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Pure signal advance

np2gnp2g Member
edited June 11 in New Ideas
Pure signal now has the ability to auto set. Yes any value watt out. automatically. One of the concerns of flex I believe was this function . It made it difficult to provide this event to everyone because to use it you were constantly re adjusting. With this now proven acceptable this major barrier was removed. Again hoping that flex re consider this adaptation.
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  • np2gnp2g Member
    edited March 2017
    Since flex is very close to what they promised possibly now is the time to ask flex to re evaluate and provide pure signal. Not just a promise but to do it. The reasons below transcend any competition or the like. It is just better for all of us IMD. Well below any radio. Absolute clear audio. No intervention at any. power level Press Auto and go straight line. functionality. All your power placed in the band pass. Amplifiers when sampled also a straight line solution Absolutely reduces interference . We are the caretakers of our bands why not reduce the interference. Why not make our transmitters a good neighbor. There really has been a game changer in implementation. Auto functionality is today. This really means that any ham that can select the auto button can have the absolute best cleanest. signal on the band . I am not asking or inferring for anyone to go to another radio Remote is here. So why don't we step up and voice a yes to wanting it. Just don't let it be me. Add your yes . Help the bands. Help yourself .
  • KY6LA_HowardKY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    @NP2G

    You have been beating on the drum of Adaptive Pre-Distortion (APD) for quite some time now.


    Full WAN Remote is NOT here yet.  It will not be here until V2.0 Software.

    Full WAN Remote is far more important to far more people than APD, particularly since so few people are even aware of ADP, let alone wanting Flex to divert development resources to it...

    You just need to look at the huge buzz that was generated for Flex by the release of the Limited LAN Remote feature and the Myriad of private efforts to simulate WAN Remote via VPN until Flex finishes WAN Remote.  You do not see anything like that sort of buzz or interest being generated by APD...

    At the Visalia DX Convention.. All eyes were on the Remote Ham Booth, the KX0 Remote head and the Flex LAN Remote.   Even the Japanese were touting different forms of kludged WAN Remote...

    Nobody was even talking about or showing any interest in APD.. In fact the only APD presentation I have seen in the Past Year was Warren's at Friedrichshafen.

    if you looked at the recent QST, you will see that Flex already produces a pretty clean signal compared to the rest of the market.. so APD will be just a fine polishing on top of a more than acceptable product. 

    I would also suggest that there are many other much more important improvements such as improving contest work flow by putting spots and worked spots onto the waterfall (my personal second most important desire after Remote WAN) that clearly will generate far more sales for Flex than an esoteric improvement like APD which few people understand or want.  

    Clearly Flex needs to finish the very popular Remote LAN before they even consider diverting resources to other less popular projects...


  • Al_NN4ZZAl_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Hi Ed,
    I added a "like" and agree this is a feature we all (or at least most) want to have at some point.   I don't think we can say remote is here yet though.  

    LAN remote - yes but not WAN remote.  

    Many folks are waiting for the WAN Remote coming in V2.0.   And although I'm probably not going to use the WAN Remote feature, it's a feature many want and have prioritized ahead of other features.

    So I suspect the FRS version of "pure signal" will eventually be realized, but it may be a while still.  And even at that, there are many other ideas and enhancements that will be just was important to the owners and FRS. 

    I think as more folks get SDRs and can more easily see the benefits of a clean signal on the panadapter it will become a highly desirable attribute.   Also the various reviewers are beginning to talk more about it as well.   So pure signal will come  to the 6000, its just a matter of time.  I'm glad to know that FRS has the hooks in place on the 6000 series.

    Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
    al (at) nn4zz (dot) com




     
  • W9OYW9OY Alpha Team Member ✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Do you still have to go inside and hack up your radio rerouting signal paths and build a bunch of relay boxes and couplers and kludged up control paths to get pure signal to work?  I think there are like 30 Anan owners using this, mostly the audiophile crowd and you make it sound universal in the Anan community.   30 guys care taking the bands with your hacked up radios.  Quite noble.  Does the hack require 6 ms relays in order to not mess up QSK?  Oh that's right QSK isn't all that great in the Anan is it.  Perhaps we'll wait for a solution that takes into account all the performance aspects of the radio instead of just the audiophile crowd.  I must admit I am a fan of predistortion just not as an afterthought 

    https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/official-position-on-adaptive-predistortion 

