S-Meter Accuracy of FLex and Others - Rob Sherwood

KY6LA_Howard

@Bill I always respect others OPINIONS But there is a big difference between OPINIONS and SCIENTIFIC FACTS. I do not respect deliberate promotion of ignorance of scientific acts.

KY6LA_Howard

Read my posts above. No insult intended just stating facts

Michael Coslo

Perhaps  third party can code up an inaccurate S meter app for SSDR? In fact, an adjustable meter, that will read any level the user insists is the right level. 

It really isn't realistic to expect a company to purposely implement a signal strength meter that is known as wrong. 

Burt Fisher

Gerald-K5SDR

Burt Fisher

Paul you said, "ham radio is merely a hobby" , I looked at Part 97  FCC regulations Basis and purpose, no where is the word hobby mentioned. What did I miss? In fact the ARRL rarely uses the word.
Michael, Professional field strength meters used by broadcast stations are calibrated  using a specific antenna and results can be compared. S-meters are not so how can any reading be, "wrong?"

Burt Fisher

When read an S7 on 80 meters with a dummy load on the antenna are you saying there is 12.6 microvolts coming in on the PL-259 jack? You are selling to amateurs who are used to transceivers, and receivers that read near S-0 when nothing is connected to the antenna input. Most of them are not as talented as those posting here nor seeking a scientific instrument.

Michael Coslo

I'm not certain what to say, Burt.

The levels that correspond to "S" are measured at the antenna input on the receiver, and not related to the antenna.

Your example is based on measuring  the strength of the transmitter, not the device you are measuring the transmitter with. Of course you want a specific antenna.

I offered a solution that would allow you to have a S-Meter reading that you want. Others can have a meter that reflects exactly what they want, in fact they could possibly even choose between 3 db per S-Unit and the standard 6 db per S-unit. 

Gerald-K5SDR

Geoff AB6BT

Bob - W7KWS -

Hello once again Burt! Again, your comparison of a broadcast quality field strength meter and a S-meter appears to be comparing apples to oranges. The two are used for somewhat different purposes. Your thoughts imply to me that you embrace the FCC rules (standards) describing the Amateur Radio Service and standards set for broadcast quality field strength meters. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_strength_meter If my understanding is correct, I suppose this comes from your career as a broadcast chief engineer. What is a mystery to me is why you accept some standards and not anothers. To me, your many posts only express "what YOU want" but have completely missed the mark in showing anyone of us why we should want it or why it's a good idea.

Burt Fisher

I will have to try that on my 6400M.
Note there is a  discussion on the Flex S-meter on a QRZ forum where the opinions are not the same as here. As a 6400M owner I would rather the 6000 series be in demand to enhance  my value. I bought it because it has the right amount of knobs and I don't need a  computer. I rarely use it with a computer. Also customer service. The S-meter is consistent with another receiver above S-7. I wonder what percentage of hams care about S-meter purity and Rob Sherwood. 

Michael Coslo

Of course the opinions are different on the QRZ forum. How many of those folks even own a Flex? The internet is full of Ford versus Chevy trolls, and if a person doesn't like Flex Radios, that accurate S-Meter on their rigs is a real deal breaker, and for a radio they'll ever own because they chose to like a different one. Make no mistake, if every S-Meter out there was accurate, but Flex had an inaccurate one, they'd still be deriding it

I want an accurate, reality based signal strength meter. The concept of arguing for an inaccurate one is pretty amusing. But entertaining, and no doubt.

Bill -VA3WTB

I hear a remark a lot here with the word purity. It is NOT about purity. Flex just simply pride them selves for making presission radios, not for purity but rather a business decission. But while using the techology that Flex uses in their radio, presission is a byproduct of such a platform. It would take a fare amount of effort and programing to build old technology type performance into the Flex radio.

As Gerald stated they are not inclined to dumb down the S meter to reflect older technology.

It seems that this discussion has run it's cource, and it is not up to me to decide that, but for me I have little more I can add. It has been interesting.

Burt Fisher

Michael yes many on QRZ forums are not Flex customers but does that invalidate their opinion? Isn't that where new customers are coming from? I have a KX3 whose S-meter reads zero on 80 meters, a good American company with great customer service like Flex. Are they doing it wrong? I have an anemometer it's measurements are interesting to me but my house is surrounded by trees thus not meeting a standard, just like hams that live in various environments invalidating the most carefully calibrated S-meter. My anemometer does not read 10MPH   in a calm to account for its protected situation. 

KY6LA_Howard

@Burt I have a Barometer at my house that reads 760Mm Hg. It’s just as ridiculous that it should read zero as the failure of the KX3 to follow accepted standards. Time we closed this ridiculous topic

Ted_Spiegel_NX6C

Bob - W7KWS -

If your description of the KX3 is accurate, it means the KX3 doesn't conform to good engineering practice. Either that or it's a defective radio in light of the K3 which is reported by Rob Sherwood, via Howard's post above, to follow the established S-meter standard.

How could it be good practice for Elecraft to embrace two different calibrations in the same product line? If they have, it doesn't say much for using either as an example for establishing a convincing argument.

HCampbell WB4IVF

KY6LA_Howard

WQ2H - Jim Poulette

Burt Fisher

WQ2H - Jim Poulette

Interesting - On a 50-ohm dummy load with a 1m LMR-195 (soldered connectors) - I get about S3 on most bands. That's with everything in the shack on (lights, laptops, monitors, amp, etc.).
73
Jim, WQ2H

Burt Fisher

AC9S

This may not be the proper place to bring a related issue up, but I believe there is an error in the S Meter code with very high signal levels.  On the latest release the S Meter goes to zero with levels above +60. Actually the entire bar becomes black.  In the past it would read slightly above +60 and indicator bar would be fully filled.  Perhaps the highest level could become a different color or a "+" added to the right side of the meter.  A disappearing S Meter seems to send the wrong message.


Keith - AC9S

Sergey R5AU

mlstutler

I just tested my 6400 using my Elecraft XG3 Signal Generator.   Results were shocking.   The Flex shows S9 when the generator is set to -73(S9) on all bands. 

Sergey R5AU

Mike, looks like you have trusted selective measurement / calibrated receiver , congrats !

KF3F

So, my backup radio is a Kenwood TS-850. Tuned to the same 20m frequency with the same filter bandwidth as the Flex 6600, the Flex shows S2 and the Kenwoood S0 with the antenna disconnected. Once the antenna is connected, the signal levels are the same. Same on the 40 band with compared signal strengths. In this case on 20m, I'm listening to VP6D and the signal is S3 on both radios. I don't listen to either of my radios with the antenna disconnected so it's a non-issue for me.

Burt Fisher

The issue for me is with the antenna connected and tuned off any signal on 80 meters I get an S7 and on my KX3 same setup I get an S2 thus I cannot measure on the Flex any signal below S6.