Pure signal advance

W9OY

My impression is Anan boys like to pretend they know how things work but they are also just followers.  As far as I know Warren is the only one left coding PSDR and things like CU-SDR are little more than frameworks also being coded by just one guy.  There are a couple dozen smart guys and a whole bunch who are not real clear but like to broadcast vociferously about what they sorta know.  You know, the crowd who think if they just say it loud enough it will become true.

When I needed help with my Anan the Anan brainiacs especially on the KC9XG group were clueless and just spewed a bunch of mythology and nonsense.  Mukesh helped me, because he actually does know what is going on, otherwise the rest were worse than useless because they kept sending me in the wrong direction

73  W9OY

Bill -VA3WTB

It is second generation technology,  a Flex 5000. Time to let this go, nothing will be gained here. As you know it is in the plans. Everyone should understand that by now. But were did you see a comment from Flex they say they have concerns about it, could you show that to me? And what about going after the other companies that have not even commented on getting it?

Bill -VA3WTB

Umm, I wounder who is drinking Cool-aid,,this is really funny, I love when they bring this stuff up as if it will save ham radio, most entertaining.

Bill -VA3WTB

Ed says he is trying not to make this an Anan Vs Flex thing, although  Flex is all he talks about.  Interesting that you just did with your comment. I think what you mean if I understand you is the Flex is far more refined.

Steve K9ZW

Add it to the END of the list, why not?

Switch gears?  Nah. .. actually... No Way!

Really the way of harping on this, and almost chiding FRS for not having a point-release for a pet project on YOUR rather than their timeframe is not helping your cause.

It is perhaps a discussion you might have with FRS directly, but repeatedly making limited interest appear as widespread by ever couple weeks starting a new demanding thread isn't in the amateur spirit.

If FRS never implements Pure Signal, if FRS implements it a some future release, if they provide a place for someone else to make a SmartSDR plug-in, or if the rush a point release to please your demands, it doesn't make very much difference to me.

It is an interesting development, but not one that would move me off of my FRS Flex-6x00 radios.

Putting your pet project ahead an pushing out SmartSDR 2.0 as a result - basically FRS breaking their commitment just to please you - just isn't likely to happen.  They might add it in, but they aren't going to push off commitments to divert resources.

Would be useful to read more on the developments, links appreciated.  Your post seems to be leading edge in searchable references. 

But be absolutely clear being interested is in no way support for a personal crusade to implement.  Like I said it doesn't much matter, specially in comparison to the rich feature set already road mapped.

73

Steve

K9ZW

np2g

Thank you all for your comments Some are nasty. And incorrect. It is about pure signal. A very good thing. If you do not understand the benefits please research it We Reading some ham retort. I change it to most hams realize that we are the. Keepers of the frequencies. Technology does not stand still. And if it is beneficial. And in the process helps everyone this is a good thing. Since I use it. It does everything I have listed. And some good things that I have not listed .

Bill -VA3WTB

I am still looking around for Flex statement about concerns on Pure signal. Were did you see that?

Walt - KZ1F

I am not convinced many would consider me a 'fair and impartial judge' but, for the most part, I believe I am. Eric has a very good point. Yes, there was an immediate and visceral reaction. This is much that same as 50 years ago when you had hams doing point to point wiring and coil windings for their receviers, transmitters and linears and looked down their noise at those 'pretender' hams assembling kits delivered by Heathkit. Those that do that, likely the same ones that subscribe to QEX, are certainly fewer in number than early days but still feel themselves superior hams in they actually know how what a Colpitts oscillator is and how to make one by hand. To be sure, Eric is 98% accurate, most of us buy our radios from Kenwood, Yaesu, Icom, Elecraft, and now Flex, would not have a clue how to fix it if it broke. Buy their computers from Dell and equally would not have a clue how to write a software program or fix it if it broke. The reality of it is, most hams today are appliance operators. Frankly we could get into the level of difficulty in obtaining an Amateur Radio license. I mean no-code...c'mon, that is, seems to me, only a little more difficult than obtaining a class D CB license. Do they still have class D CB licenses? Do they still have CB or is it all now Family Radio and that's why there are AMer in the bottom portion of 10m. For the Flex people who were just called appliance operators, ask the Anan folk how many lines of code of theirs was committed to the HPSDR source tree.

