My Take on SSDR v3

Scott Russell - N1SER

This is my take on the new v3 update to SSDR as compared to another recent (same day I think) update I've done to another product I have which is a Sony A7III mirrorless camera.

I have the Flex 6400 with ATU... Cost around what... $2200

I also have a Sony A7III camera that also cost around the same as a 6400 at $1999

When I purchased the Flex 6400 less than a year ago, we were on some version 2.x.x of SSDR. In less than a year of ownership we've seen a couple point releases of v2 and now a full release of v3. The upgrade to v3 as we all know is $199 US. In this release I can honestly say that there is nothing that really makes me excited or enhances my use of the radio. I think there is a lot of polish and other little features that many of us would like to see but it's just not there.

I know, I know... did I read the release notes?... I didn't have to buy it... bla bla bla..... Save it.

Now let's talk about the Sony A7III, a new camera model released in 2018 like Flex 6400. I've owned this camera for less than a year just like the Flex but actually several months less. In that time the camera went from v1 to v2 and now, just this week Sony released v3 of the camera firmware. All of the upgrades were free. Each of the upgrades added new features and especially v3 which added 2 new major feature adds/updates which add new functionality to the camera that was not previously there. This is a win and make the camera even more enjoyable and functional.

So in the end I now have a Flex 6400 that has cost me around $2400 over less than a year and no real improvement or added functionality that makes it a better product and more enjoyable to use than when I first purchased it.

The Sony A7III on the other hand has cost nothing extra in the time I've owned it (other than buying more lenses) and the company has added valued updates to it's functionality that probably 90% of its uses can enjoy.

This is the frustration I have with Flex. In the short time I've owned the radio it's cost me more $$ for software updates but has not improved the functionality nor added any polished features to the software.

I know I'm going to get the flaming arrows my way, just like other times I've expressed my thoughts but that's ok, I can take it because it seems to be the way of this community. But I wanted to share my thoughts and make a comparison to another equally priced piece of tech that I own.

Now before you say... sell your flex or x brand does or doesn't do this or that... Dude don't waste your time. We've heard it all enough already.

Saying all this I still like the 6400. It's a nice radio. The hardware looks cool but the software (which drives the whole thing) is not the best out there and that's disappointing.

Hopefully someone at Flex reads this and accepts the criticism and then does something to remedy it. In the meantime it's just another radio. Nothing really special like I thought it would be before I bought into the system. Hopefully we'll see more improvements in the software and some of those features others have suggested will make it into the product.

At this point I, can only hope.

Scott, N1SER

Neil D Friedman N3DF

Sounds like they launched the Sony camera with half-finished software.

Bob G W1GLV

Scott, if your not happy sell the radio and keep taking pictures.

Henry Sung

Scott, I could not agree more.

I also got Flex6400 almost more than 1 year ago. I have very satisfied to operate Flex so far However with this kind of not free update which means 10% price up every year.
I do not want to purchase Flex anymore in the future. 
It is hold up customer to ridicule I think.

DE HL1BRU

jerry stern

Its not about being unhappy with the radio, its about good customer relationships.  Lots of great products never had long term customer retention because of short-sighted marketing decisions.  I bought my 6700 from Flex exactly two years ago.  Three months after purchase, v2 came out and Flex would not give me a free upgrade and I shelled out $199.  Now another $199 for v3 in just 2 years from purchase.  I love my Flex but perhaps not enough based on this track record that I wont give another manufacturer a whirl in the future.  BTW, my previous radio was an IC-7800 and Icom gave out free firmware/software upgrades (many with substantial improvements) for free over the almost 10years I owned that rig.  

Dave - W6OVP

Bravo! Right on targetS.

My concern is that the clock is quietly ticking and you know there are elves working overtime elsewhere to enter this emerging market. And if they offer a decent product FLEX will drop. May be too late then to spend the needed money on software customers actually want.

The business horizon is strewn with corpses of once prosperous businesses that failed to listen to what customers want and insisted on telling them what they want instead. Ham Radio has many such examples.

There is nothing wrong here that listening more to customers and less to sycophants and noisy fan boys won't cure.

James Del Principe

Scott, I can't fault Flex for wanting to charge for a substantial upgrade in software even if it has not helped my operation. Release 2 gave remote operation and release 3 multi-operator operation, neither of which I partake. The issue I have is that the noise reduction and blanker do not work very well at my release 1 level compared to my TS-990 S which is clearly superior in that regard.
I paid nearly twice for my 6500 than what you did at $ 4300.00 for the Flex transceiver and $ 100.00 for the Flex control.
It would be nice to have noise reduction that does not distort a signal badly at a level that begins to reduce the noise.
The two respondents referring to your camera were not helpful. Such sarcasm is not warranted for Scott's observations.
None the less, let me state that I am committed to using my Flex 6500 and I'm spoiled by the features it does have. Right now I am unable to go downstairs to my basement shack due to a recent surgery so I'm operating "couch mobile" on my laptop courtesy of WiFi......at release 1.
Would anyone like to buy the TS-990 S?    HI HI.     73 All, Jim     KD1I

