DXLab Does Not Support SmartSDR v 3

Al_NN4ZZ

Hi Pat,

RE: "...but the question remains (unless it was answered in all that) will DX Labs , Slice Master and CW Skimmer work with V3 when it is released or not?"

The answer for CW Skimmer may depend on what third party application you are using to connect it to SSDR.   There is a list of the programs  on the "Works with Flex" list that integrate with your Flex Radio.  https://www.flexradio.com/works-with-flex/

But it sounds like some of the programs listed may not be supported on V3.  If this is correct, it may make sense to update the page to show the V2 / V3 status?  For example I use SDR-Bridge. 

Maybe something like this...



Regards,  Al / NN4ZZ  
al (at) nn4zz (dot) com

Pat N6PAT

I use Slice Master to launch CW Skimmer. after that is running then I use DX Lab Launcher to activate Spot Collector.



K3SF

First off
To Dave, i owe you an apology..
After additional research, the api non-compatibility impacts are worse than it first appears.



An explanation on how we got into this situation is is nice
but
real issue for this user is how do I as a flex user go forward.

I so wanted V3 to work
and 
to work in my computer environment ( Macs)
but.
now it seems it wont....or at least any time soon

What else is broken first comes to my mind.

api non-compatibility disrupts the whole flex eco-system which from my perspective includes third party software

Being a Mac user it now seems there are even more widespread impacts
and
i thank Don Agro on correcting me
and
making me read the 'fine print' on his website for MLDX

Question #1
When V2.5 is released will it have the same non-compatible api?

Question#2
When will Flex update the 3rd party software compatible matrix with various version ssdr?

Question #3
Did any of the Alpha testers raise this non-compatibility issue of 3rd party software failure?


Just saying there are a lot more unanswered questions at this time regarding  V3
V3 is great concept....implementation  MMMmm   i have my second thought on that at the moment.

I still think my flex 6600m ( v.2.4.9) is a great radio as it is now
but
i just know it could be so much more

At this stage i am in wait and see mode cause my ham radio experience is more than just the radio. It is the whole composition of hardware and software ( 3rd party s/w) that augment and "interface" with the radio.

Paul K3SF

mlstutler

Steve's answer pretty much tells me what I already thought.   To sum it up in Star Trek terms  "The needs of Flex out weigh the needs of the 3rd party developers."  

Bill - W9KKN

Just out of curiosity, do you have to use the 3.x FlexLib, or will the 2.x assemblies still communicate with a 3.x radio? If the latter were the case, couldn't you continue using the old methods and have the API contract between your application and FlexLib remain the same until you decided to use the new FlexLib?

Bill -VA3WTB

So as I read, it sounds like V3 is not and will not be backwords compatible. Steve explained why. So the developers will need to make their software to work with each Version on their own. Looks like some software will not work with V3 out of the gate, but if the developer is willing to go the extra mile, it will be.

We are going to wait and see how this shacks out.

Pat N6PAT

But the needs of the cash paying Flex customers outweigh anything and the cash paying Flex customers want to be able to use those third party packages

Dave AA6YQ

1. My comments in this thread are neither harsh, nor voracious; they are accurate.

2. Given your public announcement of imminent SmartSDR v3 availability, I had no choice but to inform the DXLab user community that the current version of DXLab does not support v3, and to explain why not. 

3. Steve, you've made two serious errors:

A. Knowing before you initially released the SmartSDR API that supporting multiple simultaneous clients was on the roadmap, you should have designed the API with that support in mind. Doing so would not have required implementing multiple simultaneous client support. Thinking it through sufficiently to to avoid a later non-upward-compatible API change would have been sufficient. 

B. Having missed the opportunity to avoid this situation, you confronted a tradeoff. You characterized an upward-compatible v3 API as "less understandable and would look awful over time". Given a choice, this 3rd party developer would have strongly preferred "deal with a single API whose latest additions are complex and ugly" over "rework my application to support two non-upward-compatible APIs". You made the wrong call. Had you made the right call, every 3rd party application would support SmartSDR v3 out of the gate.

No one who knows you, Steve, doubts that your intentions were good. Unfortunately, we live with outcomes, not intentions.

Bill -VA3WTB

Sounds like the line is made then, I hope some other developers will be interested in working with Flex on this, here is to hoping.

Dave AA6YQ

As for "We were asked to write a comprehensive guide on how SmartLink works for developers", I asked Eric KE5DTO months ago for a simple explanation of how to connect to a remote 6XXX via SmartLink. This is, what, 15 minutes of work for a knowledgeable engineer? Still waiting...