W9OY

I think it's time to call a spade a spade.  This thread has nothing to do with pure signal, absolutely nothing.  I haven't learned one thing about pre-distortion since the discussion started.  It has to do with a passive aggressive manipulation of this group by NP2G in the disguise of being a legitimate topic.  It's basically his version of playing with himself and I for one find it monumentally boring.  I like discussion, even not terribly productive discussion but I'm not really interested in being manipulated under the guise of discussion

73  W9OY

W9OY

Gerald doesn't seem to be concerned

https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/official-position-on-adaptive-predistortion

Steve K9ZW

I think Eric is over generalizing and his claim that Flex users are appliance operators illogical and only intended to be provocative - remember he personally has both camps of radios which shouldn't be possible if he was only "an appliance operator."

The ANAN is cool from the point it is like the first kit computer my buddies built back in 1970's in the dorm at the Milwaukee School of Engineering. 

**** exciting and a lot of fun if the development and the build of a "PC" (the term was coined later) was what captured your interest, but if you actually needed to get your course work done you still used the mainframe.

Actually we used both for both purposes - experimenting and production work.

Legitimately the was the two projects work does define what level of "tinkering" is possible: 

The hpSDR/ANAN is by definition as open source and collaborative as possible. Using the work in the best possible way it is "a tinker's" radio.

FRS Signature series is not a open project, period.  The hooks are basically as far under the hood as you get without a special agreement.  And nobody ever promised anything more, ever. 

Hobbyists Roll-Your-Own is going to be different than a commercial product.

Neither define the owner/operator in any way.  Not one bit.

And both are valued contributions to the Amateur Radio community.

Slanging one or other for the characteristics that define them, and then layering on an unsubstantiated set of derogatory attributes about their users is just plainly wrong.

However Eric's point does have a clear observation that it is much more difficult to setup and run a ANAN without a willingness to dive under the hood compared to the FRS product.  Only makes sense.

In the end a QSO is a QSO is a QSO and if the radio excites you as well as excites the ether, then it is a success.

73

Steve

K9ZW

Bill -VA3WTB

The main reason that there seems to be an visceral reaction on the community is not about the merits of pure signal, almost every one on the community like the idea. It is because this has been around the circle many times posted by the same person as if he thinks he is making a difference.
Flex has made a statement on this saying it is planed. so why does it keep coming up?
How about all the other company's who have never commented on it at all, why nothing said about them? Oh, I know this is just a Flex thing, a very slick way of bashing Flex. One thing for sure everyone pays very close attention to Flex and this community. The Anan folks are reading here every day to see what is going on. I keep getting an email from an Anan fan boy with a link to the community called an update, he must have a mailing list so everyone stays informed about Flex every move and everything writen here. So it is clear that Flex is the big game changer everyone watches.

It is true Walt. This is the area our hobby has really changed. Me for example. I do not even fully understand how everything works under the lid of the Fex Radio. I do not have the skills to take my Flex apart and fix all the components on the board. And I have never learned how to wright a program, or code.
I suppose to some then I should not be in this hobby because of my short comings in these area's.
But the technology is vastly different from Heath Kit days. I would think there are very few Flex customers that would consider repairing there Flex.
Using the name appliance operators seems to be a bad thing, but that is the state of this hobby for most. Here is a question. Lets just say, the worst thing to happen, Flex does not ever implement pure signal, what would happen, would lots sell there radio because of it, or would they keep them because they still love what it does best?
For Icom, Yeasu, Kenwood, and all the rest, I have not heard a fallout with customers saying they will sell their radios because none of those company's have not commented at all on it.

Yes I expect a few here to go over any comments I made here to find fault and debate them, I am just not into that. These are just my thoughts, time for me to move on to more important things, hey maybe radio time. what a novel idea.

Walt - KZ1F

Lee, I just re-read Ed's posts and re-read your posts. Seems to me you are, by far, the more passive aggressive poster here. Ed, created an IDEA post/thread. Seems to me, people should read it, vote to "Like it" or let it go. Idea's don't need debate, they don't need arguments and they don't need IHeartFlex defenders. It's an Idea, like it and vote for it or don't vote for it.  Ed was not the one that turned this into a shouting match. Ed was not the one that accused you of playing with yourself. But, in my observation, in order to be anointed Elmer and honorary member of the company one has to be the most ardent IHeartFlex advocate and fervently shout down anyone who might, even remotely, point out a perceived weakness or, in any way, imply something negative about Flex relative to the competition. From an outside perspective, you'd think he was insulting your girlfriend. Oh...wait.   ???

People on here need to get a grip. For people who post an IDEA. If people don't vote to like it, let it go, you proposed your idea, let the room vote on it. Despite what some folks might think, FRS may be actively working on it. What Gerald and his VPs decide to do will be what they perceive will sell the most radios, not the most software upgrades, regardless of what anyone on here says. Everyone needs to tone it down. Some on here need to take a cold shower.

