pre-purchase: Reviews and comparison, 6600 vs. Icom 7610 ?

John WA7UAR

Either disable transmit or give access to a 6700R — the standalone receiver.

Jerry Gardner

Neal,

I'm in the same boat as you and am trying to decide on a new rig. The only ones currently on my shortlist are the 7610 and the 6600. I'm still in wait mode because Rob Sherwood hasn't posted his report on the 6600 yet and Dayton is next week and Kenwood is supposed to announce a new rig that's rumored to be closer to the TS-990S than the TS-590SG. Whether it'll be an SDR or not remains to be seen. Even money right now is that it'll be the "TS-890" and will be SDR-based. We'll see.

Ken Hansen

This is a non-sensical "review" with multiple issues, Rob Sherwood has a long fact-laden response to this "review" that disputes the statement that this is an issue for all IC-7610s that he has submitted to eHam, but as yet has not been published.

Suffice to say, this is not a universal problem with all IC-7610, no one expects Icom to release an errata explaining that the radio is "deaf" on 6 meters, and that this reviewer claims to have documented/confirmed this issue with a national retailer, Icom support in the US, and Icom Engineering in Japan is, in a word, unbelievable.

I'll post Sherwood's response in a few moments, I'll need to look it up. 

Ken Hansen

No, you said he compared his radio, the IC-7610, to your 6600M, and the 6600M is a $5K radio

http://cart.flexradio.com/FLEX-6600M-Signature-Series-SDR-Transceiver-_p_1046.html

Since you want to change the comparison to a version of the radio you don't have, you'll have to account for the lack of a control surface on the Flex 6600 radio, let's say $500 for a modest PC and display, windows tablet, windows laptop, whatever. That makes the comparison $4,500 Flex to $3,500 Icom (which includes it's control surface), and the Icom will still go down in price over time.

Ken Hansen

Rob Sherwood's response to this 'review': Rob Sherwood May 9 Here is what I sent to eHam.net as to a review of the IC-7610. It is typical Rob Sherwood techie nerd stuff! Hi Hi I have read an eHam review of the IC-7610 that implies noise floor (sensitivity) of the 7610 is poor on 6m. I have tested the 7610, 7600 and 7300 in my laboratory. Today [last Sunday] I made some A/B comparisons between the 7300 and the 7610 using a weak router birdie, since 6 meters is currently completely dead. Note: The review in question said the 7610 is deaf above 24 MHz. I used the 7610 during the December 2017 ARRL 10m contest, and the 7610 copies very weak signals as well as any transceiver I have ever used. My 6m yagi is at 50 feet above ground, and on the west side of my garage which is west of my house. When the 6m yagi is pointed due east, towards the house at a 90 degree setting, I pickup RFI noise and router birdies from my house. As the yagi rotates to 30 degrees (NNE), the router birdies almost disappear, and at 0 degrees due north, the 6m band is absolutely quiet on either the 7610 or the 7300. As I come around west at 270 degrees, I pick up a slight amount of additional band noise, and I can just barely hear some line noise at 238 degrees. I can hear the very weak line noise slightly better on the 7610 than on the 7300. The 7300 has one preamp with two gain settings, while the 7610 has two separate preamps. The other review statement about the preamp not reaching the audio stage is misleading. Icom does not leave the rest of system gain constant as the preamps are enabled. They have chosen to keep the recovered audio level at the speaker output constant when a signal is at the receiver noise floor. Most receivers put out more and more noise as the preamps are engaged. That is what we are used to, but with DSP radios, other more sophisticated choices can be made. It should not be necessary to turn down the AF gain to keep a detected weak signal from the speaker at a constant volume as the preamps are cycled from OFF to preamp 1 and then preamp 2 Receiver noise from the 7610 goes down as the preamps are engaged, but the signal to noise ratio improves as one switches in the preamps. On 6 meters, 7610 receiver noise drops 4 dB with preamp 1 and 5.5 dB with preamp 2, all the while keeping the desired weak signal constant. Antenna noise gain is a good way to tell whether a preamp is needed on a given band. With a dead 6m band, at my QTH which is in a quiet rural location, I just measured 6m antenna noise gain. Antenna noise gain no preamp: 0.6 dB Antenna noise gain, 7610 preamp 1: 2.5 dB Antenna noise gain, 7610 preamp 2: 5.5 dB Signal and noise gain with the very weak birdie tuned in on 50.149 MHz, antenna at 30 degrees. Signal and noise gain no preamp: 1.2 dB Signal and noise gain preamp 1: 6 dB Signal and noise gain preamp 2: 8 dB Here are my noise floor measurements of the IC-7600, IC-7610 and IC-7300 on 6 meters. Rig No preamp Preamp 1 Preamp 2 7300 -131 dBm -139 dBm -140 dBm 7600 -130 dBm -139 dBM -141 dBm 7610 -130 dBm -139 dBm -140.5 dBm Rob, NC0B