    73  W9OY
  • np2gnp2g Member
    edited November 2015
    Thank you for your comment. Howard in their own words they are very close. . Since I have the ability to use this pure signal each and every day. It impacts the bands so significantly. For good. Everyone should now be asking. This pure signal is all over the world Making a better band neighbor And this again is not a bait and switch effort. Why can't we have a great clean signal. Why can't all of us benefit from using this process . Our transmitter has not been touched in electrical time. forever. No one should corner clean imd transmissions And if we do not keep asking. When or could becomes never. The last time I asked. The main reason was that pure signal was hard to user implement. Well it isn,t any more. I feel it is time for anyone who for the multiple reasons and more that have been listed speak up and voice yes. .
  • KY6LA_HowardKY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited April 2015
    The Last Time you asked the answer was the same as now... It was not that it was difficult   ....it will happen but not before a heck of a lot of other much more desirable and marketable features happen first...

    BTW..  I suspect that the only ones who really give a **** about it are the audiophiles and the spectral environmentalists.. sort of a subset of our California Tree Hugger population...  Personally I would love to play with APD but then I am a born again tinkerer....

    A significant number of contesters I know would rather splatter all over so as to drown out the competition....
  • np2gnp2g Member
    edited November 2015
    In what I am using. No. It is as easy as press the auto button and go for it. Every hdsdr user has the same opportunity.with a radio that supports it. If flex implements it. Every flex user has this ability. I have no intentions of commenting on anan unless forced I am using pure signal. And asking flex makes it available to flex users If you wish you can contact me directly and I will answer any of your anan. questions if I can. By the way there are a lot more than that 30. out there using pure signal It is world wide acceptable . This is a win win. For everyone.
  • np2gnp2g Member
    edited November 2015
    I never thought of being a spectral guy. And I would try to never splatter intentionally
    I know it does absolutely everything I listed. And this is a good thing .
    My difference now is I am asking others to step up. .

    and up to yesterday it was difficult to implement auto has changed that for everyone. This was a serious consideration for flex. And now this is gone.
    . Howard if you call pressing the auto button tinker.ing. That now is how easy it is. And flex can implement this now
  • David Decoons, wo2xDavid Decoons, wo2x Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11

    On the Anan 200D I installed a directional coupler on the output of my Acom 2000A amp. There is a -43 dB port on the coupler. I add another 20 dB of external attenuation then connect that padded signal into the Bypass port on the back of the radio.

    With the new beta software NP2G is referring to, you choose auto attenuation in the linearity tab. Now while you are transmitting it will automatically adjust the internal attenuation to provide a -21 dBm signal into the ADC. It is pretty simple now.

    The bigger picture is this. As others mentioned, the current state of the 6000 series has a TX IMD that is well within acceptable limits. The number of Flex radios out in the wild compared to overall number of HF radios on the air is extremely low. The impact on the bands from radios running APD is equivalent to a cup of fresh drinking water thrown into the ocean. Drinking from the ocean is still going to be very salty!

    I'd rather be listening next to a Flex as it is today than a TS-520 with his processor on. There are a LOT more dirtier radios out there.

    Dave, wo2x


  • W9OYW9OY Alpha Team Member ✭✭
    edited April 2015
    Why do you make it sound like Flex is against pre-distortion?  Clearly they are not.  The radio's hardware was designed with pre-distortion in mind.  

    Warren started playing around with the concept of pre-distortion back in 2006. Why did it take until 2014 to realize a viable system and until 2015 to realize a system that is automatic?  Is his system the best system?  Does his system effect or degrade other system variables or other modes?  Does it port readily to the Flex hardware given the vast difference in design approach between the radios?  Clearly this proposition took 9 years to solve in the PSDR world and it required hacking the radio, so why does it need to be solved in 10 minutes in the Flex world?  Remember PSDR which was originally written by Flex has been around for more than a decade.  It's as you like to say very very mature.  This means not much is changing in the software and fringe things like pre-distortion can be addressed.  

    SSDR has been around for only a couple years.  It is in its rapid growth phase of development and many much more basic things like the API's and waveform and networking which will have a much more dramatic effect on future development needs to be addressed before pre-distortion.  If one wants the radio to blossom in the future one needs to consider the infrastructure upon which the blossom will be built today.  One does not want to make ill considered decisions.   My guess is pre-distortion will be introduced when the time is judged to be right given the state of the art and the state of program development.  In the mean time the audio chain in the Flex is already very clean and quite usuable.  I'm very pleased with the state of development of SSDR.  It's performance has improved dramatically in the year I've been involved with it.  

