DSP - ANF Performance Specification

Burch - K4QXX

Interesting. I have the same issues as you with the ANF but the TNF function works well for me. 

Mark K1LSB

"I can wait for a fix." -- Dan KG0AQ

1)  How long have we all been waiting?

2)  How long should we wait?

3)  What is a reasonable expectation for timelines for fixes to longstanding, very basic software defects that never seem to get addressed, while lots of other ****-**** features are being added to up-charged releases?

When I was trying to make up my mind whether to buy a Flex or not, I really struggled with the knowledge that I would be painting myself into the corner of being 100% dependent on one company for hardware and software support. But being ever the believer in American quality and customer support I pulled the trigger and bought into it. I've been really disappointed in Flex's commitment to software support ever since. I'll never voluntarily make that mistake again.

Bill -VA3WTB

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

Hopefully you are no longer smoldering...   :-)

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

Lionel

Works fine on W10x64.  It has help files and a manual.  Interface to DAX is straightforward.  On SL Audio I/O one of the choices will be Flex DAX 1 or 2. 

mikeatthebeach .

Maybe they need a group of new Consultants to To Write new DSP algorithms for them Since they are so limited in their resources Since spreading themselves to thin these Days with other priorities that consume their Entire staff with day to day issues and fires

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

Thanks!

Bill -VA3WTB

Neil,there really is nothing I could possibly say, To you it's very simple, black and white. With out considering the technology being used and the complexity within coding for SSDR.

I said we should be carful while comparing the Flex DSP with other radios only in the sense they work differently, and they have a much different set of problems. I understand it matters not to you what is involved, just the simple bottom line.

Flex has not really done much with the DSP since Version 1.5. And many of us have asked  Flex to get back to working on it, I would like that as well.

But if they don't? it is not a deal breaker. I could go with a radio with a better DSP performance, but that radio would have some things that work poorly as well. Choises, choises.

Mark K1LSB

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

Maybe FRS should hire Simon and point him at the steaming pile of DSP
code :-)

Bill -VA3WTB

Simon does a great job.

K5ROX

Bill -VA3WTB

Mark K1LSB

I'll upvote that post!

Mark K1LSB

The WNB does seem to work well on some types of noise. I have no complaint about WNB.

Gary Schulz

Strange. My WNB only causes my entire spectrum to jump up and down (like AGC pumping) and yes it happens at all different signal levels and gain/threshold settings. Completely useless on my 6700 and ANF is not selectable on AM where I need it most. Odd that some see benefit with these functions while many see only audio distortion (I see that with NB)... The other radios I have actually work reasonably well with noise reduction modes so not sure how this could be too location dependent.

Dan KG0AQ

"I can wait for a fix." -- Dan KG0AQ

Mark,

I became a flexer a long time ago. It began with the SDR-1000 and now my 6400. I have seen updates everyday...back in the SDR-1000 days when it was open source. It was more of a hobby company back then. 

Fast forward to 2019 and they have become a "real" company. Like any real company they follow the money. For Flex now that was V3 and multi whatever. That's fine by me. I'm not interested in V3 functions but they are a FOR profit company...it is their call. They listen to all customers but generally ones that they will profit from.

As I stated in the first EHam 6400 review, you have to be a patient person with Flex Radio and their software. If not go buy one of the other big three and be happy instantly and it will never change...besides firmware upgrades.

Our society has become a want it now, fast food, drive through mentality society. Once more, it's only a hobby. My advice is to chill and ANF will get fixed.

Somehow I have 312 countries confirmed with a bad ANF. No big deal breaker.

BTW  I love the WNB and TNF. They work well for what they were designed to do.

73 Dan KG0AQ

Robert Lonn

Craig Williams

Yup, I knew I could not be the only one.

James Whiteway

Just an FYI for those of us hoping that the upcoming v2.50 maintenance release would contain improvements to the ANF, the short answer is no. According to Tim Ellison on the FRS Facebook page, when I posed the question to him, if the ANF issues would receive some needed attention, his response was: "James Whiteway If it wasn't in 3.0.19 and the upcoming maintenance release for 3.0.19, then the answer is no. If we decide to do a 2.6, it might, but that is just speculation on my part. There is no talk at this time about doing a 2.6 " I find his answer disappointing, but at least it is a clear, and honest, answer. It gives me an idea as to what, if any, options, I might look for to address this problem for myself. I can either upgrade to v3.0.10 and hope someday, this issue, along with others, finally receive the attention they need. Or, I can look towards other manufacturers of SDR radios that already have a basic features working to their full potential. ( along with some other, useful to me features) Time will tell. James WD5GWY Oh, Bill. It appears.you were spot on, with your statement regarding the .v2.50 update. If I came across as a bit harsh in my response to you, please accept my sincere apologies