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

Ken, no worries :-)   But;  I already have a high end shack PC I use with my Icom 7300.  I hardly EVER touch the Icom, since I control everything  via the PC.  Also, I do not yet own a Flex, so I was not comparing a 6600M.    Since I already have the PC, and I don't really need a front panel, that is why I am interested in a regular face-less 6600 model.  So in my case, it really is about comparing $3500 Icom to $3,999 Flex 6600.   Again, just for the better core radio, not the control panel or user interface.  And from what you guys have been sharing, it seems WELL worth it to add $500 and go with the Flex.

Cheers

AA0KM

If you are going for radio only and a computer is not your thing stick with that.

Flexradio is about software and using even more software from others.

Flexradio is great for all things software digital.

No inteface boxes and cables just software on top of software.

As far a specs goes we are entering the zone of a few numbers here and there better.

Reminds me of going from Cassette to CD.The numbers (spec) we are getting very close and the human ear has to be very keen on the differences.

Operations style Computer vs Traditional radio is where its at.

But both once set correctly are set and go so non-issue setup wise for both.

I like messing about computers a little, so flexradio suits me fine but glad to get rid of intefaces on the desk.

But physical interfaces Vs software intefaces you still have to mess with computer/software either way if doing anything digital.

So i chose all out with computer for digital.

I chuckle  every time someone gets SDR receiver and hooks it to thier IF-output and tries to be like Flexradio.

Got luck  ALL in your discission.
73 Jeff
2ct's

mikeatthebeach .

Thanks Ken
Suffice to say the 1st Bad review on the IC-7610 SDR rig must be from someone 
that is an appliance operator

  Maybe having a more quiet SDR Receiver on the IC-7610 compared to the Traditional IC7600 resulted in bad review as a more deaf receiver by this appliance operator
(hearing less noise ) ( sorta - funny ) with little technical background

Not all Hams are Engineers

73
Mike

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

Kenwood does not seem serious about the HF market, given how far behind (feature wise and design age-wise) the TS-590s is, and they also told me that they have an approx. 6-year cycle for Ham HF rigs.   But between the Flex 6600, and the Icom 7610, the people replying in this thread have calmly and politely shared enough information where the Flex does better than the Icom, that I am leaning 90% to the Flex 6600 now. :-)
[Editors Note:   "Calmly" and "Politely" are words that RARELY come into use while describing eham.net forum discussions. Thanks for the professionalism!]

For me, with my large amount of digital, but also occasionally playing with SSB and AM,  I like what I am hearing about:

+  Wider audio receive passband that is really flat compared to analog rigs, and wider than Icom. 

+  Higher resolution panadapter displays.

+  Multiple simultaneous different band digital sessions using different DAX channels.

+  Wider TX for AM and good quality AM.

+  Dual Transverter ports if I ever decide to play with Satellite.

+  Full Duplex.

+ Better Remote, even local LAN remote, using a laptop without buying Icom RS-BA1.

I am fairly certain now that in approx. 30 days (getting rest of money) will try a model 6600.

