Heatsinks are falling off in 6400 and 6600 models.

W8QB

Thanks Tom.  I'm confident you'll have your radio back up and running in short order!

Gordon, ve7on

Would it not be better to leave both heat sinks on with a cable tie around the board for security?

I would think the cooling would be improved.

Wayne

The first 4 pictures are before pictures when I opened the 6400M The next 2 pictures are after I attached the wiretie one of the board and the 2nd of the board after it was plugged back in. The last picture just one of my latest tcl 43" 4k hd monitor above the rig in the shack. There is only 1 adc heatsink in the 6400M since there is only 1 adc board and 1 scu.

Robert Lonn

I have a Fluke Thermal Imaging Camera,  So I hope to open it up and take a picture of these Chips to see how they are doing with the revised heat sink design...

Wim

Good idea Gordon, I think I will do it like that

Bill -VA3WTB

These chips work just fine without any cooling at all, no harm will come to them. in many cases in their applications a heat sink is not used as they do not get very warm, never hot.

When they are used in a Flex radio, they are used in a very sensitive application.
The only reason Flex uses heat sinks is for the needs of the radio. It must stay under a certain temp to allow the best performance of the radio. any cooler temp other than the target running temp has little to no benefit. So it has been determined that the corrective action allows for much more cooling then needed.

Wayne

Ok if that is true Bill then why is flex providing a larger heatsink in the PEN kits following what you are saying indicates the performance of my rig will be negatively affected by installing the larger heat sink. Now Im getting confused with conflicting information from flex and yourself, someone official from flex needs to provide the real explanation.

Bill -VA3WTB

I did not say that a larger heat sink would be negative. I said running cooler then what is need heads little value. So the fix they have is more then is needed for top performance.

Wayne

Sorry Bill thats what old age seems to bring I sometimes see more or less than what is actually said when I see words between the lines ... hi hi

Bill -VA3WTB

Me too, I have to read things over and over sometimes..lol

Rick WN2C

What I don't understand is why Flex didn't just send out some heat sink compound to re=attach the original heat sink. How does putting a heat sink on the bottom of the board better than on top of the chip? 

Robert Lonn

At some point in time you have to place your trust in the Engineers at Flex.. They decided to do it this way for many reasons I am sure. Some are engineering, some at Business decisions and some are customer service related.. I think what is worth mentioning is that Flex has responded FAST to this problem,, And they are taking care of it for their customers..

As many of you have read, Heat Sink are falling off on the new Icom IC-7610 radio... Lets see how Icom responds to this.. They are just now beginning to gather serial numbers of the affected radios,, However only those who read the blog will even know about it,, I am sure their are hundreds if not thousands world wide who have no idea what is going on..

Flex notified all its customers , all of them and that is what first class customer service is.. My experience with Yaesu, Icom and Kenwood, is they do not do recalls or send out TSP by email.. If someone reports an issue, and it is under warranty, they just respond by telling the customer to send it to the repair center... But it is the Customer, not ICOM who must be proactive! 

Robert

Bill -VA3WTB

The epoxy is on the heat sink that is sent out, it is already applied.

Bill Roberts

I agree 110%.  The purpose of this forum is not just to heap praise on FRS.  Yet, in 54 years of hamming, I have never seen a company that works so hard to help their customers happy and successful... not even Heathkit.  

Rick WN2C

I agree that FRS is hands down the best at customer service and responsiveness to customers. I have never seen a company do what Flex has done in sending out a product enhancement notice, give you the consumer the option of how it is going to be taken care of and pay for the shipping both ways too boot! I mean who does that? 

FRED W9TB

Robert, Flex did not notify all that needed the pen . I know 4 people that got there radios before April, 12 and only one got the pen e-mail. 

Juan TG9AJR

A picture is worth a thousand words !So here it is my 6600.

Bill -VA3WTB

The other on is falling off as well, remember you can put a tiny bit of heat sink compound on them and put them back on with plastic tie wraps till you new parts come in.

Jon_KF2E

When the heatsink fell off of mine the radio went deaf. S9+10 noise across the whole band. I was skeptical of the new heatsink fixing the issue, especially with the new one being on the back of the board with the board between it and the chip. After all, how good of a conductor is a fiberglass board? That said, with the new heatsinks in place it seems to be working.

KC2QMA_John

Can the heatsinks cause a short if they land on the circuit board below while the power is on?

Bill -VA3WTB

Yes it is possible, that is one of the dangers.