Gary Schulz

I must say that I also agree with the original poster... I have a 6700 and I like the general concept of the radio HW but the SW seems a bit uncooked. Almost like it is lagging behind what I think the ultimate capability of the HW is. This release doesn't do anything that would cause me to want to spend an additional $200 so I can't complain about the lack of features or polish! It does appear that whenever anyone says anything the least bit critical that the antibodies come out of the woodwork to protect the mother ship. No need in this case because I think it is an impressive product, but my background is in industrial/commercial wireless data products that cost at least as much as this consumer product and we never charge for SW upgrades even when they bring in new modulations and significant performance enhancements. Just my 2 cents...

Scott Russell - N1SER

Much like Flex?

Scott Russell - N1SER

I'm with you Jerry.

Scott Russell - N1SER

You know it!

Scott Russell - N1SER

Predictable Bob... I actually said that in my post.

Scott Russell - N1SER

Thanks Jim. Hey, I love the remote operation of Flex. That is the one thing that really excited me before being a Flex user. And see, for someone that can't get to their rig, you can still operate. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

I'll trade you a 6400 for the TS-990! haha

Kevin

Nothing more can be said that wasn't already covered above. I agree with the original poster and feel it's a poor selling point , that Flex feels they need to maintain proprietary software at such a cost with so little too gain for the average user.

Scott Russell - N1SER

Right on!

James Del Principe

Scott, You would love the audio, both receive and transmit....but hate the display....just does not match up to the Flex.
BTW, there are 150 front panel controls on the TS-990 S....a knob tweekers delight.

James Del Principe

Software, by its very nature, is never static unless a manufacturer gives up on the product. There is always a possibility of making improvements or adding features - some with value to the customer and some marginal. I worked in medical x-ray for 43 years with a major manufacturer of cardiac labs that started at 1.2 megabucks. When they became software based, there was an effort to make a new release every 6 months...a mistake to be sure and that fell by the wayside.   But, big improvements were made over the years and some amazing things were created.  Some we gave away (mostly bug fixes) and some we charged. That's the nature of the software beast.

KY6LA_Howard

This Topic/Debate has been around since 2012 when Flex first announced an annual $200 software maintenance fee. That quickly changed from annual to Version fee which come out every 2 years or so HAMS ARE CHEAP. ANYTHING OTHER THAN FREE IS TOO MUCH. The issue is that Flex unlike Sony is a tiny company with a small product base over which it can amortize costs of software development. Hence the need for a fee. Interestingly enough, in spite of the disappointment expressed by a small number of vociferous users of V3 , multi client as delivered in V3.0 was by far the most asked for new feature requested

Duane_AC5AA

You wrote it off in the original post, but if you didn't want what the new release offered, why did you buy it?  Another fine radio company, which used to reside in Tennessee, made the mistake of offering DSP based (heavily software derived) radios and FREE upgrades.  Pretty soon everybody wanted many different things - too many to try to develop at once.  They offered updates, more complaints because, as happens, bugs creep in while adding code.  Update after update, and no income stream - but everyone wanted new stuff.  That operating model surely didn't do that fine radio company any good.  And now it is gone, for all intents and purposes.  You or I may disagree with what Flex decides is important for their next release of software, but telling you what is in the release and allowing you to choose whether to purchase it or not is not a failing - it's a strong point.  Perhaps more research on what customers want prior to defining contents of a release would help, but the purchase model is one that will help sustain the company.  Something we all want.

stevenab

Scott,I’m in the same mind set. I put my money down at Dayton for a 6600 and the New App. Also paid for the extended warranty. I’ve had the radio maybe 14 months now upgrade charges. Would have been nice for a discount? I will say with all said my experience with support has been outstanding. Maybe if we knew of a annual charge it would not seem So over the top.

KD7CAO

Spot on. I bought 4 Flex 6700 and Maestros with the understanding we had full remote capability at time of purchase. It took about a year longer to actually get v2. It was kinda better but not really what we wanted. My multiple critiques posted over the years has been met with flaming arrows. We were not hams buying radios but a government agency for Emergency Communications. Not sure we will buy yet another software upgrade. I was under the impression upgrades were going to be regular and free. Guess not.

Kuby, N6JSX

Scott you're a breath of fresh air vs. the zealots that worship all things FLEX. All to often I see sound meaningful critical viewpoints harshly ripped (as you will be soon).  I've had 3K & 5K and got a 6300 ~8mo ago - it is still in the box, why?