The one thing I hope FRS/Flex does;  This is 2018, and Windows 10 updates are not something entirely new.  They never mess up my other USB interfaces for my 2 different printers, flatbed scanner, GPS and Camera interfaces, etc.  But I am reading about far too much pain for both users and Flex Support Techs with regard to DAX USB drivers and quarterly Windows 10 updates.   I would love to hear that Flex intends to re-engineer their DAX USB device driver package to be more compatible with Windows 10 so that it does not generate dozens of support calls with each windows update.  This is not rocket science;  most of the other USB device vendors have gotten this right.   Flex has not spoken up on this thread (was hoping at least their sales/marketing would hit me with material :-)  )    Does anyone know for sure if Flex is working to re-write the methods/compatibility that their DAX USB driver package uses to co-exist (sic) with Windows 10?

Cheers,

Neal

AA0KM

AA0KM

I agree Paul but have all the money in all the setups why not just buy an older flexradio?

That's all nothing more.

73 Jeff

Bill Roberts

Question that is pertinent to this discussion.  Did Icom move to a 16 bit FPGA in the 7610 or is it still 14 bit like the 7300?  I have combed the Icom literature and can't determine what they're using. 16 or 14.

Also, does the 7610 have the extreme bandpass filters on contest bands like the 6600? 

Varistor

Yes, and Yes+. It has the digital tracking filters in front of both independent receivers. These filters have a high Q factor and offer steeper skirts than the regular bandpass filters.

Ken Hansen

The IC-7610 has what is called digi-pas filters for each band.

Jerry Gardner

The 7610 uses the LTC2208 ADC. This part comes in both 14-bit and 16-bit versions, but I can't tell which from looking at the 7610 schematic because Icom only labels the parts "LTC2208" and doesn't show the full part number.

W8QB

Respectfully, I doubt those friends with modest financial resources could ever hope to get anywhere near as much pleasure buying a receiver instead of a modestly priced used SDR transceiver.  Folks get licensed to get on the air; if your friends are hams, than something that receives only seems like a poor substitute for a good transceiver. 

I looked at the Flex website and it seems they're currently offering a certified pre-owned Flex-3000 for the discounted price of $899 including a 90 day hardware warranty.  For that price, the typical ham will get far more enjoyment than settling for a radio that does nothing more than receive.

The price of $899 is not much greater than the selling price of a popular discontinued product, the Flex-1500.  The 1500 offered far less functionality than the 3000, yet as noted, the 3000 seems to be a far better value.

Nobody can decide what fits their budget other than the particular customer.  But in this instance, $899 probably is well within the budget of most hams, to include perhaps those friends you mentioned.

VA7OJ/AB4OJ

Hi Jerry,

The IC-7610 has two 16-bit LTC2208 ADC's. The LTC2208-14 is marked "LTC2208-14".

73, Adam VA7OJ/AB4OJ

W8QB

Hi Jeff AA0KM.  Like so many others, I have numerous devices connected to the Internet ranging from simple things, up to and including sophisticated Internet-dependent devices.  I have been running Windows 10--and also OSx--ever since Win10 came on the market, and in all this time, my various devices for the most part never incurred major issues when confronted with operating system updates.

Although unfortunately with a 6400M, I did have issues coinciding with the just released MS Spring software update.  To their credit, these very issues are the factor that presumably prompted Flex to get far ahead of the curve by helpfully offering a thorough set of instructions for mitigating the impact of the new MS update.  That was a thoughtful gesture on the part of Flex, and I anticipate that with each release of new Flex software, there will be fewer and fewer issues involving DAX.

Jerry Gardner

Thanks for the clarification. I've seen some other products that use the LTC2208-14 label them as "LTC2208" on the schematic, so didn't want to assume they were the 16-bit parts.

mikeatthebeach .