John Orjias

It may have already been mentioned, a lot to read in this thread, but making the decay longer as you increase the filter might be good to help keep it from letting stuff slip through when there is talking

Bob Crowley

Benchmarking against the best performance in the category is a very simple and objective method. Those with Flex and ANAN in their shacks of course can A-B compare them easily. This is where the trouble starts: Those few of us who are fortunate to have both systems see a large performance deficit between the effective and excellent NR2 and whatever is in the Flex. The trouble then gets bigger letting years pass after this was clearly recognized, and doing nothing about it.

Trucker

Just for the fun of it, I bought a Hermes Lite 2 so I could have an inexpensive way to try OpenHPSDR and Theis. Warren Pratt's NR2 and his Automatic Notch Filter are simply amazing. With NR2 engaged, background hiss just disappears. No distorted audio at all.

And the ANF just works. All in software no hardware filtering at all. Multiple carriers are notched out without degrading the signal one is trying to listen to. I honestly love my 6600M. But, the fact that a $300 qrp transceiver running FREE software has better DSP capability than my $5,000.00 Flex 6600M is pitiful. It's too bad Warren Pratt's software is under GPL licensing. If it wasn't, maybe FRS could hire him to fix what has not worked like it should have, years ago. I still use my Timewave 599zx outboard filter. And the ANF in it works great. Sad basic features present in all modern HF radios are only partially done in sich expensive radios like the 6000 Series.

Maybe someday....

James

WD5GWY

Mike-VA3MW

James

I listen to HF nets all day with no squelch and with the AGC-T set correctly, the background noise is less than the circulation fan I use.

If the AGC-T is set too high, then, yes, there is a roaring background noise.

How do you have your AGC-T adjusted? It sounds like you have it set a bit too high.

Mike

Mike Steventon

Reading the query, I think the problem is referring to the performance of the automatic notch filter, ANF.

I do have to admit that it could perform better. My old Kenwood TS440S manual notch filter was easily able to notch out a "tight" tone. My 6600M kind of leaves a residual after each inflection of the voice signal, even when ANF is set to maximum. My solution is to use the Tuneable Notch filter, which is REALLY good, but more of a fiddle to set up.

Trucker

Mike,

I tend to keep the AGC-T set pretty low. I have always thought the noise reduction in SmartSDR was great. And for the most part it is. But, Warren Pratt's NR2 completely removes any background hiss. Had I not experienced the difference, I woul, and really am, satisfied with the noise reduction in SmartSDR.

But, the ANF is not good. A tuner upper tuning on top of a qso can still be heard popping thru a conversation no matter the settings used.

On the other hand, the ANF in OpenHPSDR and SDR Console knock it completely out without distorting the audio in any way. All done in software with no special filters in the radio itself.

As for an All Mode Squelch, I know several people find such a thing useful. I know FRstack has one. ( implementation suggested by me a frw years ago) And it works well. But, a Squelch should be a basic part of a modern HF radio. I have 30 year old radios with all mode Squelch and working Notch Filters.

Someone said earlier, ( which caused me to respond to this thread) that maybe in V4 of SmartSDR we would gat an all mode Squelch and a working ANF. But, I won't be purchasing a V4 to get basic WORKING features that should have been in SmartSDR long ago.

I love the 6000 series hardware. But, in my opinion, the software desperately needs attention. And I have pretty well come to the conclusion that basic features will never get the attention they need.

Lucky for me I found a good deal some time ago on a Timewave 599zx outboard filter. The ANF is absolutely great.

James

WD5GWY

Trucker

Forgot to mention, I am using a 6600M. Using the TNF to notch out carriers is a real PIA when using the front panel. I like the choice of using the radio stand alone or with my PC and SmartSDR. But, it shouldn't matter which interface I use. The basic features should just, work.

WK2Y

For me, the noise reduction on the Flex is hit or miss. Under some conditions it is absolutely great but it does take futzing to get it right. On other occasions, it seems to do nothing no matter what settings I try. And yes, I have watched Tim's video and read the guidance multiple times.

https://helpdesk.flexradio.com/hc/en-us/articles/360029494371-How-does-the-Automatic-Gain-Control-AGC-work-in-SmartSDR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WUWuAS24uM&t=4s

I recently acquired a TX 500 and have commented elsewhere that the noise reduction on it works with just a push of the button regardless of the conditions. It is a little disconcerting.

73,

Bob, WK2Y