Well here is where FLEX fails newbies - WHERE are the easy HOW-TOO setup vid's or PPT in setting up our 6K on the specific OS / PC & Network? Then all the other stuff that is needed to make the 6K's sing - virtual this or that, extra pgm this or that, add on hardware this or that, special OS mods to do this or that?

There are NO newbie SIMPLE 'quick-to-air mode' to any of the programs. Such as a less featured bare-basic mode that will take a newbie one-step at a time growing you into your large radio investment - notta.Then a vid on HOW-TOO add each special extra program(s) letting the 6K's sing louder and better - notta.     

Just after getting my 6300 they came out with V3 that will cost me even more - that is a complete turn off to me and why I never bought into HRD. Besides I don't give a rats about sharing my station with anyone and so far that is what V3 is all about. If I'm wrong then FLEX is doing a **** poor job of educating newbies - one-line brevity does not always educate.  Plus with all the MSGs flying about V3 this week it reminds me of MS-Windows and why you always wait +4mo AFTER the first Service Pack comes out before upgrading/buying - or suffer their poor QA.

So my 6300 sits in its box as I just don't have the desire to take on another technical struggle just to key-up the darn radio. I'll continue with my simpler, easier, no frills IC-9100 (that has 2m/70cm), until "FLEX" creates REAL support and not by just tapping their worshiping guru's.  

Michael McGinty

I’ve been a software engineer since computers had vacuum tubes. Flex has not done a great job of running their software projects since they started. The 5000 software was so poor they abandoned it. Fortunately the open source community rescued it and turned it into a pretty good program. I had hoped that the experience might have shown Flex what is possible when you open up the software to the community. Sun bought a poor Unix office product and released it to open source. It’s now LibreOffice, a great software product. Sun might still be around if listened to it’s customers and become more open. They had good ideas and good severs, but they had arrogant management that cost them their leadership of the Internet and their company.

Kevin

I will never understand the resistance to trying to hold Flex to a better standard. Those people complaining are the same ones that are still paying up to $7000 for new radios and $100/yr average for software and hoping that, for the money, they will be heard and some of their issues will be addressed.

Are you hearing that there are people out there that just want old problems fixed?

Then the cheerleaders - what are they saying?

• You don't have to buy it! Yet if you don't...
• You should be supporting all the good Flex and company have done! Yet when you do...
• You shouldn't complain because you bought it and you knew what you were getting into.

Well guys, when I buy something I feel vested. I feel like I have a say. Don't make useless comparisons to cars, software or anything else out there. Flex has created this ugly situation and it seems quite unique in the market. Great hardware, lousy software (or old, or tired, or focused on the few, whatever) and you need to pay up AND shut up? NO ALTERNATIVE.

Get off the high horse and let Flex answer for themselves and maybe grow in the doing. If the most requested feature in the past two years has been multi (I have serious doubts), and this is what Flex comes up with, then everyone should be upset.

Bill... no need.

73,
Kev N4TT

Neal_K3NC

I think this is a valid view (after all, it came from someone who bought and uses the product!). One of the reasons this community is so valuable is that it allows customers to directly (and politely) give feedback to Flex. The people there do care about how the customer feels and will read it. Thanks for taking your time to document it.

Burt Fisher

I echo Neil and Scott. Elecraft sold me a KX3 and a PX3, the updates cost nothing (such as increasing power) and they didn't **** some earlier functions. Plus it all worked from day one. Didn't Flex sell transceivers with no FM?

KY6LA_Howard

@Michael.. I too have been working with computers since 1958.

BUT you have your history of Flex a bit backwards. 

Flex developed the original open source software PowerSDR and supported it for free for years.  Unfortunately for Flex they made the investment which basically benefited their competitors who spent no money on software development.  When Flex stopped working on PowerSDR it languished for a long while until a single developer took up the cause.


To better leverage their investment, Flex, like Apple iPhone, decided that the new product SSDR would be proprietary.

Don

How much did the IC7800 cost?

Scott Russell - N1SER

Howard I think your wording in this reply has been around for just as long. Don't you have anything better to say or assume that because I'm a ham I'm cheap? Remember what they say about assuming.

I have to call BS on your last statement, I think the number of disappointed users is larger than you think and where exactly did Flex ask what the most requested feature should be? I don't remember getting a call or email or seeing anything regarding Multi client. I would have never voted multi client as the most wanted new feature.

Kuby, N6JSX

Kevin, I have a leading question - who is FLEX's biggest customer(s)? Surely not HAMdom. So logic would say that Multi-Share is an offshoot of a bigger customer request.

I OP'ed my cousins 6700 last fall and found to my great disappointment that my hope of FLEX fixing the useless SSB DSP in 3K/5K/PwrSDR is still as useless in the 6K's/SmtSDR. I can only assume that FLEX's big customers do not need a working SSB DSP,, hence it will never get fixed (or made useful) as my IC-9100/7000.  

Bill -VA3WTB

Lol, I love it !!!