Neal
   
Many Things that the Flex6600 has going for itself over the IC-7610

1. WNB " Give clean Waterfall Post processing " No other SDR out there 
    does this, mathematically model Wideband noise impulse and inverts 
    by 180 degrees and take Noise out of Waterfall & Receiver
 ( Icom - Elecraft - Kenwood - Anan all do not do this ! )
   Great for Fast Impulse Noise - Motor Noise - Power Line Static
  Great with the Urban Hams in Noisy Locations 

2.) The new Flex6600M can see super weak on the waterfall before they can be 
   heard ! Try that with any of the others, just won't be the same 

3.) Can be REMOTE controlled with very little cables - believe me 
   ( Elecraft is a Rat's nest of cables )

4.) Flex 6xxx Series are only SDR radio's that can be used with a Thin Client
   Even Slug Slow DSL with Panadapter from Starbuck's works great !
  Do not need a High Horse Power Computer remotely - Cheapie netbook
   works fine

5.) The Flex6600M has best of both worlds - Knobs or you can 
   run without Knobs ( Will not miss the IC-7610 )

6.) Flex6600M Great 4K type Touch Screen, slick as an iPad

7.) Flex6600M has 2 SCU's to run Diversity Mode 
    A DXer's dream com true 
    ( More features that can added in software later by FRS Plasma TV nulling- etc )

8.) With Icom - what you see is what you get 
     With Flex - Room for improvements
     Feels like getting a newRadio with each upgrade where Icom you will need to  wait for new features buy a Newer Icom new Radio

9.) WideBand ESSB possible on Flex6600

10.) Digital mods like FT8 are super easy to set up, no sound cards needed

 11.) Flex6600 is a real Server type Radio - need I say more !

12.) Resolution on the WaterFall down to 10Hz, only a High Price 
      Agilent-HP Spectrum Analyzer could do this, Try this with Any Other Rig - Elecraft - Kenwood -  Icom - Yaesu, it's terrible WaterFall resolution in their WaterFall Displays 

13.) 7th order Band Filters on each of the Contest Bands 

14.) SO2R 

I think the Flex6600M is the Best of the Best ! 

73 
Mike

VA7OJ/AB4OJ

Hi Rob.
Here is my measured MDS data for the IC-7610 on 28,1 and 50,1 MHz (CW, B=500 Hz). My figures are pretty close to yours.

Preamp off/1/2:
28.1 MHz:  -133/-139/-142 dBm    50.1 MHz: -129/-139/-140 dBm
Measured MDS data for IC-7300:
Preamp off/1/2:
28.1 MHz: -129/-139/-141 dBm     50.1 MHz: -131/-141/-142 dBm
I rest my case.
73, Adam VA7OJ/AB4OJ

W8QB

If I had intended to be dismissive, my post would not have led off with the word "respect".  I did not have to take the time to address your remarks, but did so because I wanted to be helpful, but perhaps it is you who missed the point of my remarks.

W8QB

Excellent point.  The written word is a poor substitute for a face to face discussion; and in many respects a QSO, too, is far superior to posting ideas on a forum.

Ken Hansen

"6.) Flex6600M Great 4K type Touch Screen, slick as an iPad" Uh, no. "Integrated Display Resolution1: 1920x1200" Source: http://www.flexradio.com/amateur-products/flex-6000-signature-series/flex-6600/ That's slightly better than 1080p, certainly not 4K resolution.

mikeatthebeach .

Well, it great resolution better than anyone else
sharper than Maestro

mikeatthebeach .

Maybe I should have also said it's looks great on a 65" 4K TV screen  !!! 

Ken Hansen

Yes, it is a higher resolution than the Marstro: Display Resolution: HD (WXGA 1280 x 800) display resolution Source: http://www.flexradio.com/amateur-products/flex-6000-signature-series/maestro/

Robert Lonn

But my 4K TV sets up converts it perfectly!!

W8QB

If I had such a display alongside my treadmill, I'd exercise more often (maybe)!

KY6LA_Howard

Everyone missed the fact that the 6600 has4 receiver slices while the. 7610 only has 2 receivers If u do a lot of digital you will use many more than 2 My 6700 usually has 5 digital slices going all day.