Pure signal advance

Bill -VA3WTB

Maybe an API can be writen for pure signal, I don't know.

W9OY

PSDR_mrx software will not work in the 6000 series radio.  Neither will the GPL license allow Flex to just pluck the software out of the air and use it however they want.  There are consequences to using GPL software Flex will not likely wish to engage.  Flex knows conceptually how to do pre-distortion, even automated pre-distortion.  It is not a mystery and never was. They invented WBIR (Bob and Eric) back in 2009.  WBIR was essentially a pre-distortion algorithm used on the receiving side of the SDR-1000, and was actually a quite elegant solution in my opinion.  So once again we are back to: they will implement when it fits their production schedule.  Works for me.

73  W9OY   

Bill -VA3WTB

Even though Flex radios, when set up correctly does not bother others because they are very clean now, when pure signal is implemented It will be. But our pure signal goes down further than yours, it's better. Can hardly wait.  LOL

np2g

Ok here is what you avoided to say on your history trip This function has been promised since 2009. Yep. And without pure signal no matter how you tell the story not having pure signal and pressing the on button it cannot. Get this clear cannot match any of the listed benefits. Not almost not pretty close nope If you see these traits available. Stop the excuses. It's not about. "It's great now". This adaptation. Assists functions that cannot be presently duplicated And The present program. Open source program can be looked at. It can be a educational event that would allow any else to write their own. Not copy . And I no longer want or ask for any flex promise. It should be implemented. They know it. They know the benefits and if flex users see this as a improvement or a value added process to should be there for flex users So I am asking if you like the idea just say yes. Learn about what benefits you can get.

W9OY

My response is So?  I'd like to see the paper that PROMISES pure signal.  At best pure signal was discussed as a possibility, at the very best.  In addition there is much left still to learn about this kind of adaptive signal processing because it makes a big difference in the user experience.  SDR does not happen in real time.  It happens in virtual time.  It's a very different process than in a radio like a K3 or a Ten Tec.  The RF comes to the antenna, and that is where the similarity ends.  From that point the "signal" is converted into a functional mathematical representation and operations are performed on the math.  At this point the signal is virtual.  The number and complexity of operations and the way they are performed and the horsepower of the processor now becomes the dominant feature, because the more time you spend processing the father away from instantaneous the signal presented to the operator is, and this works both on receive and transmit.  So pure signal MUST add overhead to this process, since you have to collect a sample and do some math to it and then combine the sample which subtracts out the IMD from the transmitted signal.  Maybe I don't want this overhead added to my process.  Maybe what I have is good enough for me.  Maybe I don't want to pay the cost.

Warren has been working on pure signal since 2006 as I understand it.  It's one of his projects and apparently it's your passion.  It's not my passion in any way and from what I read it's not much of a passion for every one else.  I'm interested in other stuff.  If pure signal comes along whoop de doo I'll give it a whirl.  One thing pure signal will do is add lag to the signal stream.  Maybe I don't want lag in my signal stream.  Maybe I like the dead **** perfect monitor function which has 10ms lag that Flex now provides, some of the best in the business.  Maybe I don't want the extra complexity.  Maybe Flex needs to take the time to understand how the extra complexity effects every other system before they implement it, and maybe fix what pure signal will break.  How will pure signal effect the QSK CW if it adds lag to the signal processing?  How does that effect digital modes?  How does that effect remote operation?  How will that effect WAN operation?  The 6000 series is a more complicated and feature rich radio than the Anan system, more moving parts more things to break.  

You haven't even told us how pure signal effects these kind of parameters in the Anan, mostly because you don't know.  In fact you haven't even told us how pure signal works. What are the hardware requirements across all of the Anan platforms.  What is the additional expense.  How do you have to modify the radio?  Maybe we don't want added expense.  Maybe we don't want to destroy the resale value of the radios by doing non factory sanctioned modifications.  The only thing you have told us is pure signal in your opinion has some benefits, and now after 9 years it's automatic.  The benefits are there but they are not dramatic.  A few extra dB of IMD in a land of speech processors is not dramatic and perhaps is not even worth the trouble or maybe the cost is more in terms of performance is more than I'm willing to spend.  In terms of "splatter" the addition of the W9GR processor has gone a LONG way in improving that situation.  I have heard some interesting effects with pure signal in terms of improvement of intelligibility in very weak signals when pure signal is engaged.  The added coherence seems to provide a better S/N at the receiving end at least when using a Flex as the RX, so it is definitely worth studying, but I'm not sure if that benefit is universal or not.  Phasing radios have always sounded better than heterodyne radios, and phasing to phasing may be better still.  Bears some understanding.