    73  W9OY
  • np2gnp2g Member
    edited November 2015
    Absolutely true. Let's make it better. We benefit. It's a no brainier.
  • np2gnp2g Member
    edited November 2015
    Again I am not. Intimating flex position

    I am asking everyone to also ask for it to be implemented the sooner the better ,
    Please. I already have pre distortion. It is fantastic. It does exactly what I have listed. And now with auto it makes it absolutely a piece of cake to use.

    it was just fine manual. But auto it,s sweet. And this auto concern was. One of flexes concerns. If you believe remote is absolutely important. This implementation effects us all I went from reading about pre distortion. How it actually functions and what it was suppose to do to actually implementing it. And realizing ALL the benefits. For me I have it for all of flex owners it will be as fantastic as what I have found using it. Please everyone who wants to reduce splatter or who wants a cleaner audio or who wants their transmitter to place more power in their pass band please ask or say yes .
  • Joe, KQ1QJoe, KQ1Q Member
    edited February 2017
    np2g"We are the caretakers of our bands why not reduce the interference. Why not make our transmitters a good neighbor...It impacts the bands so significantly."

    I just had a QSO with an Anan-200D with PureSignal a few minutes ago. His signal looked really great -- band edges were like a knife edge. However the Elecraft K3 and Kenwood TS-990 on the QSO *also* had good waterfall patterns. Using the incredible FFT resolution of the Flex 6300 display, if I magnified it enough the Anan looked cosmetically a little better, but the only people who could see that would be other SDR users with high-res displays. 

    Whether Flex implements ADP in two months vs twelve months would have virtually no difference on the bands. Most FlexRadios I see have pretty clean signals as is. The Flex 6000 user base is a small % of HF operators. So you are talking about a subset of a subset: The Flex 6000 users (as a % of total HF operators) who don't have clean signals and who would be improved by ADP. It is a further subdivided by temporal subset, since Flex will ultimately do this, so the difference months vs maybe a year or so. That is truly microscopic against overall HF volume, and definitely would not "impact the bands significantly". Given limited development resources and a higher priority list of work items I don't see a rational reason to drop something else for an early ADP implementation.


  • np2gnp2g Member
    edited November 2015
    Thank you for your reply. If only the straight line transmissions was the only benefit it would be great. However there are far far more advantages. Benefits. Yes far more. I listed a few but this opportunity is just great for our ham radio play We have sdr radios. They just arn't. Just as good they are state of the mind. Look at all the benefits. For me it is a double yes.
  • Bob N7ZOBob N7ZO Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Joe, I concur with your on-the-air experience and your conclusion "Given limited development resources and a higher priority list of work items I don't see a rational reason to drop something else for an early ADP implementation."

    NP2G, I like the idea of improved transmit distortion too, but there is a long list of other features and capabilities I would rather see first.  But, there is nothing wrong with remaining enthusiastic about this.  :-)

    73, Bob, N7ZO
  • edited January 2018
    I suppose ADP would be a nice feature, but I'd never notice the difference.  I've made 3100 logged QSOs with the 6500 in the 15 months I've owned it.  Maybe 31 of those were on SSB, and perhaps 100 on digital modes.  All of the rest were CW.  WAN remote is a big deal to me, as I'd love to be able to really use the home station when we're travelling.

  • N7AIGN7AIG Member
    edited April 2015

    I'm curious about whether or not adaptive predistortion can also clean up the distance spurs several hundred kHz away, as reported by SM5BSZ for the Flex-1500 here:

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCQQFjAB...

