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Why you need a PGXL?

KY6LA_Howard
KY6LA_Howard Member ✭✭✭
The PGXL seems to be a superb advanced Amp capable of 1500W Key Down for extended periods of time which is totally integrated into the Flex Echo System with accompanying industry leading remote and SO2R Capabilities..

However, on an earlier thread about PGXL delivery dates, there was a lot of pissing and moaning from a select few that people really do not need 1500W because those select few magically seemed to have the propagation gods on their side working one or two rare dx using 100W with a wet noodle for an antenna

Personally I have a superb Antenna System (SteppIR MonstIR @85' near the top of a mountain with an unobstructed view to the Pacific) and yet I find that there are times when I need every watt I can put out to make that ultra rare contact.  

This is particularly true with FT8 where I have at least a 6db gain advantage and many times I have as much as a 25dB gain advantage over the DX station... This asymmetry of signal strengths is due to the fact that they have poor antenna systems, **** receivers and huge losses due to using external sound card interfaces.  

My current SPE 2K-FA will only sustain about 1000W on FT8 which is obviously not enough to work that -24dB signal when I have a 24dB gain advantage,,,basically every extra watt I can put out really can make the difference when trying to work that rare weak one... NO.. I can't wait until they get stronger because many of those weak ones are DXPeditions which may never happen again..


The point of this posts.. is to give a forum for the POWER POLICE to rant and rave about those of us with big towers, antennas and amps - and hopefully once they are done ranting here they wont interfere with other threads about the PGXL and other Amps.


Hopefully this will be a civil discussion...
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Answers

  • K2KXK
    K2KXK Member ✭✭
    edited January 2020
    I’m really confused. I thought FT8 was a low power mode.
  • Mark WS7M
    Mark WS7M Member ✭✭
    edited June 2020
  • KY6LA_Howard
    KY6LA_Howard Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2020
  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2020
    At this point, I can only dream of having a PGXL, especially as I put my retirement plans in place. When I move to the new place, I will first seek to get a 65 ft tower up with an even better antenna than my T-11 Log at 38 ft. Here. Then add inverted “L” antennas on 80 & 160, and radials under them. Then an Antenna Genius, Then an upgrade to a 6600. Then start saving for a PGXL. It wouldn’t make best sense for me invest in the perfect amp before upgrading my rig to an SO2R capable rig. But from what I have read, it looks like the perfect amp for me. But this project is going to take some time. Ken - NM9P
  • KF4HR
    KF4HR Member ✭✭
    edited November 2018
  • mikeatthebeach .
    mikeatthebeach . Member ✭✭
    edited April 2019
    Well This Summer on 6meter FT8 from the
    Southern California Area Many of the Big Guns
    With PSK reporter for the 1st time worked
    About 20 to 30 stations in Europe and Africa

    Many found that only by using 1500Watts
    Out with those with big antenna 7 elements
    Or more on 80 foot to 90 foot towers did a
    Major Accomplishment this year to establish
    New Records and learn about 6meter Propagation

    Many found that with only Max Power that
    With sporadic E openings and Multi-hop
    That the paths (bearings) were asymmetric
    And a lot of new information was learn on
    These paths and propagation

    For someone to say 100watts is all you need
    On FT8 sporadic E openinings and Multipaths
    On 6 meters from say Los Angeles to Lagos
    Nigeria or Europe are kidding themselves

    Totally agree with Howard that certain applications
    It takes all you can deliver to make that DX contact

    On 6meters most openings are open for a few minutes
    And Every Secoond Counts to make that sporadic E
    Multi hop Contact on 6meters

    73 Mike
  • Terry K8EET
    Terry K8EET Member ✭✭
    edited November 2018
  • Ria
    Ria Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 2020
  • Ed, K6VMV
    Ed, K6VMV Member ✭✭
    edited November 2018
  • Bill-N6RV
    Bill-N6RV Member
    edited June 2020
  • Ria
    Ria Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    The only time 1500 watts may be needed on FT8 is 6 meter sporadic E. 
    I mostly operate that. I have pretty much worked all of the locals already so I'm looking for DX. And I do agree - without the QRO I wasn't able to get anyone to answer. Switched the amp on, and I was running them.
  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    I have worked 239 countries, earned 8 bands DXCC, 9 bands WAS, and 1229 points for DX Challenge Award, all with 100 Watts, and verticals, wires, and for the last 3 years, a T-11 Log at 38 ft. It has been a lot of fun!

