pre-purchase: Reviews and comparison, 6600 vs. Icom 7610 ?

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

I am still trying to decide if I will purchase a Flex-6600 or an Icom-7610 in ~30 days.   Now that the 6400 and 6600 have been shipping a while, I was hoping to find more than 5 really short reviews on eham.net.  There are 48 for the Icom 7610.   I also tried googling for Flex 6600 vs. Icom 7610 comparison, but could not find anything.     Does FRS themselves have any comparison literature from their marketing department?   (I had thought with ham-vention coming up, that perhaps maybe some good competitive sales/marketing info had been put together?)

Since each of us has different usage patterns and different focuses in the hobby, there is really no "Better or Worse" rig, but there *IS* the one that matches more of the features that matter to you specifically.   If I could find some detailed reviews, or a detailed feature comparison, it could help me decide which rig matches more of my specific "tick boxes", for example.

I am aware, from others of you here (thanks), that the 30 days try-or-return policy exists.
Call me slow, but it takes me more than 30 days to vet all the features in a new cell phone, let alone an amazingly complex SDR radio.  So I simply prefer to learn what I can from FRS and new owners here before pulling the trigger.

I really really wish that Flex had a volunteer referral database of Ham's in each zip code willing to answer questions or demo their rig.  Short of putting a few rigs at radio stores or demo sites, that would really help.  I  would LOVE to speak with a 6600 owner on the phone, or visit one for a demo.   The least they could do would be to set up a west coast and east coast demo location so people could drop by a see one in action.

Thanks for being patient with me :-)

Neal  -  N6YFM

Steve

I am primarily an AM operator and so Hi-Fidelity is important to me.  I understand this is not so for lots of people and they are content with good communications grade audio.  Which is fine, after all it really is all that is necessary.  When Icom came out with the 7300 I bought one to try out.  I had been operating a Flex and wanted to see what the "Buzz" was all about.  The 7300 is a GREAT radio at a good price and appeals to lots of people, BUT "it ain't no Flex" .  SDR is the way to go and you will not find all of the "Flexabiility" in the Icom that you can get from a good SDR, Flex or others.  When I was playing with the 7300 one of the  first things that stuck me was their view of EQing???  Come on bass and treble you gotta be kidding me.  I tried to look at the specs for the 7610 to see IF it had variable bandwidth and although not positive it "appears" they do not.  Sorry I am rambling...I hope you find the radio that will best suit YOUR needs.  It is part of the fun doing the research.  Get a Flex and try it out.  At least you can return it if you do not like it.  Not sure you can find any Icom dealer that will do that???  At least not without a "restocking fee".  73's

Jim Gilliam

The 7610 has a built-in server which works very very well. However, it doesn't have a panoramic display the begins to compare with the Flex. It has no panoramic display at all remoting that gives the Flex an edge. However, I like the sound of the transmit audio on the 7610 much better than that of the Flex. All of the Flelx's I have heard have a subtle scratchiness to it and never have felt their audio quite compares to the best of the other rigs. All-in-all, I still prefer the Flex.

Jim, K6QE

Elliot Skultin

7610 is closer in specs to the 6400M. There are quite a few underwhelmed reviews of the 7610. One area in particular was the difficulty accessing features. I was in the same quandary as you and i’m More than thrilled with my choice.

Duane_AC5AA

With the bands in the shape they are today, it's more of a challenge to write a truly comprehensive review.  I switched from a TenTec Orion to the 6500 about four years ago and would never go back (and that's comparing to one of the best rigs ever available regarding receiver performance and control flexibility).  I have upgraded to the Flex-6600 and am enjoying it just as much.  I have a neighbor 2 blocks away who likes to run a KW on CW or digital modes, and I can't even tell whne he's on the same band unless I see him on the panadaptor.  As far as trying one out, why not post where you live and ask if someone is nearby that you might try one out.  It won't be the same as owning one for 30 days, but you might find out quickly whether you just hate it, or maybe that you like it more than you thought you would....

