Phase Cancellation in Diversity Receiption for Dual SCU Radios

VE7ATJ_Don

For those of us who have radios with dual SCU's, could we please have Phase Cancelation in Diversity Reception. Similar to what something that worked well in PowerSDR for the 5000A with dual receivers.

Also, a version of this could work well in single SCU receivers using similar concepts/technology as imployed in the MFJ (and other) dual antennae noise cancellers -- taking the input from each of ANTA and B and using phase bridges to remove unwanted noise signals....

KD0RC

I agree Don. I would trade my 6400 for a 6600 today if the phase cancellation feature were implemented in the Flex dual SCU rigs.

Rick_KJ5WO

Me three!!!

73's

Rick...

Bill AB7AA

I bought my 6700's in 2016 explicitly because a Flex employee at the Yuma Hamfest said that they would be doing just that.

Still waiting!!

73,

Bill AB7AA

Trucker

Count me in as well. One of several things that should have been in SmartSDR for a very long time.

James

WD5GWY

KD0RC

Be sure to click the little up vote in this thread. Flex pays attention to the votes when making feature decisions.

Neil D Friedman N3DF

To me, the value of 2 SCUs is utilizing 2 antennas at once.

Bill AB7AA

Neil,

You are exactly correct!! There are a few things that they could improve on by the way they implement diversity reception, like being able to view both antenna spectrums simultaneously. There is much that you can tell by viewing as well as hearing.

73,

Bill AB7AA

Bob KC9RF

I have 2 SDR radios a Flex 6600 and Anan 7000DKE III. I use both for different applications. I'm not a fan boy for either radio. Just stating features I enjoy using for receive.

Two features Flex could improve on are Noise Reduction of which the Anan is much better and the Phasing control shown below for the Anan

John K3MA

See this thread from 2017. Quoting Steve-N5AC...."In other words, the two channels will provide a constant phase separation between the two outputs that will be random, but constant and stable after each tune. Changing this to a coherent tune has always been in our playbook and not hard to do -- the chief challenge is how to represent that you want this from the GUI. We have also had this request from the HF side."

7 years later.....I guess other more important things got in the way or it was harder to do than originally thought.

https://community.flexradio.com/discussion/comment/13770928#Comment_13770928?utm_source=community-search&utm_medium=organic-search&utm_term=eme+phase

ve7ovy

I would gladly pay for a new SmartSDR version that includes diversity and an effective WNB/NB for my 6600. Meanwhile all these Anan users have enjoyed diversity and an effective noise blanker all these years...? Don't get me wrong, I love my Flex products. Former 3000, 5000 and 6500 owner, and currently 6600, TGXL (1x3) & PGXL owner... Just wishing for some horsepower to be put behind development to bring the S/W up to the potential that the radios have in hardware...

Trucker

SmartSDR has Diversity Reception available for dual SCU radios. What it doesn't have is Phase Cancelation like they had ( and still have) in PowerSDR for the legacy radios. So, Diversity Reception is only half baked. As for an effective Noise Blanker, including the Wide Noise Blanker, it depends on the nature of your noise source. When it comes to noise blanking, there is no, one size fits all, noise blanker. What works for one noise source may not work for another. For my particular area and the noise I experience, the WNB works great. At our previous QTH, there were some noise sources that the WNB couldn't touch. It is simply impossible to have one that works well for everyone.

James

WD5GWY

K9YK

Right now, the WNB doesn’t work at all for any radios manufactured since March 2023. WNB works great at my QTH and is very effective. I’m very frustrated that, since I upgraded from a 6400M to a 6600 last March that I’ve lost this feature. There’s a bug ticket open for it, but it’s been a year now and Flex hasn’t addressed it.

Trucker

I can understand your frustration. My 6600M , currently visiting the Flex Radio hospital for an unrelated issue, is a first production run Radio from 2017. ( I received it February 2018 when they finally started shipping the M model radios) The WNB has worked well here. It surprises me that the problem you are experiencing is because it is a late production model. As far as I know, all of the DSP processing takes place in the radio. I would think Flex Radio's developers could write code that should take into account any differences between the older generation of hardware and the newer generation. I hope they get this sorted for you and others, sooner than later. And should my 6600M prove to be too ill to repair fully, I may have to think long and hard before purchasing a new radio if it cannot handle my local noise as well as my current 6600M does ( or did, if it's unrepairable )

James

WD5GWY

ve7ovy

Should have been more specific in my earlier post. Thank you for clarifying, James. It is the "Phase Cancellation" feature I am most desire, to eliminate noise that affects lower frequencies. I am in the middle of an urban environment where i live and operate, and that, along with an effective NB & NR would be a great software upgrade. While they're at it they could add "Puresignal" type pre-distortion feature. Heck, the PGXL has a built in sensor for it... why not complete the circle? 73 de Kevin VE7OVY

