here represents the views of many more.  If this is the case, please do like this post.  Thanks.

Eric-KE5DTO

Good input.  Thanks John.

Tom W3FRG

Eric,

I have separate Profiles for all operating scenarios; Local & Remote with and without amp.

Each sets the Rf Pout to the required maximum settings.

I'm totally unaware of the Max Power you refer to?
Is this new in 2.5/3.0?

Tom W3FRG

Eric-KE5DTO

Michael -- thanks for the detailed explanation of how these changes affect your workflow.  That really helps to understand how this impacts you.

Paul Bradbeer

Ok Eric, I understand; it's a shame 'cos I think it is covered well in the manual. Maybe a selectable autosave on/off will serve both sides of the discussion.
I neglected to give you a 'for instance'..
On my 6400M I have a profile specially set up for driving my 6m QRO amplifier, typically 8w power out to produce 450w. Sometimes I want to temporarily drop the drive power, and in doing so, on occasion I have nudged the Mic Gain by accident....both producing changes that I do not want to be persistent. For me, having to create an extra 'derivative' in order to maintain a pristine profile just seems clunky and unnecessary.
73 Paul M0CVX

Bill -VA3WTB

hi Eric,

I think many more will say something after they upgrade to 2.5. I am waiting to find out what all the hoopa is about but I am getting a good picture as to what is going on.

I think the last few comments will likely be the most common thoughts. User cases.

Perhaps the auto save feature is a good idea after all, but not the way it is implemented now.

Instead of puting the auto save at the new panel, keep it off by defult and make it so it can be turned on to change a profile setting on the fly.  And put the auto save feature in the old creat profile section, in the profiles pull down menue. so when you want to creat a new profile it auto saves. The way it works now you have to press a save button, remove that and just auto save right there.

This way, people can see all their settings on the new panel in one place,,and that's a great feature I think, but let us make changes to the settings there and only click save if we want to.

--This gives auto save for new profiles and not worrie about forgetting to save, as you mentioned is a real problem reported by the Help Desk.

-- It gives more flexibility to the use of the settings panel feature by not making it auto save but have the option to save settings in the settings panel.

-- This keeps the use of profiles we all are used to.

Tom W3FRG

Setting the MAX Power is slightly helpful, but I need it set from 5 to 25 watts depending on band in use. Plus if I want to operate barefoot I have to revert back to setting Max Power or choose the correct profile for barefoot.

Tom W3FRG

Cal N3CAL

My concerns are the same as Paul!   I don't like the idea about creating additional "scratch" profiles.  I was happy with the way Profiles were before V3 .  It actually took allot of time for me to get them the way I wanted and it's very aggravating to have them lost / changed so easily! From time to time I may make quick changes that I don't want to be persistent!   Just allow me to chose to turn this function on or off. 

Cal/N3CAL

Cal N3CAL

Until V3 came along my TX Levels were all maintained by DDutil.  Never had an issue. 

Cal/N3CAL

Gary NC3Z

This is exactly what I was going to say, and what has happened to me.

I also had a compounded problem of memories recalled overwritting the power by band,  which I thought was related to the auto-save. But it was a bug and was addressed in the new release notes.

Don Cunningham

Eric,
I don't do Facebook or any other social media, so cannot "like" posts.  I do, however agree with what Roger said above.  I'm too old fashioned not to have a radio come on each day the same way, unless I changed some parameter permanently and saved it.   I may make changes "on the fly" to experiment, and/or handle something currently happening, but if I want that change the next time I fire up the rig, it should be my responsibility to remember to save it or deal with the consequences, as I have to do with my radio with knobs and menus!  I would also prefer to turn this "feature" on or off as I desire, not have the issue decided for me.  Feel free to remind me of that statement if I ever turn in a help desk ticket for having done this, HI.
Thanks,
Don, WB5HAK.  

K3SF

I concur with Paul and Cal.  The ability to Turn /OnOff this 'feature' would resolve the base issue of profile being a 'constant' setup you can count on.

That it is one you dont typicaly tweek and if I do tweek, then i usually will save it a specially derived profile and name it accordingly.


Paul K3SF

Jon_KF2E

Don,

I think Eric meant to click the like under the posts you like here in the community, not on other social media.

Don Cunningham

Thanks, John.  I guess I wasn't logged into the community and couldn't do that before.  Did I say I was old??  :-) 
Don

Jon_KF2E

Eric,

Is there any chance that whatever the fix is for profiles it will be ported to V2? This is a big enough problem for me to not upgrade to V2.5 and I really hadn't planned to buy V3 since I don't need multiflex.

David Decoons, wo2x

Yes, DDUtil AutoDrive works great. When DDUtil is enabled it sets power out per band and enables the TX1 line. When DDUtil is in standby it sets power to 100 watts and disables TX1 line.

Hopefully K5FR will release a new version with V3 and V2.5 compatibility

It would be nice as WX7Y suggested to have this functionality in SmartSDR so you can have a QRO and QRP power setting which follows TX1 line.

Dave wo2x

Logan KE7AZ

I agree with the earlier comments about Profiles being sacrosanct unless explicitly saved.  As stated by others, many hams, like myself, like to "tinker" and it is nice to have a "back to baseline" capability.  As noted earlier, it can be done by creating "throwaway profiles" but the workflow involves lots of steps which I think are cumbersome, especially after midnight.

I also agree with the need for an "Autosave On/Off" button.  I have experience with an unrelated application that is used by several hundred hams for message passing during an emergency response.  It, too, had multiple profiles and we also struggled with the autosave question.  Our solution consisted of three Autosave options: Always, Prompt, Never, that were on a setup tab.  This solution solved the problem for this application.  Something similar might work for SmartSDR.

Logan, KZ6O

Steve

Seems like LOTS of people want the option to save or not, put me on the list.  All applicable reasons have already been mentioned and I agree.  PSDR had multiple options to deal with profiles.  Not understanding programming is this a lot of work??  Anyway thanks for asking for opinions

Duane N9DG

I too would likely get into trouble with the autosave functionality as it exists now. I actually use the global profiles almost exclusively, and view them as being super duper memories. Has worked well for me these last few years.

I also really like the idea of a 3 level - Always, Prompt, Never - approach user saving choice options, and have it be defaulted to Prompt. And also the Prompt choice be able to provide the option of doing a "Save As" in addition to simply updating the existing profile. That would be very handy when creating new profiles from existing ones, and wanting to keep both the original and the new one.

Dick / KC9YRA

Eric

Thanks for responding to this Auto Save issue.  We all have our reasons for like or dislike of the auto save feature.  We each have our reasons for creating a profile, how we use it and when we want to save it.  I fall on the dislike side.  I have about 30 different Global and 30 Transmit profiles created.  I mainly operate digital modes with low power (10w). The Transmit profiles are tailored for each Band and each Mode of operation.  I have just few Microphone profiles.  I use these profiles to switch between bands and modes rapidly.  Knowing that The Radio will be ready to operate when the profile is loaded is a comforting.  I do make changes to transmit profiles on the fly, but usually do not want to save them as they are temporary.  Having to reload the original saved profile is time consuming with the auto save feature.

When exiting SSDR or changing to a different profile.  Give us the flexibility to choose whether to save or not to save.  Use the standard pop up window that’s used in many applications when changes are detected.  “Do you want save Changes YES or NO”. It seems the Transmit and Microphone name adds a * in front of the name so it knows that a change has occurred.  This would allow us as operators to decide if we want to save the changes or not.  That would satisfy both likes and dislikes.

**** KC9YRA