Steve

I am VERY surprised to hear a comment about "scratchy" audio out of any Flex.  Perhaps they were not set up properly or **** mics??  All of us in the AM community are VERY impressed with the audio out of a flex radio.  Get a Mic preamp with phantom 48Volts hook up an B1 condenser mic to the balanced input and you WILL be amazed just using the internal EQ.  Behringer preamp is $40 bucks and the B1 mic is $99 you will be amazed.  73's 

Ken Hansen

"The least they could do would be to set up a west coast and east coast demo location so people could drop by a see one in action." "The least they could do?" No, that's actually quite a big effort - offering a thirty-day trail period in your shack with your antennas, amplifier, etc. is a perfectly fine way to market the radios. The moment Flex puts a showroom in LA and NYC you will hear countless hams complain how inconvenient it is to get there from their QTH, and if you move it other Hams will complain about the location.

Mark WS7M

Neal,

I am probably not in your area but I will be glad to answer any and all questions you might have.

My name is Mark, WS7M.  I currently own a Flex 6600.  Prior I had a 6500 an Icom 7300, flex 6300, and flex 1500.

Email me at:  ws7m@arrl.net

Until you do... Here is my take:

Recently I had to decide if I was going to upgrade to the 6600 from my 6500 or take the jump and go 7610 or even an Anan 8000.  Before I tell you more I think it is important to list my likes and dislikes:

1) I don't need knobs.  Computer interface for me is perfect as I am on the computer all day long anyway.   When I do want knobs I can use a small inexpensive DJ controller that plugs into the computer and I get all the functionality of a VFO knob and much more

2) I have long wanted to do remote.  I rarely sit in my "shack" for days on end.  I will go there, then later be in the kitchen, perhaps the great room to watch football or if it is nice out on my deck.  I do travel a little so having remote would be nice for that.   I have yet to find ANYTHING that remotes as well as the Flex radios do.  Yes there are new competitors and there are those that have remoted using remote rig for some time.  But with flex it is plug and play for the most part.

3) My op desires are CW primarily, SSB some and digital.  Flex allows me to do all of those very easily.  Remote makes digital a little more tricky but it can be done.  When I do op voice I get OUTSTANDING audio reports.

4) Programmability.  I am a software developer so having a radio I could talk to with code for little things was important to me.  While Icom has the CIV interface I had used it years ago and struggled with it.  I know people use the Anan remote but it looks harder to do.

So with those biases in mind:

In looking at the 7610 there were two big road blocks for me:  1) I'd have to switch my learning and focus on the CIV protocol which would set me back a very long time.  2) I found that the maximum tx bandwidth on that unit to be about 4k.  I could not find a way to go wider.    I also could not find a way to set the rx filter width wide open either.  One thing I like to do is gather the audio data (not I/Q) and run it through some programs I've written to look at stuff.  I like to look at very wide slices like 14k.

In looking at the Anan there were two big road blocks:  1) I was told by an anan user that I should not expect to do well using the anan on my laptop over wifi.  I do that all the time with my flex.  2) I have two friends with anans.  We spent almost 8 hours on Saturday and Sunday on the air listening to them banter back and forth about buffer sizes, various settings and it was kind of hilarious how deep it got.

Last thing for me:

I only have one piece of radio equipment sitting on my desk.  That is a Yaesu FT-991 that can do HF as a backup but mostly does UHF.

The rest of my equipment:  Flex 6600, SPE 2K-FA, PalStar HF Auto tuner sit out in a shed 25 feet away.  I don't hear the fans, I have virtually no noise at the desk.

I can completely operate all of my gear (except the FT-991A) from anywhere as long as I have a basic, reasonable internet connection.

So I made my choice to stick with Flex.  The flex folks have been very good.  When I have a problem generally this forum or FRS themselves have a solution.

I cannot say the same thing for Icom, Yaesu or Kenwood.  I had a Kenwood TS-2000 for a while that went the regional repair shop 3 times.  Each turn around was close to a month.  Often the radio came back with a different problem than it left with.  I ended up selling it for parts as I could not vouch for its ability to operate.

Email me!

Mark

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

Duane suggested that I try posting my location to see if any 6400 or 6600 owner happens to live near my area, and would be willing to let me see it operate and/or ask a few questions.
I am N6YFM, Neal Pollack, Torrance, California, (Los Angeles Area).
Info good on qrz.com bio page.   Been here in the Los Angeles region all 60 years.
N6YFM  <At }   ARRL    dot     nET

Thanks

Ken Hansen

+1 for the awesome remote capabilities of the Flex SmartSDR 2.0 I started off looking at the Flex 3000, a great radio at a great price (as a refurb from Flex), but was put off by the FireWire requirement. Then I looked at the Flex-5000 series radios, but they got expensive fast, and still had the FireWire requirement. As soon as I found I could control the Flex-6000 radios with SmartSDR over wired Ethernet at home, I was sold (my radio sits outside my den to avoid running coax in the house). When SmartSDR 2.0 added support for remote operation, I knew my decision was the right one - even though it cost me $200 to upgrade.

