6600 vs FT5000 Receive audio

Sergey KN7K

Jay, AGC-T was setup per Manual and i did watched video on youtube.
How do you determine it was too high? Just by noise level? If yes-it is mean procedure is not good as I followed it precisely and many times.
Do you have another method?
On the last video DSP NR,WNB,TX EQ are off.
On the last few seconds of that video
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eq6hDovX52eQstgnQHrtlRXrdIgrwrPN
it is very obvious difference.
Sergey, KN7K

Bill -VA3WTB

Can you do a recording with the RX filters set as Ken suggested? it just sounds like the high voice freq are cut off

Sergey KN7K

I am trying, but propagation is really bad on 20m right now and signal is going up and down very fast. Standby...

Bill -VA3WTB

I would set to 300-2400 RX
what is the other radio set at?

Sergey KN7K

By the way, do you guys touch these settings or use Auto?
Thanks

Sergey KN7K

Here is the video with Ken's suggestions.
I will keep my thoughts for myself, what do you guys say?
https://drive.google.com/open?id=18wP37VYHL00wO9URp3ru82d3ntZir_qD
Thanks
Sergey, KN7K

Bill -VA3WTB

I can't view it

Bill -VA3WTB

It sounds good to me,, but i would roll the AGC-T back a bit more to cut down the hiss then turn the volume up a bit

Did your radio need the update to the heat sinks?

Sergey KN7K

no, my radio shipped in June, should be good.
Sergey, KN7K

Jay Nation

Sergey

The AGC-T setting I normally end up with is about 10% lower usually, but it's never a level I just set to a value and forget. With SSB I prefer AGC set medium as a starting point. I set my final threshold by ear, mostly, by adjusting both the AGC-T level, and the slice AF level trying to optimize it as I go. I tweak the setting with My FlexControl when using SmartSDR, or with the Slice AF/AGC-T knobs when using Maestro, although the FlexControl can be used with either.

The explanation below is not to be used to balance out the levels heard in a round table SSB ragchew,  for that you need to concentrate more on achieving a balanced
level. 

But this works well when when you want to hear the weak ones and not listen to the band noise.

I listen to the signal, if I hear any band noise in what I'm hearing I reduce the AGC-T level until I hear It start to drop out a little, then adjust the Slice AF level up until I hear the band noise about as loud as I started out with. Then I further reduce the AGC-T level until the band noise is almost entirely gone, and then raise the Slice AF until I hear it again. then repeat that until I hear no band noise at all and have the AGC-T level set as low as I can get it and still have loud Slice Audio. Then later as I'm working the signal and start hearing band noise I drop the AGC-T level 1-2%.

Just my opinion here, but I think the manuals correctly stated method for adjusting the AGC-T level, is just a starting point, that there's still further optimization available.  In my experience that will result in lower AGC-T levels and slightly higher AF Slice levels.

To summarize a little, reduce or eliminate the band noise by lowering the AGC-T level until you not hearing it. then when you reduce the Slice AF level to something comfortable to listen to, you should hear a lot less, or even no band noise.


My goal is to keep the AGC-T set just above the Noise floor, and when you can hear the band noise your down in the noise floor. so keep lowering it, until your not down in the noise floor.


After this optimization I play around with the RX EQ trying to smooth out the audio by removing any boominess or crunchiness I'm hearing in the transmitted audio.

As Ken has pointed out if your Receive passband is 200 Hz to 2900 Hz then you can set the 63, 125 , 4k, and  8k, EQ sliders to 0 dB, none of those frequencies are present in your Slice Audio, although the 4k slider will have an audible affect on the 2k to 2.9k portion of your slice audio. mostly a Tinny/Hissy effect though. so be stingy with the 4k slider. the others you can even try cutting to -10dB. So the only RX EQ sliders worth playing with will be 250,500,1k,2k, and once in a while 4k.

You will always be at the mercy of how the other guy has his transmit audio setup too, you can't really fix anything that's wrong with his audio much at all.
 