  • Walt - KZ1FWalt - KZ1F Member
    edited November 2016
    3100 in 15 months? Holy Moly!!! I have maybe 1/3. One of the last times I spoke to Amir he had worked 10,000 in a month. I guess folks much prefer to talk to Israel than Connecticut.
  • N7AIGN7AIG Member
    edited April 2015
    ... I also have the impression that splatter caused by ALC action is a worse offender than FCC compliant, but slightly nonlinear, amplifiers. Nicht wahr?
  • Bill -VA3WTBBill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Looks like not much has Changed, Pure signal is still down the list of wants for a lot of Flex owners. As Dave and others pointed out the Flex is really very clean at this time. Oh by the way, have you seen an Anan without pure signal,,not so pretty, good thing they are using it. But this all seems rather boring and old. I got a better idea, why don't you guys bug the **** out of all the other radio makers who will likely never ever see pure signal. As I know of Flex is the only one who has said this is in the plans. ( Pure signal now has the ability to auto set. Yes any value watt out. automatically. One of the concerns of flex I believe was this function . ) Ed I must have missed that reply from Flex, do you have a reference to who at Flex made that comment?
  • Bill -VA3WTBBill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Ok so what you are saying, I buy an Anan and without removing the lid I just press a button and It's all done?
  • KY6LA_HowardKY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Sorry Ed But your persistent harping about ADP seems to have brought out a pretty negative reaction from this group. While I would love to be able to tinker with ADP I have to join the majority in saying that there are so many more important priorities that need to be addressed before ADP. Bill pointed out correctly that Flex is the only manufacturer to have publicly stated that they will implement,ADP in the near future. So perhaps you really need to expend all that positive energy working on the real major splatter offenders such as Kenwood, Yaesu and Icom... Oh...you can't can you? They don't listen to their American Customers do they?
  • W9OYW9OY Alpha Team Member ✭✭
    edited April 2015
    OMG  I see ANAN has instituted a new PA board for their radio which completely changes the pure signal path so now your going to have radios with different hookups.  This is going to get totally confusing for those Anan boys   Yes I would call that move a state of mind.... INSANE!!!

    73  W9OY
  • Bill -VA3WTBBill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    Lee, yup they will be spending lots of money soon to try and bring the Anan up to 3rd generation SDR. The shoe is soon to drop.
  • edited September 2015
    With the new current production ANAN units, YES.

    Built in sampling for 100w or less, and a simple BNC connection to a rear input if you want to use an external coupler after your linear amp.

    I am using the internal feedback, even when running an 8877 at legal limit, and the results are outstanding. 50db or so.

    All I do is enable the PS option and start transmitting. Full auto calibrate. That simple.

    I have been getting numerous unsolicited comments from DX stations regarding the cleanliness of my signal and how good it looks on their panadapters or waterfalls. On top of the excellent audio reports. This from some highly respected and well known DX stations, to whom money is no object, and whom own all the latest high end gear. And some were quick to tell me of their overall disappointment with their Flex 6000s, yet after seeing and hearing the ANAN, they are giving it a close look.

    The only downside is now I regularly get idiots coming within 2-3 KHz of my frequency , even after running a frequency for an hour prior. At which time I temporarily disable PS and they realize I'm there real quick.

    As to the CW ops, the CW performance has been greatly improved in recent firmware.

    Don't knock it until you've tried it. Or at least monitored someone using it. It is really that good.

    Yes, I still have my 6500. I won't knock it, but it is hard to switch back at this point.

    Eric
    K2CB
  • edited September 2015
    Clean, but not VERY clean. Compared to what? My TS990 and IC7800 with 50v PAs are VERY clean. Much cleaner, in fact, that stations I regularly converse with comment right away about my signal being not as clean, stating "you must be on the FLEX!" when I am on fact using the Flex 6500. However, FWIW, the Flex is cleaner than my IC9100. Now that is a real dog as far as IMD is concerned. Eric K2CB
  • edited May 23
    Keep drinking your Kool-Aid, folks!

    As I own both ANAN and FLEX radios, after following both camps for some time now, I have come to the following conclusion:

    Flex boys (for the most part) are appliance operators.

    ANAN boys are old school hams that have a true understanding of how and why things work.

    Just look at the level of posts and questions in both camps (aka forums, YahooGroups, Communities, etc.), and it will be quite evident real quick.

    Eric
    K2CB
  • np2gnp2g Member
    edited November 2015
    Bill that makes it 5 th generation. But who is counting. This is not about anan. The ability to have pure signal is universal. It is about all the benefits that you get. Not have. Get. Pure signal is extremely documented. So any yes any manufacturer could look at that road map and make their own version with minimal effort It's not about picking one over the other. This is an absolute win win. It transcends any difference it allows for better radio.
  • np2gnp2g Member
    edited November 2015
    Actually I'm talking with elecraft.
  • k3Timk3Tim Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Eric,

    How is it that I (or others in this community) are drinking the Kool-Aid?

    Tim

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