W9OY

How is it more difficult?  I had trouble with my Anan 10 because someone had hosed up the IP address, but my 100D was not harder than my 6300 as far as setup.  I down loaded the software, configured it like I did for my old F5K, plugged in the ether net, turned on the radio, turned on PSDR and that was that.  It did not require getting under the hood.  Now Anan is making a new PA board because the original PA board didn't have the correct hardware for pure signal, ie correcting short shortsightedness.  I think this belies the "mystique" Anan owners like to portend,  like they are a bunch of wooley wild-eyed experimenters pushing the boundaries of ham radio.  HPSDR is as effectively "closed" as Flex.  There is a promise of writing code under GPL, but no one is writing code.  I've seen a couple jokers think they were going to get all tuned up in C and go write some code but that invariably fizzles out in about 3 days after the immensity of the task reveals itself.  

In fact Flex is pretty open.  It has published several API's so you can develop to your heart's content.  The proof is SmartCAT, DAX, K5FR's DDUTIL, W2RF's SDR-Bridge AA3RK's FRStack  and the K9DUR programs.  I use all of these to enhance my radios capability.  These are tightly integrated and work perfectly.  Anan on the other hand has nothing like the tightly integrated I/O clients called DAX or SmartCAT.  You have to buy a kludged up third party piece of software from 10 years ago for something like DAX.  It doesn't have any native way to get serial in or out.  You have to install some other third party software.  You have to play around configuring the third party software and some settings in PSDR  work and some don't.  There is no way to get for example 2 channels of wideband I/Q out of the radio so I can drive 2 CW skimmers.  This is BUILT IN to the Flex.  In fact Flex through SDR-Bridge will accommodate 4 channels of skimmer.    I use SmartCAT as my serial port program for my Anan because it works better and is more stable than com0com and the others.  The Flex is a much better contest radio in terms of integration compared to the Anan due to its tight client integration and the integration is because Flex published the API's and encouraged developers to develop.  The contest interface I have integrated just works and never crashes.  Neither does the DX configuration I use exhibit any installability.   So if you think your a "real ham" because you spend your time dealing with buggy software, I'm not sure you are clear on what "real ham" means.  I do think K5FR W2RF AA3RK and K9DUR among others are "real hams" because they didn't just talk about it, but be effectively be eliminated from doing it because of the complexity involved, they instead set up in the Flex sandbox and actually created useful products for the rest of us.  I very much appreciate that.

73  W9OY 

Bill -VA3WTB

Lee is right, Flex has already answered Ed's IDEA with a positive reply. There seems to be more going on here. I think this community has treated Ed very well considering. What would happen if some of us did the same were the Anan folks hang out as they share the same interest? I for one welcome anyone to talk about things we can improve and work on for the Flex. But there are some who from past postings have a clear agenda.

W9OY

Walt what have you learned about pure signal from this discussion?  That's not rhetorical.  I would like to hear precisely what you have learned?  If Ed is trying to be a light on this subject, one would think pure signal would be much better illuminated.  Instead what I feel is heat.  So what that tells me: this is not about knowledge but manipulation.  It seems like the only one who is bugged by Flexes pre-distortion time table doesn't even have a dog in the hunt.  What's wrong with this picture?

73  W9OY

N7AIG

I'd like to hear more technical details: what was the issue about changing levels, and what is new about the automatic corrections? What kinds of things need to be designed into the radio to facilitate better APD? (from the discussion it sounds like the HPSDR guys did a redesign to better accommodate APD?) Please, fill us in!

Bill -VA3WTB

Yes I read that,,but Ed said that Flex has concerns about introducing pure signal. I"m still waiting for him to show me were Flex said that.

Bill -VA3WTB

I have asked Ed a question and he has not answered me,,I hope he will answer this one. But maybe Lee can, he should know all about this. Or Walt?

np2g

I am trying very very. Hard not to participate in name calling. Or attacks or personal agendas or the like All I have done is bring awareness to a great function. And as not to be forgotten I have also tried to not answer obvious. At least obvious to me questions regarding pure signal. . It would be far more educational for a individual to read more about it so they. Can make an educated presumption. The yes it works and works auto. And can work with flex is all there is I did preface this conversation with a short list of some. Not all of the benefits. It wasn't a comparison nor a just fine or a conflict. It gave you some of the benefits. Actual benefits from. Someone who now uses this system. And I have used it on other pieces of hardware. And more and more of us will be able to hear see talk with people presently running it . So to all a simple yes it can be beneficial. And please remember flex when you have time.