That being said I am interested in adaptive predistortion.  Adaptive predistortion for example could be used to subtract noise, theoretically even static out of a received signal path and may give some ability to hear under the noise, MAYBE big MAYBE  I don't want anyone to think this is a PROMISE.  I don't work for Flex and I can't promise anything.  This is kind of what science lab is about.  Taking the time to understand the processes, the system and the system limitations and the performance hit these kind of processes will cause, and writing some code to effect what you learn.  I'm 100% in favor of that because that is where the boundary will be pushed.  I know for a fact Flex is engaged but I do not know where they are going with it, nor is it my business to know.  What they learn while investigating one aspect of signal processing may have direct benefit on another, so I'm willing to trust the process.  So far the process hasn't let me down because the radio is a far better radio than it was a year ago.

Now Ed I fully expect your next note will be no different than your previous 20 which is why I think this is all a manipulation.  

Pure signal good
Pure signal now automatic

Yes we heard it the first 20 times.  We agree  

Pure signal good
Pure signal automatic

We just don't know if Anan's implementation of pure signal is worth the cost and if it's done in a way that won't hose up other things in the Flex radios.

You're kind of like a used car salesman  Buy this wreck.  You know you NEED a car even though the one you have works fine.  Buy this wreck. Babies are starving over seas.  Buy this wreck.  Stop procrastinating.  Get out the checkbook.  Buy this wreck.  See it's got a hickey on the hood!!  Buy this wreck.  You promised!!  Buy this wreck.

73  W9OY


 

Bill -VA3WTB

Lee, I don't think this has anything to do with pure signal, that is a smoke screen. I believe Ed is not acting alone and none of this is his words. The guys he is hanging with read all this with great interest and they pat him on the back each time he post.
They email each other all day and send all these posts around to stay informed, I know because I have been getting them, how funny is that? And this is from people that would never own a Flex.
How do I know that? Because Ed has been answered completely by us and Flex, and Gerald never promised anything, and I can prove that.

The Idea of using open source on the Flex for implementing pure signal is just silly.

And this has nothing to do with being a GOOD ham and saving the airways and it's good for us all,,what ****!!!

np2g

Look at 2009. If you both weren't so aggressive I'd even give you the date and copy number. to you. But it's only fair to tell you to go look for yourself. I really cannot fix what disease you guys have.it has nothing to do with advocating pure signal. The use. The benefits or even remotely the ability of anyone implementing it And I will not participate in any personal attacks. To you or your friends. .

Bill -VA3WTB

We are a little frustrated yes. Still can not understand what you are wanting to happen, and you skate around saying so. Clearly what are you wanting to gain from your original post?, All here are liking pure signal ideas.

W7NGA

We are all hams. Have you read about Nepal today? Remember that great feeling of being an amateur radio operator when you read of our participation in saving lives and making the world better during a crisis? That's how I want to continue feeling ... and it has nothing to do with PureSignal or whatever this is that foments here. Dudes ... reel it in. Grasp hold of perspective and QRT.

dan  W7NGA
San Juan Island, Wa.

Walt - KZ1F

Ed, There is no conversation here, people are just talking past each other, the receivers are all off. This thread has gotten really sick, serious paranoid rhetoric, ridiculous accusations. You're letting the other two taunt you into just repeating yourself. Ed, they are not listening as they really don't care. Let it go. The three of you should put the others on ignore. I agree with Dan, shut it down.

W9OY

Ed How have you been attacked?  We wanted to discuss pure signal and your only response has been pure signal good and now automatic!  How can I discern if pure signal is any good if all you do is say that?  I pretty much agree with Bill as I know some of those he speaks and I can almost hear their voices in what Ed has published now that I'm clued into that.  They refer to Flex in their discussions with great hatred.  

There is a technique called FUD fear uncertainty and doubt.  It is a technique used to discredit a competitor and manipulate a client. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt  

It was a technique promulgated by IBM against Amdahl

"FUD is the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that IBM sales people instill in the minds of potential customers who might be considering Amdahl products"  

In my opinion this whole "argument" is all about FUD, and an attempt to manipulate list readers and potential Flex customers like IBM salesmen attempted to manipulate their customers.   You can review Ed's arguments come to your own conclusions regarding his intentions.  It's all there in black and white, and I'll own any excess on my part.    

Walt: I don't see the discussion as sick at all because you want to make this about poor Ed.  I think it's time to vet what is actually going on.  Ed claims he would be happy to tell us what is going on with pure signal then refuses to tell us about pure signal.  Bill and I are sick and don't deserve it when he is called on that.  So now suddenly it's my problem he won't address the questions.  i.e. more FUD.  I'm not being aggressive to him, I just want to know something real.  I have given good arguments about possible problems with pure signal implementation that deserve a reasoned response beyond "pure signal good and now automatic, software free".  So maybe he should answer for your sake rather than my sake.  Maybe he should tell you how pure signal works and how it won't **** up other processes in our radios.  I know for me a couple dB IMD is not worth a 1% degradation in my CW performance.  So let's hear the facts.  If we don't hear the facts, in another 2 months (or 1 week) this exact thread or one very similar will once again resurface promulgated by the same individual for the purpose of more FUD.   Then we can refer back to this discussion, in fact this exact paragraph, so we all can understand what is actually going on.  So let's hear the facts otherwise I'm voting FUD

73  W9OY

Bill -VA3WTB

I agree Walt time to stop, I just wish I knew what Ed really means, He says a lot of things. Walt you see things very strange, Ed makes comments that you just can't put your finger on, very clever.