Bill-N6RV

First, I amazed that the first heat sink is glued onto the chip. How about a compression mount with thermal grease? The board should be redesigned and they should recall the radios and replace the boards. You do not know the thermal impedance of the PC board material and there are not enough via holes to make much of difference in the total thermal impedance. It probably is so high that the heat sink on the back is ineffective. The device temperature will rise to an unacceptable level. It will not shed the heat. Consider amplifier chips that are mounted on a bar and then mounted on a heat spreader. That is good thermal design. Also consider computer chips. The heat sink is integral to the chip not glued on.

An acceptable level is a level where, when at the top of the specified outside operating temperature, at end of life, the A/D performance does not degrade the sensitivity. Right now I am looking at both antenna ports (Ant 1 & Ant 2) of my 6600M and there is a 35dB difference in the noise in a 500Hz bandwidth measured with the S meter dBm level, with no antenna connected! The heat sink on antenna 1 has fallen off and the A/D has degraded the performance by 35dB! Has the chip been damaged by the temperature rise. It must be to have degraded the performance by 35 dB!

If you have a noise floor problem check one antenna input against the other. If there is a difference it is the heat sink!!!! Even if the heat sink has not fallen off it may be loose and you will see a difference in noise floors.  Comment on this post with your findings. It will be interesting what the differences between the two antenna ports are.

Bill -VA3WTB

These chips will not damage without a heat sink. In many other devices were they are used the heat sinks are commonly left off.

Only that these chips are used in the Flex in a very sensitive place they need to run at a target temp in order to perform at their best when used in the radio for this application.

If the correct epoxy was used from the start none of this conversation would have happened.

Because it has happened, some are suggesting that Flex engineers do not know what they are doing.

The mounting of these chips are a common practice in the electronics industry more and more.

In the way Flex has decided to mount the the new heat sinks on the back is perfectly fine. The cooling is not dependent on holes on the board. The heat from the chip is picked up from the pin connections on the back of the chip.

These chips do not get very warm, It does not take very much to cool them.

Wayne

I would think it would not be unreasonable if your rig was affected already by the heatsink coming off to expect that the adc boards would be totally replaced with new modified adc boards off the assembly line to assure reliability and a normal mtbf and life of the adcs. Any electronic component which has been overheated should not be reused to ensure mtbf. When yaesu had the 991a finals issue not only did they replace them but they now give a 3 year warranty on the 991's. Those rigs that have not been affected yet should be fine by just having the modification kits done. Im so glad I checked mine and found it attached still and used a wire tie to securely hold it in place.

Wayne

Bill if the heatsinks for the chips are left off for so many other applications I dont understand why they are so necessary and if they are so necesary then its more than prudent to say the chips when heated must have been affected or damaged if the symptoms we are seeing cause the radio to go deaf. Its kinda like overheating your engine and causing the block to **** after it cools down the engine will still run buts its no longer reliable with the white smoke coming out. Of course the adcs dont have smoke coming out but there is no way to determine the internal damage thats been done to the adc by being overheated.

mikeatthebeach .

Like to see what the top of the A/D chip temp is in deg C is with and without 
backside heatsink to really see if PEN heatsink thru the PCB high
thermal resistance is really effective 

Hope the MTBF is not affected, in Semi-World Reliability Talk, every 10deg C
rise above SOA temp can cut MTBF hours in half in GaAs & GaN, not sure 
what it is in Silicon.

A big concern is that the BGA for the A/D chips  is subjected to more Temperature swings between on & off cycles to be a reliability MTBF issue if Temp is not carefully controlled within the SOA specifications of the A/D

Bill -VA3WTB

In most industry applications were they are used, the running temp is not critical as long as they work.

But in the case of how Flex uses them they have to be kept at a target temp in order to perform as Flex needs them to.

The ADC circuit is very temp sensitive in the Flex.

Gerald mention the other day that the lack of a heat sink will not damage the chip.

Jon_KF2E

Bill, I'm curious what your background is that you are an authority on heat dissipation and it's affect on the ADC.

Wayne

Ok Bill, I will not respond to this post further since there is nothing I have to add that would be positive. Thanks for the reply.

Bill -VA3WTB

I spent several hours tracking down, this ADC chip and found it used in the electronics industry, there locations, needs. and mounting. thermal needs.

Most of what I said are also things mentioned from Flex, read carefully.

Gerald said, these chips get warm, but will never damage without a heat sink.