Duane_AC5AA

Regarding transmit audio, I just use a Heil PR-781  on the balanced input and have done some EQ shaping (roll off the bass early to offset my voice which tends to have too much bass, etc.) and I get unsolicited reports of outstanding audio.  FWIW..

Robert Lonn

Hello Neal, just did a few searches on Google Map to see a few things.. I do not see any Antennas at your house, are you using wire antennas or??? I ask this as antennas are important when digging deep into a radios performance.. Your in luck. I live here in El Cajon just east of San Diego, and would welcome a visit from a fellow ham.. However I should Warn You!!!! When you see the Flex Display up on my 50" 4K LG TV set, that may be as far as you will go in making up your mind.. Also, I have only had mine for 1 week, so I am no expert, have not even transmitted with it yet, 100% all receive, and I have not finalized setting up SmartSDR yet .. So I am very limited on showing you the meat and potatoes of the radio...
Robert  WA6PHN

Wayne

I digested all the info for the 7610 and all the early issues existing prior to the version 1.06 firmware and that info plus the incorporation of the up to date hdmi video port on the 6400M sealed the deal on my ordering the flex waiting 3 1/2 months after placing my order to get it. What do I think now after having the 6400M for 1 1/2 months ... Well the hdmi jack I just had to have has been a nightmare since day 1 and has yet to change ... the 7610 got version 1.06 and is basically bug free now .. while Im still dealing with startup inconsistancies on occasion, organizing profiles and having to manually load one each time i start the rig along with incorrect outdated docs and many yep its being tracked and oh yea thats a bug we knew about for a while now but its on our list. Although I am basically satisfied with the 6400M and like it despite all the listed issues above if I had to order a rig today I think I would get the 7610 since it would be a better fit for me now that they took care of the issues with it. The flex is still too dependent on now an internal computer that I have no way to correct the operation of and now worse yet another windows computer so now its 2 computers and 2 os's and 2 software messes or 3 or 4 if you count ios or iphone. I find I spend most of my time working with the computer instead of using the radio while im learning how all the software works since its totally different than standalone operation on the radio. Hind sight is 20/20 and a learning experience is what you get when you didnt get what you thought you wanted. I still love my flex3000 running on bootcamp win 7 on mini imac i7 with 16gb ... solid no win 7 issues and Darren making it better every week. You make your decisions and take your chances ... Your Mileage may vary ...

W8QB

Robert, greetings from one of your former neighbors, previously a resident of Santee, CA.  I was stunned to see your Flex sitting next to the treadmill.  This will be my sixth year at Hamvention.  The demographics of Hamvention mirror those of the general ham population...older guys like myself.  But too many of us attending Hamvention would be well served to spend more time on that treadmill!

Mark Wohlschlegel

Neal, call me at your convenience at 561-254-5095
Mark
WC3W

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

Hi Robert:

Re Antennas;  I do wish I had a tower, but my setup is still effective but rather invisible to google earth;   I have a Comet H-422 rotating dipole, in the V configuration.  It is on top of a 20 foot section of thick-wall 2 inch aluminum aircraft tubing attached to the roof gable of the one story house.  This puts the base of the antenna "V" at ~30 feet above the concrete, and the tips of the dipole at 42 feet.   I also use a MyAtennas.com EFHW-8010 long wire antenna.  So both of those are rather invisible from airborne view, compared to a beam antenna.   Even with these compromise antenna's for getting started in the last 2 years, I have over 5,100 contacts spanning 92 countries :-)

Cheers,

Neal

Ross - K9COX

I wonder what the response would be for the same question on an Icom forum...(I have been a satisfied Flex user for about the last 15 years)

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

I don't know since I have not posted on an Icom forum.  But so far, in one day, I am impressed with the responses here.   I have two people willing to chat on the phone tomorrow, and that already has me leaning toward the Flex purchase :-)

Neal

Wayne

Do you still have your 7610?

Johan / SE3X

Might be legal problems stopping them from implementation. As a company they probably have to take identification of the potential users and their license status and control theroff into consideration.

It's a great idea and I think it could make a great "sales tool for sure. Maybe just not that easy to do for Flex as a company?