> @Trucker said:
> SmartSDR has Diversity Reception available for dual SCU radios. What it doesn't have is Phase Cancelation like they had ( and still have) in PowerSDR for the legacy radios. So, Diversity Reception is only half baked. As for an effective Noise Blanker, including the Wide Noise Blanker, it depends on the nature of your noise source. When it comes to noise blanking, there is no, one size fits all, noise blanker. What works for one noise source may not work for another. For my particular area and the noise I experience, the WNB works great. At our previous QTH, there were some noise sources that the WNB couldn't touch. It is simply impossible to have one that works well for everyone.
> James
> WD5GWY

Trucker

Phase Cancelation is something I wish Flex Radio would add to Diversity Reception in SmartSDR for the dual SCU radios. It still surprises me that they stopped short of having Phase Cancelation since it was present and working great in PowerSDR for the legacy Flex Radios. I have yet to understand why they didn't include it in Diversity Reception to begin with. They should know that anyone who has used it in PowerSDR would expect the same functions in SmartSDR. Maybe one day someone at Flex Radio will wake up and realize that there are features in their older generation of software that many of their customers expect to be in the current generation of software. Automatic Notch Filter, Noise Reduction, Phase Cancelation in Diversity Reception, an All Mode Squelch, all should be included in SmartSDR and working as good as, or better than, it did in the previous generation of software.

They hope people will be willing to pay for new features. But, if they cannot or will not, improve the existing features they shouldn't expect people to line up and pay more money only to be disappointed that features common to all modern radios don't work as well as their previous generation of radios and software.

James

WD5GWY

Neil D Friedman N3DF

Of course, these added features would have to be incorporated into Maestros and the front panels of M models.

Trucker

Neil, the front panel and the SmartSDR display are simply interfaces. The real magic takes place in the radio. The displays can easily be updated to add the necessary visual part.

James

WD5GWY

jmwallace74

After seeing this thread here in the FlexRadio community and seeing the DX Engineering NCC-2 noise phasing accessories for around $1000 (many videos on YouTube showing how effective this is), I’m not sure why I don’t already have this feature in my FlexRadio 6600. I would be willing to pay for the feature in software so not to have to purchase some hardware I can’t control remotely. I have diversity reception, but that of itself doesn’t remove noise common to both antennas. Seems like something that can be done in the FlexRadio 6600.
Thanks FlexRadio for providing one of the best SDR radio platforms available. Keep up the good work by adding this feature here. I only see these noisy spots in the bands mostly in the 80 and 160 meter bands. I’m mostly lucky to not have much noise in the other bands, but this feature would be worth paying for…
I see someone mentioning that Wide Band Noise (WBN) noise cancellation doesn’t work since 2023? I have tried to use and adjust this setting on my 6600 with no noticeable difference in noise. Is this supposed to do something for doing noise phasing?

Mike-VA3MW

I can comment on the NCC-2.

I had one with 2 unique antennas. There were times I could get it to work and other times it made no difference at all. If I changed bands, I had to start over retuning. You really had to want to tinker with it.

I also had a FLEX-5000 with beam steering in a urban environment and once in a while, I could make it work but not all the time. This is with the proper main and sense antenna setup.

Others may wish to comment.

KD0RC

For significantly less money than the NCC-2, I have a Timewave ANC-4 noise canceller. It is invaluable here in the suburbs. As Mike mentioned, there are some things that it will not take out. I think that these are signals that are equally strong on the main antenna and the noise antenna. (Same phase and/or amplitude on the main and noise antennas).

For all the junk from my close neighbors and my own house, the unit makes a huge difference. It is also invaluable when I take my 6400 camping. My solar panels, battery charger and inverter all create enough noise to completely take out 15 meters. With the ANC-4, I can run 160 - 6 without issue.

The problem I have is that I can't use it when operating remotely. It needs to be tweaked by band, time of day, what device was turned on, etc, etc. For this reason, I wish that Flex would add this feature to the 6600.

cfclaver

Since this thread is still active I will comment….

I agree with the general tone of this thread that Flex Radio has dropped the ball on including amplitude and phase control for radios with two or more SCUs. This is kind of the whole point of having two phase locked SCUs and multiple antennas. The absence of the of phase/amplitude control on SmartSDR is a major shortcoming of what is otherwise a state-of-the-art radio.

Having phase/amplitude control is why I keep my Flex 5000a going. I just spent some $$ with Troy radio to keep my 5000 alive. I also have the DXE NCC-1. The NCC-2 is a bit mor refined than the first version but they are basically the same - the 2 has more features internal that are otherwise external on the 1.

The effectiveness of noise cancellation regardless of how it is done is highly dependent on the what signal you are working with - noise cancellation and/or signal enhancement - along with the type of antennas being used. In the latter case polarization matters a lot!