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Jay Nation

Sergey

Not to further continue a discussion about TNF filters. but I never saw you enable the TNF you placed in the passband. the enable button is at the lower edge of the SmartSDR window frame, just to the left of the CWX enable button.

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Jay Nation

I agree with Robert, something was set wrong on the Flex, it sounded pretty awful.

But without video, I can't see what it is. 

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Sergey KN7K

Jay,
I understand what are you doing, but I think you just reduce AGC to the level that is not working properly or not working at all.
I tried to adjust it your way.
It is OK on the weak signals and than when you hit loud station and you may get very uncomfortable high signal level, meaning your AGC is not working properly.
It seems like you use AF and AGC to reduce the noise and get comfortable audio level, but where is the Autoamatic Gain Control in such approach?
Sergey, KN7K

Bill -VA3WTB

Jay, I have been trying your way of setting the AGC-T and slice audio.
I am very surprised with the results.
I started with the slice audio at half scale and the AGC-T at just above the knee. As I slightly turned up the slice audio I lowered the AGC-T a little, I went back and forth and the AGC-T ended up almost at the bottom with no background noise. And I can still hear weak stations. It they are in the noise floor I can raise the AGC-T a bit to hear them.

But what is interesting is I can't get this setting any other way. For instance, I can't just set the slice audio at full and lower the AGC-T till the noise is gone,,at that point weak stations can not be heard,,BUT using the method we are talking about I can.

I don't understand what is going on under hood that makes this work. The AGC-T must be linked to the slice audio and effect each other, But not the main volume control at the top right corner.

This method works really well.

Jay Nation

Bill

The idea is, set the slice volume higher than you normally listen to it.by about 5%. Then lower the AGC-T percentage a few percent, if it reduces the noise. if it doesn't it's either already to low or very close to where it needs to be, you don't want the AGC-T level setting to be amplifying any of the noise floor, because it will do that. I use the AGC-T level as a way of setting how deep or how close to the noise floor I'm intending for the AGC audio boost to begin happening. IOW using it this way my goal is noise reduction, I'm trying to eliminate the noise in the slice audio. 

I don't use the AGC-T function to limit the loudness of the slice audio, for that I use one of the many Volume controls. If a loud signal is louder than I can stand then I turn down the Slice AF, till that signal is just a little louder than I'd like it to be. That will cause the weakest signal in the group to also be reduced, but I then try compensating for that by slightly raising the AGC-T level to add more of a boost to that signal. IOW if it's too loud lower the volume controls.

A better setting might be only a few percent away. but you have to try reducing or increasing the setting while listening to it. I don't sit and ride the AGC-T control all day, but I do end up tweaking AGC-T more than anything else. 

I find the NR helpful at times, but mostly I avoid it. The smearing effect gets worse the higher you set the NR level setting. if I set it higher than about 15% it distorts the audio too much. I use it when it helps me to copy a signal but leave it off 98% of the time.

SmartSDR is very adjustable, with or without knobs.

Good receive audio requires adjustment, As does Bad receive audio. It's up tp the Operator to operate the radio so that it sounds right to that operator. The more you operate the better you get at operating your way correctly. It will become second nature soon enough.

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Bill -VA3WTB

Ok so, I was doing it wrong?

Jay Nation

Bill

Nope, there is no "right" way, there are a lot of ways though. 
I tweak until I get the desired result, then try and remember how I got the desired result.

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Andy - KU7T

The main issue I see is that tweaking often is not really desired for many use cases (contesting). We really need a way to set and forget for a band/antenna configuration. Setting just to or below the knee is working for me. Not sure why you want to remove all noise....

73
Andy
KU7T

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

Hmm.  Interesting thread.  It would be nice to have the low band noise *AND* also nice to have normal
working AGC so that a "loud one" does not blast the headphones off of my head like Heavy Metal Rock
band.    BUT, that said, I would be SO VERY happy to use this method to eliminate band noise, that if I need
to put an external audio limiter in path with external speaker/headphone, I will do it.   Really.
So I will try this method tonight.   Jay, thanks for sharing the idea.