Jon_KF2E

Maybe V4's main feature is going to be repairing the API so we can use third party apps again?

Mike VE3CKO

I know Mark WS7M (FRlogger) has already said he's working on it, and I thought I read SliceMaster is too. Carl Moreschi, N4PY has said "my software is fully functional with V3.  I am an alpha tester and my software works very well on all Flex versions."
So I do think developers will decide to move forward with v3 or not, that is obvious their own decision. Either they will get with the program or don't. Again all this sky is falling talk is so counter productive. Steves' statement says it all. He put it all out there taking ownership in an open, honest statement, and yet that still isn't good enough, the complaining continues. Wow.

Pat N6PAT

"So the developers will need to make their software to work with each Version on their own."

Wrong. These third party packages are probably used by the vast majority of Flex owners. It is in Flex's best interest to work with the developers and not leave them to retool their software alone.

Otherwise they may see a significant drop off  in upgrade purchases to the point where there may no longer be a financial incentive for Flex to develop future upgrades to SSDR,

I would like to know if those of you that are lining up for V3 and MultiFlex are still planning on the upgrade if you cannot use the third party utilities.

Dave AA6YQ

Bill, let me introduce you to the concept of "opportunity cost". Every development team has a finite number of developers, testers, and writers. A decision to assign personnel to accomplish task A means those personnel cannot accomplish task B. Thus the "opportunity cost" of assigning personnel to task A is a delay in the availability of task B. 

Thus the question is not "are developers willing to go the extra mile?", but rather "will developers prioritize re-working their applications to support SmartSDR v3 over the many other opportunities they have to provide more value to their user community.

Given SmartSDR v3's new functionality is primarily aimed at contesters, 3rd party developers of contesting applications will likely consider supporting it to be a high priority relative to alternative opportunities.

DXLab, on the other hand, is explicitly not a contesting application; its focus is on DXing, with strong support for general operation. If it weren't for the fact that some DXers are also contesters who would prefer to not have to switch SmartSDR versions before and after each contest weekend, there would be little reason to extend DXLab to support SmartSDR v3.

Bill -VA3WTB

Thank you Pat,,I am sure your not saying anything that Flex had not carefully considered.
My point was,,I think you missed it.  Steve explained the Flex posission and said he is to blame for much of the confusion as he has not kept up with these things as he should have, give Steve credit for being honest, as he always is.

But this is were we are at the moment, each software will need to be made to work with V2 and V3 separately, as both API are not compatible with each other. Only if a developer is willing to do this will a software be compatible with V3.

Un like you, I do not beleive this problem will be for ever, and that it spells the end of Flex Radio. I think down the road the developers will make the changes needed as they work with Flex in the transition.
And perhaps Steve could become more active in aiding this change over.

Steve K9ZW

@Dave AA6YQ. - as contesting is only one scenario for use of the capabilities of v3 would you think the v2-compatible DXLab could suffice for non-contest use with v3? Would seem there are many more possibilities that would benefit from seamless v3 integration unless I’m seeing someth8ng not there. 73 Steve K9ZW

K3SF

there are a few scenarios other than contesting where V3 would be "nice" to have.

One of my  planned usage is to let my 6600m run on three band checks checking FT8 activity and needed band fill and alerting me. while i take the dog for a walk and do pedestrian mobil on ssb.

another was dx hunting on cw, using cwskimmer on couple bands while doing some 40m net activity

still another, is letting a friend use couple bands dx hunting from his new england retreat while i work my last ATNO for HR.

there a quite a few other scenarios for V3 besides contesting....
and
all of them require the api to work with other 3rd party s/w that currently works with V2
but will no longer work with V3

all of my scenarios are currently blown out of the water...

V3 would have been another opportunity to maximize the results and pleasure of my limited ham time...even though retired here..ham time is still precious commodity to come by.

Paul K3SF

Gary Huber

I am seriously looking at buying a new 6600, but I am primarily a DXer with a real "investment" in DXLab Suite. I'm also seriously considering purchasing a Maestro, but it looks like I'll take a pass on SmartSDR V3 until this "backward compatibility" issue shakes out. I was going to get my order in this week, but I may have to rethink things. AB9M

Dave AA6YQ

I am an active DXer with a Flex 6500. I'm not aware of anything in SmartSDR v3 that would better support my needs than does v2. Not one of the 5200+ members of the DXLab Discussion Group has posted anything of the form "I hope DXLab will soon support SmartSDR v3, because ..." As I posted above, it's obvious that those who participate in contests would prefer to not have to switch SmartSDR versions before and after.