Varistor

Why would you not ask the Icom owners? It seems that you have already made up your mind and simply seek confirmation, not being truly open minded.

Ken Hansen

There is a fundamental difference between Icom radios like the IC-7610 and the current flex offerings (at least in the United States) - I can walk into any of 13 HROs, DX Engineering, Gigaparts, Universal Radio, and probably MTC and lay hands on a 7610 before deciding to purchase one. I can only see a Flex radio at a Hamfest as no retailers currently carry Flex radios in the US. When Tesla first started selling cars it was the word-of-mouth marketing of current owners that helped push up sales numbers, now Tesla has showrooms. It's much harder for an interested consumer to 'lay hands' on a Flex Radio than an Icom IC-7610, that is why some Flex owners are willing to make their radios available to potential owners to try them out.

Robert Lonn

The Flex will move off the corner of the desk into its own designated SLOT. Have to place musical chairs with a lot of radios. All the Sony radios are now gone as is the Collins radio shown in the photo. My wife insisted that if I build a room addition onto the house for my radios, the treadmill must be in the room.. I like to listen to my radios and do my 30 minutes a day walking. The monitor will pull out from the wall 14" so the treadmill is not an issue.. 

Joseph Rodick

After purchasing and setting up my 6600M, one of my best friends that owns a 7610 came over to compare the difference of the two radio's.  Due to time I will jump to the end.  I may have lost a good friend.  There is a lot of differences between the two radio's, with Flex just taking Icom to the wood shed.   Just the AGCT adjustment on the Flex made my friend envy and wishing that he did not rush into the purchase of his Icom.  I tried to make him feel good about his 7610, but it was apparent that Flex is the far better radio in numerous areas and he left upset with himself and his purchase.  Good Luck in your purchase.

Ken Hansen

Wayne, as the 7610 was rolling out, both before and after release, it was amazing how many "potential buyers" (in quotes) declared they wouldn't even consider the 7610 for it's inclusion of an 'old technology' DVI connector, not the modern HDMI connector. The existence of $10 converters made no difference. The fact that the resolution of the video output of the 7610 was so low as to barely require anything better than a VGA port made no difference. I'm glad to see that in hindsight you are a bit more skeptical about your previous HDMI vs DVI opinions. As for the current windows issues, this too shall pass - it is frustrating now, but I expect it will be sorted out soon enough. Finally, I think the Flex 3000 is a great radio, and at well under $1K as a refurb from Flex it is a great bargain for a 100w SDR w/ Antenna tuner in a low-profile slab form. I keep thinking about picking one up and making an HF go box with the 3000, a small computer, and some slide-out display mount (like a rack KVM console, see photo)...

Ken Hansen

As a reminder, you are comparing a $3,500 Radio from Icom with a $5,000 Flex Radio. A year from now the Icom will be less than $3,000, the Flex will likely remain at $5K. That is not an inconsequential price difference for many potential buyers.

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

No, I am not. I am comparing/considering the $3999 model 6600 without front panel, to the $3599 icom 7610. Not the M version.

Steve

I think your post says it all....

Robert Lonn

But the 6400M is more in line price wise then the 6600M compared to the 7610.. I was at HRO about a month ago and saw the 7610 on display. My first impression was, this radio looks like every other Icom Radio.. Think about how you go looking for a new car.. We could spend days talking about personal preferences when it comes to a car.. My neighbor has purchased only Convertibles for the last 25 years,, I would never own a convertible, well never say never, but it would have to be a hardtop like the Lexus at $78K ,, not a rag top  Ford Mustang ..

I would compare a 7610 to a simple Apple iPad device, and the Flex to a Windows 10 Laptop computer.. iPad boots up fast, simple operation, all the apps must be a specific specification to not HOG the internal processor. A Windows 10 laptop with an i7 processor, terabit hard drive, 16GB of memory, very fast, HDMI, USB 4.0, USB "C", will support big advanced programs and have unlimited capabilities and flexibility... 

The Flex radio takes 2 minutes to boot up, no big deal, lets you select what software version you want to run, that is a feature called flexibility,, Only the Flex Engineers and software developers, working behind closed doors, in a secret room,, shielded to all outside RFI, and Satellite spy cameras, know the true potential of the radio... And paying a modes $200 to go from 2.xxxx to 3.**** in the future, no problem, Flex will spend the time and capital dollars to do that if they can get a decent return on their investment.. You get what you pay for.. Facebook is FREE!!! But they make billions! So Data Mining was no surprise to me,, We gave up our privacy a long time ago.. 