    BUT, it is likely going to take a taller antenna and more power to get the next 101 countries, and the final contacts for DXCC on 160 & 6 Meters, and WAS on 6 Meters. Even using FT8.

    So an amp is in my future SOMETIME! Sometimes there is no substitute for brute force...
  • Bill-N6RV
    Bill-N6RV Member
    edited November 2018
    It is a little different from the West Coast. I have worked 82 countries on 6 meters. All but the last few with only 100 watts. It was two cycles ago on F2. Actually if the SFI cooperated last cycle I would have made DXCC with 100 watts... on CW. Two seasons ago I worked a handful of Europeans with 100 watts on 6m JT65 including the farthest contact, Czechoslovakia. Last season with QRO I was able to several Europeans including 5 Italians in one day. It was also the first time working China and Korea. Taiwan heard me and called me but we did not complete the contact.

    I have to interject that the SteppIR antennas are not as good as a dedicated yagi on 6 meters. It is no big deal to put up a 7 or 8 element yagi and they work much better than the SteppIRs.

    I have around 80 countries on 160. I have not put much effort there and I only ran 100 watts as well. If I had ran a KW maybe I would have finished DXCC on that band. I am sure from the East Coast there are easily 100 entities that are within the distance from Hawaii to the West Coast. I have listened on remote receivers in Virginia and I am amazed at how crowded 160 is on any given night. Furthermore it is not unusual for stations in  Florida and the Southeast to work nearly 100 countries in a single 6 meter Es season.

    My neighbor, N6CA, has worked over 130 countries over the last several cycles. You just have to be there.
  • Luis del MOlino
    Luis del MOlino Member ✭✭
    edited November 2018
  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
  • Jim  KJ7S
    Jim KJ7S Member ✭✭
    edited April 2019
    A Quick Congrats on your election win Ria!!  You Go Girl!  =>{)
    (assuming I have my info correct)
  • Bill-N6RV
    Bill-N6RV Member
    edited November 2018
    I agree. There are lots of stations who are loud but cannot hear. A pretty good antenna system can be installed for $7000. This is why every article on station improvement suggests putting up a good antenna before buying an amplifier. If that is not possible then at least understand that being louder is only half the issue.

    If possible do both! There are times when QRO is necessary.

    I have been told by many local hams that they do not have time for low power. They operate at the limit all the time. That is, in fact, against the law, which stipulates that we are to use the minimum power necessary to affect communication. That said, who knows what that is? Certainly if you are 30 dB over S9 then you could reduce power. However, if you are only 30 over when everyone else is 50 dB over S9.... It is a vicious cycle.
  • Mark_WS7M
    Mark_WS7M Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    I have run into the same thing...

    In a recent contest I really needed a particular station.  Granted in contest mode he may have been deafened by multiple transmitters but he was S9 to me but nothing would get through to him.  I do get this was a contest and perhaps not norm.

    I have however worked stations that were S9 to me that could not hear me from their home QTH, setup, ant etc.  I emailed one and he told me his noise level was S9.  So unless I could belt him with a > S9 signal nothing was gonna get through.  My question to him was why op at all if you can't hear anyone else.

    The high power thing.  Yes I have a local ham friend with an OM-4000.   Every time he is on he is pushing that amp to its max and we all know what that power level is.  He does this whether or not he needs to.  Just the way he wants to op.

    Me: I start with my amp on "Low".  My drive is adjusted to give me about 200 w.  If I can get through I keep the power there.  If not I go to "Mid" which gives me 600w.  Only for punching a DX or really bad conditions do I flip to "High" which is all the amp can do.