If you're aware of value in SmartSDR v3 that I'm overlooking, by all means please describe it.

Dave AA6YQ

Thanks for the scenarios, Paul. What sort of antenna configuration do you have that permits you to operate on multiple bands simultaneously? Are you a contester?

KY6LA_Howard

@Dave... While I used to be an active contester.. now I primarily DX and Remote. 
Here are some non contest V3 scenarios

I tend to watch 2 -4 bands simultaneously on my 6700 with a computer dedicated to SSDR/W.with FT8 (AntA - SteppIR MonstIR Beam and AntB Multiband Dipole)

With V3. I now keep a second copy of SSDR running in the background on my main (not radio) computer so when I hear an announcement of DX I want, I can just pounce on it without having to change operating positions to get to the radio.


Second Scenario when I am remote, the Radio computer sends me needed spots to my cell phone and I pounce on it via SSDR/iOS

Third Scenario.. I sometime schlep a Maestro.. Again the Radio computer alerts me to DX then the Maestro is used to make the Q

Fourth Scenario.  While the MonstIR owns the Pacific, there is a mountain between me and EU.  So I log onto my buddies MonstIR on the other side of the mountain about 30miles away to work the EU while he uses mine to work the Pacific.  Both of us can use our own radios to transmit and one instance of the remote to receive

K3SF

hi dave

Dont do much serious contesting, i just get on and have fun seeing if i can do dxcc over a weekend on a single band or some other self imposed criteria,
BUT
i am avid DX'er for sure..i am just one short of HR at 330 confirmed...
and
have 8 band dxcc
i have to admit that mldx by Don Agro has helped a lot in my pursuit of DX.

The ability to mix my own cwskimmer into overall cluster/spots list helped my on 80m dxcc where world spots are mostly useless
also the way he setup filtering and alarming is great too



The antenna farm has shrunk some.. current antennas are 8 element LPDA T8 by tennydyne,( 20 thru 10m and have used it on 6m too) T8 sit on a hazer trolley on 45ft tower. 

145 ft OCF at 60ft -- for 80 thru 6m)
and

43ft vertical - works best on 40 thru 20m 

There was a DXEE multi-band dipole and sloper at one time...i try to make all my antenna are multi-band.

i also use a 6x2 antenna matrix switch( WX0B sixpack) so i can have two different antennas feeding my 6600M or split to other radios (ic7300 as my backup) with other switches


on my property ( aprox ~ 2acres)  most of my trees are old forest typically over 100ft tall and over 200 years old...but branches do fall down and bring down the wire antennas..winter ice storms or strong thunder storms have made ... i install skyhooks using slingshot method...and use counterweights to help the antennas stay up in swinging trees

one of the best episodes is when i had an OCF taken down my a branch that was 18 inches in diameter and its counter-weight was up at 60ft in the air.  Used chainsaw to free the OCF and it popped backup into place..and still worked fine

pic of the station




Paul K3SF

Dave AA6YQ

Howard, thanks! With two antennas, what sort of switching to you use to support simultaneous multiband operation?

Paul, thanks as well!

Manuel - W4SSB

Whether you agree with Steve or not you have to admit he is one very articulate guy !!! Wish I could express myself in words as he does.

Pat N6PAT

I'm seeing a number of replies in email notifications yet they do not appear in the thread. What's going on?

KY6LA_Howard

Switching... V3 does it for me as the profile selects the band and antenna automatically.  - it also keys the right relay to activate my SPE-2K when I want power.

While I have some physical separation between antennas my 6700 seems to have enough isolation that I can transmit on 40M on AntA and Still receive OK on AntB on 20M or vice versa.  I forgot to mention I also have a Mag loop antenna for low band reception which does a marvelous job hearing in noisy conditions.  so I sometimes run 2 receive antennas on the same band while working a second band.

Dave AA6YQ

Many thanks for the info, Howard!

N8FNR

The comments show up on the previous page as they were from people commenting on other comments.

Mack

As an Alpha tester currently using V3 of SmartSDR I'd like to offer that DXLabs is working perfectly well in my environment. In fact, for my use cases I can tell no difference from the behavior I see in SSDR version 2.4.9. I am able to run two Maestro's one two separate bands and one shows up in VFO A and the other in VFO B in DXLabs. I am not questioning Dave's position just informing you that all is well here with version 3.0. I recommend you give it a try when 3.0 is released.

73,

Mack
W4AX
Alpha Team

Patrick

Has a list of 3rd party apps been tabulated that are known to fail with V3?