I have two Beverage antennas I use on RX for 160-40. These are vertically polarized. When I use my horizontal 40m yagi as the second antenna noise cancellation is very limited. However, signal enhancement can be big - almost entirely eliminating QSB on very weak signals and knocking down random noise. When the two vertically polarized Beverages are used together I can routinely get nearly perfect noise cancelation on local line and solar noise. I also get fairly effective beam pattern steering. When I combine a Beverage with my 160m vertical I get similar results. It is all just physics…

Back to the topic… If you are watching Flex Radio… The community is begging you implement phase/amplitude control in SmartSDR for multi-SCU radios. Do this ASAP to still be considered "state-of-the-art". Other SDRs are out ahead…

Best 73s,

Chuck
de NJ6D / N7KU

jmwallace74

> @KD0RC said:
> For significantly less money than the NCC-2, I have a Timewave ANC-4 noise canceller. It is invaluable here in the suburbs. As Mike mentioned, there are some things that it will not take out. I think that these are signals that are equally strong on the main antenna and the noise antenna. (Same phase and/or amplitude on the main and noise antennas).
> For all the junk from my close neighbors and my own house, the unit makes a huge difference. It is also invaluable when I take my 6400 camping. My solar panels, battery charger and inverter all create enough noise to completely take out 15 meters. With the ANC-4, I can run 160 - 6 without issue.
> The problem I have is that I can't use it when operating remotely. It needs to be tweaked by band, time of day, what device was turned on, etc, etc. For this reason, I wish that Flex would add this feature to the 6600.
I appreciate everyone’s feedback here as of late, good discussions.I looked up the ANC-4 noise canceller and it’s only a 250 watt max device. I suppose it could be inserted after my FlexRadio 6600 and before my TunerGenius, but the lack of remote control just wouldn’t be acceptable.
Mike VA3MW, thanks for your input. Your YouTube videos are the reason I purchased the FlexRadio system. I am using my FlexRadio “remotely” 100% of the time using mostly my iPad, even when I’m in the house with my FlexRadio gear. I find being able to use my FlexRadio while being in any room of the house a great feature.
From Mike VA3MW’s comments would it be safe to say FlexRadio don’t think this feature is worth the trouble giving it would be difficult to make work and may cause lots of service calls?
Thanks everyone for your feedback.

jmwallace74

> @Mike-VA3MW said:
> I can comment on the NCC-2.
> I had one with 2 unique antennas. There were times I could get it to work and other times it made no difference at all. If I changed bands, I had to start over retuning. You really had to want to tinker with it.
> I also had a FLEX-5000 with beam steering in a urban environment and once in a while, I could make it work but not all the time. This is with the proper main and sense antenna setup.
> Others may wish to comment.
Mike VA3MW, thanks for your input. Your YouTube videos are the reason I purchased the FlexRadio system. I am using my FlexRadio “remotely” 100% of the time using mostly my iPad, even when I’m in the house with my FlexRadio gear. I find being able to use my FlexRadio while being in any room of the house a great feature.
From Mike VA3MW’s comments would it be safe to say FlexRadio don’t think this feature is worth the trouble giving it would be difficult to make work and may cause lots of service calls?
Thanks everyone for your feedback.

Russ Ravella

Hi jmwallace74,

Boy I sure hope that's not FlexRadio's opinion. A lot of us are hoping Flex restores full diversity reception capability to SSDR. It's one of the most powerful things there is to improve reception if correctly implemented. And I totally disagree with Mike Walker's comments about the NCC-2. Mine is in use 100% of the time and it makes a big difference in my far-from-desirable HOA constrained antenna situation. It's a matter of setting it up and using it properly. Anyway, just my two cents …

Good luck and 73 Russ KR6W

G8VR

All, after years and years of this I am shocked it's still being begged for and still going on deaf ears. I had a Flex hoping this would one day come back, having been available on the 5000, but it hasn't so the Flex is gone and I have an Anan 7000DLEMK2/2. I love my PGXL, which I still have, but can't see me getting another Flex unless this was once more implemented as it was in the 5k, in which case I wd buy one tomorrow (again). There is thread after thread after thread on this subject - on here and the wider web! On reflection, perhaps it's time to put it to bed and know it likely will never happen...

Best 73's Kerry G8VR

Mike VE3CKO

Kerry, I too had and still have a 5000 and I've been paying attention to this community or other resources on the internet. FlexRadio in May had a major announcement regarding a new product line, the 8000 series that and they actually are now shipping the 8400 and 8600 models. This line has more horsepower and capability for more features. One of the features to be addressed was this feature you mentioned.

I am fully confident that this and other big features and wants will be coming now that the radio has the capacity to handle these new features. May I suggestion you watch the video just released this week of Steve Hicks N5AC's presentation at Pacificon Oct.18th weekend. It should shed some direct light on your concerns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0uhETwI24w

G8VR

Hi Mike
I took a look at that video. I think he says something like "we are working on some advanced noise reduction features, but I won't spend a lot of time talking about that" - a shame as that was the only thing I was interested in. As I say, if it comes back, so will I. Thanks Kerry G8VR