    The reason I don't run barefoot is not due to time but rather I'd like to use the finals in the amp instead of the rig.   There is more overhead in the amp to **** up potential issues.
  • Charles - K5UA
    Charles - K5UA Member ✭✭
    edited November 2018
  • KF4HR
    KF4HR Member ✭✭
    edited April 2020
  • KY6LA_Howard
    KY6LA_Howard Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
  • mikeatthebeach .
    mikeatthebeach . Member ✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Howard Number 3 is your Answer from W6WO Non-reciprocal paths via the ionosphere at HF During a discussion on Pedersen rays at a recent CAKE meeting it was claimed these were “asymmetrical” paths and an explanation was needed. We all know that much of our hobby depends on the ionosphere to return our transmitted signals back to earth and we may tend to think in terms of mirror-like reflections. Nothing could be further from the truth as the ionosphere is an unstable mix of charged particles and gases.It has both regular and irregular behavior. Although the ionosphere was key to commercial world-wide radio communication from around the 1930s the great deal of knowledge accumulated was practical rather than scientific. The science of the Ionospheric began sometime around the 1950s with the invention of atmospheric sounders. Scientific studies were intensified in the 1960s for security reasons when understanding propagation in high northern lattitudes became especially important. Hang on I will answer the question soon HI In 1967, NATO held a conference on Ionospheric communications with a focus of the Arctic and the conference proceedings has a section on HF entitled The difference in levels of signals travelling in opposite directions. The following three statements were selected from that section: 1. Paths between two antennas can be non-reciprocal but this is NOT due to differences in ray path attenuation or phase. On the basis of ray theory these are the same for signals travelling in either direction. 2. The reciprocity or non reciprocity arrises only because of interaction of the upward or downward waves with the antennas at the ends and the earths magnetic field. 3. A reciprocal path is formed between linearly polarized antennas (most amateur antennas) if they are both polarized in, or perpendicular to, the earths magnetic field otherwise the path can be non-reciprocal.
    The section reached the conclusion that “most ionospheric paths are non-reciprocal with the result that there can be large instantaneous differences in the levels of signals travelling in opposite directions.” To go beyond that statement and understand the mode and practical implications one needs to look into the phemomena of the ionosphere converting an incoming plane polarized wave into two outgoing circularly polarized waves known as O ordinary and X extraordinary. Ron W6WO See Reference Also https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GOVPUB-...
  • mikeatthebeach .
    mikeatthebeach . Member ✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Howard and others Download the NIST Book from the link above The HF Radio Ionosphere Sounders Studies Prove the paths for Gray line DX are asymmetrical On HF and not equal from both Directions especially On Multihop and Sporadic E propagation ! Free Book while it lasts (budget constraints) from the NIST Library Reference Link above !! Hams love free stuff !!! 73 Mike
  • Mark  K1LSB
    Mark K1LSB Member ✭✭
    edited November 2018
    "If you have only a dipole or a poor antenna, please do not use a linear amplifier because you won’t be able to hear the weak stations that answer you" -- Luis EA3OG

    So you're saying that everyone who only has a dipole shouldn't use an amp?

    Um, okay.......BWAHAHAHAHA!

    Sorry, I tried really hard to keep that from bursting out of me but I just couldn't do it.
  • John Kludt
    John Kludt Member ✭✭
    edited November 2019
  • KY6LA_Howard
    KY6LA_Howard Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2018

    Being on the pacific coast, the VP6D was almost a local station for me.. so I worked them FT8 with only about 25-100W.. usually got back to me on my first call...With the gain of my antenna I was likely around 1KW ERP,,,


    OTOH.. worked a few African Stations that could not hear me at all on FT8 until I boosted the power to the maximum.my linear could handle.


    Generally I look at the strength of the received signal before I decide how much power to use.. if they are -14 or stronger.. likely I can work them with 25W.  -20 or stronger.. usually 100W... If they are below -20.. then I tend to use every watt I can put up in the air.. albeit even then they cannot copy me..
  • Terry K8EET
    Terry K8EET Member ✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Another reason to love FT8.
  • Ria
    Ria Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    You can switch off an amp if you have it. You can't switch it on if you don't. 
  • Mark WS7M
    Mark WS7M Member ✭✭
    edited November 2018

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