Most radios are built for today's usage, Icom, Yaesu, Kenwood, but the Flex appears to have a very bright future with what its ability can be with software enhancements.. As long as they put a lot of horsepower under the hood to allow the Firmware programming to grow, their should be a lot of exciting things to come in the future.. 

I think the 7610 group has made dozens of suggestions on improvements, why it would not do this or that.. Why it does not have a "B" VFO tuning know on the radio?? But we know ICOM rarely does much more then fix bugs.. Then they just STOP making changes..  So a lot of us are counting on Flex to continue to make changes for improved performance and add more FEATURES to the radio,, We see this with new Apple IOS and Windows 10 software.. The 7610 will never go down this path, but Flex will.. 

Robert   WA6PHN

Bill -VA3WTB

That is interesting, the M models have far more in common with the Icom radios. They both use buttons and dials and both use a screen on the radio.

I have looked at the features and capabilities of both radios and I find the Icom's fall well short of the 6400M and the 6600M, just the display alone puts the Fex at the top.

No matter what, with the Icom you lose that wonderful panadpter and detail.

Robert Lonn

This was a recent post related to the PERFECT Icom 7610,, Just that everyone can discover issues with a radio, the question is will the Factory take care of it and make it right??? We know Flex Will!!

At first I was excited and used 7610 for about 25 hours on the lower bands and it worked as noted by the prior 40+ reviews. Then I attempted a six meter contact in FM mode with another out of town radio operator and discovered the 7610 was dead on six meters. I returned the 7610 to a nationally recognized retailer who refunded my money. They also took another new 7610 out of the box, version 1.06 software, and encountered the same problem as with version 1.04. I was sorry I sold my 7600 after 9 years use, as it, along with a Kenwood TS-2000X, Yaesu FT817-ND, and FT-857D, all could hear a strong Six meter contact in Pre-Amp modes with signals 60db over S9 (pinning the S meter) whereas the Icom 7610 with Pre-Amp 1 was approximately S7 and dropped to S6 in Pre-Amp 2. Since the six meter noise floor was S7, communications on six meters was not possible. 

Both the national dealer and I worked in unison with Icom engineering department to see if the 7610’s lack of sensitivty above 24 MHz in preamp modes (either 1 or 2) could be remedied. I spoke with an Icom representative on 4/09/2018 regarding the 7610 issues on six meters and lack of sensitivity when engaging the preamps. He informed me that Icom would be issuing an errata sheet as the preamp specifications as noted on page 31 in the manual (Section 4-1) were incorrect and that these specifications were erroneously copied from the 7600 manual. He state that after conferring with Icom engineers, they are unable to “resolve my problem” and correct the upper band sensitivity issues with software.

Further, I conferred with a preeminent nationally recognized amatuer radio operator (with an engineering background) who previously posted a You Tube video on the 7610. He admitted he did not test the 7610 on six meters when he posted his video, but the morning I contacted him he had coincidently discovered earlier while attempting to engage in a six meter net that he thought his six meter Yagi was 180 degrees out! While on the phone with him he tested the 7610 for 40 minutes using his Kenwood TS-990 and a signal generator on various frequencies at and above 24 Mhz. In A-B comparison tests he confirmed that while the 7610 spectral scope depicts signal increases in Pre-amp 1 and slightly higher in pre-amp 2, the signal does not reach the audio stage. In reality there is an estimated minus (-) 2 db decrease with pre-amp 2 engaged! Now I am back in the market for an SDR radio. I might add the 7600 was phenomenal on my favorite band, 40 meters. The hand mike was superb, the SSB and CW signals seemed to pop out with less background noise, much better than with my 7600. But frankly I refuse to own a radio that does not work well above 24 Mhz. Don’t take my word for it, but those operators who read this posting, try six meters yourself in A-B test mode.

By the way, all readers need to know there is a 1/32” to 1/16” wobble on both AF/RF dual knobs before those knobs engage because each is three-way and disengages that band when depressed. This is irritating but I was willing to live with this fact until I discovered the upper band lack of sensitivity issue. 

As soon as Icom comes out with a 7612, or whatever, I will buy one as I love Icom equipment. Meanwhiile I am exploring Flex.