Does he think Gerald promised?. Even if he did, Gerald can change his mind, it's their product and do what they want.
How can pure signal be incorporated in the Flex? Without Flex involvement?
Is he asking every one to put the heat on Flex and demand it?
He said this was all intended to be just an FYI, ok we got it thanks.

Here is Gerald's last post on this subject, I see no mention of promising anything and no date mentioned. This post of Gerald should clear everything up. If it doesn't, go away.....

Periodically the topic of Adaptive Predistortion comes up for discussion on this community.  Our team has been consistent in our position on this subject but sometimes it is useful to restate what has been said many times before in the interest of clarity.  Here is a restatement of the facts:

1. The FLEX-6000 Series hardware has the necessary connections and internal RF port to port isolation to support adaptive predistortion software.  We have verified that transmitter output to receiver input isolation (e.g. ANT1 to RXA) is >80 dB on all bands including 6m, which is more than ample to accommodate adaptive predistortion using an external amplifier in the loop.

2. FlexRadio remains interested in adaptive predistortion technology but we have not in the past nor will we now make a time frame commitment.  Our internal engineering resources are 100% allocated to complete our published road map for v1.x releases through v2.0.  We believe that the features committed in those releases are currently of higher priority to the vast majority of our customers than is adaptive predistortion.  

3. We periodically review and rank our software backlog and feature requests.  We look at the ranked priorities and compare the development magnitude for each feature to the available engineering resources within a release cycle.  Based on those factors, we make decisions on what features make the cut in the release planning process.  So far adaptive predistortion has not made the cut.  That doesn't mean it won’t make the cut in a future release.

73 and thanks for your support,
Gerald

Gerald - K5SDR, Official Rep

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Posted 3 months ago

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np2g

I would like everyone for their comments. I must agree there is no reason to continue with any adversarial. Things. Please read and ponder the pure signal possibilities. The only way you will get is to ask. .

KY6LA_Howard

@ED

I have played with ADP and heard Warren speak at Friedrichshafen

... yes the benefits are there but frankly they are not significant enough to make that much difference except for a few isolated situations such as the other guy discerning information from your very weak signal (unlikely in a contest or DX pileup) and the Audio Purists... 

For the rest of the ham world ADP is a big Yawn....

Definitely not enough benefit in terms of increased sales from ADP for new Flex Hardware for them to divert resources at this time from much more important projects like 1.5 Noise Reduction or V2 WAN which will increase sales...

Anyways Flex 6000 series is already at the top of the list for clean radios.. so you should be harping at the real offenders from Japan not Flex....

I live in California.. the home of Tree Huggers...we have all silly sorts of rules that cause us to waste money on Tree Hugger things that have little or no real benefit...

Cleaning up spectrum below -50dBc by one small vendor seems to fall into the category of Spectrum Tree Hugger.... It sounds good and socially responsible on paper but in the real world it will cost time, $$ and resources to produce and the net benefit will much such little difference that it likely will be unmeasurable....  

Sort of like why we are forced to pay $1 more per gallon to have Summer Blend gasoline to "protect" the environment in California.. that only causes more pollution because we get much poorer gas mileage and use more gasoline...but the Tree Huggers feel good....

Frankly you have said your piece.. everyone agrees that it would be "NICE" to have ADP...

But clearly you were NOT listening.. when everyone including Flex also said that its on the list AFTER much more important and beneficial features are first implemented...

So rather than harping on the "Nice" Tree Hugger Part

Prove Me Wrong......Why don't you make a business case to show how many units and $$ in increase sales will result from ADP for Flex.  I am sure that if there were money to be made Flex would move it up in priority.   

Money talks BS walks...

Bill -VA3WTB

Well said Howard, on the button, I called it out, and it proves to be true, Ed is playing a game with this site for the fun of his buddies watching everything here. Everything was asked and answered months ago on this. It is finished!!!!

Bill -VA3WTB

Ed it sounds like you know or have heard of someone that that is willing to make it happen without Flex. If more people asked. Perhaps an outboard unit? but I don't  know about the software.

Walt - KZ1F

That meant you too Bill. We don't need to hear any more paranoid rhetoric.
Now  am going to like the idea. Anything I can do to pop the bubble.

Dan -- KC4GO

It's always about the money no one should forget that when FRS can't make a profit our radios are like my old Drake TR-7 nice to look at.