Bill -VA3WTB

Ok Ed as I thought, it was just you thinking Flex had some kind of concerns about doing it, there never was a comment about having any concerns on their part. you did bring this Awareness to the community before and Flex answered you with a most positive response and fully explained what needed to be done first, we all got that. So we are all aware now, now lets just let Flex Radio do what is best, even if we don't all agree with it.

Walt - KZ1F

Just speaking for myself Bill, I am not sure what your point is. I don't believe anyone has disagreed with you at all.
"Why does it keep coming up?" I think Ed was merely pointing out Anan has auto set now. Does FRS know that, presumably now they do. Does FRS care? I have no clue.

"Oh, I know this is just a Flex thing, a very slick way of bashing Flex". I guess I am just not sufficiently paranoid to detect that as a slight.

"One thing for sure everyone pays very close attention to Flex and this community".
I suspect there are two camps, those that have Flex and those that troll here for the sheer comedic value. Watching the IHeartFlex folks defend their girl friend, while being incredibly sad, is also immensely humorous. For those that defensive over their radio, perhaps you should not engage with those that aren't members of the bubble.

"So it is clear that Flex is the big game changer everyone watches".
Only to the .14% (point 1 4 percent .0014) of the Amateur Radio community that own one.

"I suppose to some then I should not be in this hobby because of my short comings".
I believe you are the first person to suggest that.

"the name appliance operators seems to be a bad thing".
I used to adjust my own car's engine valves, tweak the timing, change the plugs, replace the oil and oil pan gasket. Now I get in a car and push a button. I don't slaughter my own animals for food. I've long since sold my HW-101, AR-1500a, retired my Heath uMatic Keyer. My Elecraft KAT-500 is a fraction of the size of my Heath Deluxe Antenna Tumer. We are mostly all slaves to the consumer marketplace. This is why HeathKit went out of business. I suspect the others, Flexers or not, have similar experiences.

"For Icom, Yeasu, Kenwood, and all the rest, I have not heard a fallout with customers saying they will sell their radios because none of those company's have not commented at all on it."
I suspect that is because they aren't so **** about what their radio doesn't have. But having said that, Kenwood, et al, owners routinely upgrade their radios to get more features and better performance. Sometimes they keep the old one, sometimes they sell the old one.

In closing, people should just take a breath.

W9OY

I'm not sure why this automated thing is even considered a breakrhrough. Flex did this on the receive side for the system back in 2009 http://w9oy-sdr.blogspot.com/2009/05/wbir.html 73. W9OY

Bill -VA3WTB

Walt you never disapoint, I wrote someone a little while ago telling them wait a while. Walt will bring out every detail in my post one by one, now I wish I had money on it. too funny
As a side, I am an Flex fan boy and  and make no apologies for that, I see nothing wrong with saying what I like, and I care less who likes it.

Walt - KZ1F

I suspect Ed is a big boy so he is quite capable of defending himself. As for dog in the hunt, I believe Ed still owns a Flex so, yeah, he does have a 'dog in the hunt'.

I don't know why you are asking me what I know about pure signal. " this is not about knowledge but manipulation" How about neither. Ed made a suggestion, where this is the second one I guess he simply updated his old one. I believe the rest was primarily the IHeartFlex folks telling Ed to sit down and shut up. Why am I doing commentary? Because someone needs to be the adult in the room Lee, and I don't see anyone else stepping up.

This could have and should have been a one post idea.

Bill -VA3WTB

Ed said maybe one day he will come back to flex, only after some things were done as he wants. At the end of the thred someone asked about changes done in the Anan for pure signal. I don know the answer, I was just wondering if you knew, but maybe not, He asked some good questions. Perhaps he should go to their user group to find out.

Walt - KZ1F

That's what the women have told me Bill.

Bill -VA3WTB

LOL @ Walt

np2g

It doesn't need a flex answer it doesn't need to cut into. Any wan LAN or the 1.5 noise whatever. It is a successful. Auto selectable function that the components are already accounted for in the flex that any and all software that accomplishes this is open source. Easy to review easier to make your own This isn't re inventing the wheel. It will do exactly as i and other have found out. . Since I am not advocating. Any hardware switch. If you want these benefits you gotta keep asking . And allowing everyone to read see hear. Look at the difference. . So you only get it if you want it .

Bill -VA3WTB

It does not need a Flex answer? Are you suggesting open source software would work?