Flex needs to work on the noise reduction vs. AGC capability.   But I am loving the new radio so much,
that if I need to use external add-on's until Flex gets around to the software fixes, I will.

Cheers,

Neal

Jay Nation

Andy

I'm not trying to remove all of the noise, from the audio. I just don't see any point in boosting any of it in the AGC stage of the audio signal chain. There's always noise. If I was (contesting) I'd skip all of this, I'd just ignore the noise. And yes, the official recommended way to set the threshold is usually enough.

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Bill -VA3WTB

Don't misunderstand us,,the AGC works very well on the Flex,,you will not have a strong signal **** you away when listening to a weak one, if things are set properly.

And... it is not needed to re adjust the AGC-T unless conditions change on the band, so no need to continue moving it during a QSO

Jay Nation

Neal

SmartSDR's AGC-T, is not a normal AGC, it's better at boosting signals, and not as capable of leveling the differences between different received TX levels. so you do have to remember that shack audio levels are controlled with a volume knob. I've also been thinking hard about adding an external limiter in the audio chain. I'm just not convinced that's going to improve things. It's all software, and subject to change. this discussion might help encourage some of the changes. I'd prefer to keep the adjustability, and also like to have the option of an automatic setting, I really want both. I'll continue to work with whatever we get though.   

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W7NGA

Egad ... I am no genius but I do have a MSEE from Stanford and for goodness sakes, set AGC-T to 50% and listen to the **** demodulation. It shouldn’t take a Ph.d or Rosetta Stone to listen to the ham bands. And if it does .. something Is terribly wrong. W7NGA Florence, Italy (vacation)

roger na4rr

or just set the squelch at noise floor.  Oh I forgot no squelch

Bill -VA3WTB

Yes there is, in FRstacks

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

I'll help finish Bill's post above  (a mild pet-peeve about using some
random third party product name without providing a link :-)  )

FRStack is a SmartSDR third-party companion utility program.
FRStack displays a list of Active Slices, Most Recently Used (MRU) Frequencies, a list of Memories, a list of Favorite Memories, a list of Scan Banks, the Transmit Profiles, the MIC Profiles, the Global Profiles and the Radio Memory List, among other things.
You can find more about it here;
http://mkcmsoftware.com/Flex/Index

Don't **** me Bill :-)   Just trying to complete the circle for new people.

Cheers,

Neal

Bill -VA3WTB

it's ok,,there was a reason I did that...lol

Sergey KN7K

Jay or Bill,
Could you confirm AGC switching Slow-Med-Fast make any difference in per Manual calibration mode or per Jay's way.
What ever signal i listen, loud or weak signal, switching between Slow-Med-Fast does not make ANY difference. My AGC-T knee drops on 20m around 51, so I tried 50,47,45,40 and even lower several settings.
Please do not tell me that I do not know how to adjust AGC-T. Over last 3 days I've done dozen times
Or please let me know how I suppose to hear a difference. On Yaesu, I am going to loud station and on Fast i hear quick recovery, on slow- steady signals between words, so I know it works. On Flex i do not see any difference.
Sergey, KN7K

I opened ticket last night and in contact with Tim from Flex.
Will go over his suggestions later tonight.

Jay Nation

Sergey

The Fast, Med, and Slow settings don't really show up as easily heard audible signal differences all that much, the final speaker audio may not be affected in a dramatic way.
 
However you will see the effects when working digital modes like FT8. For FT8 you probably want Fast or Off selected, any nearby, overly strong FT8 signals heard in a RX interval can actually drive the weaker signals right out of the WSJT-X decoders and so cost you some of the weaker contacts possible. If that's the situation then the Off selection will probably solve that problem.

With SSB, Med, or Slow, can help to control any pumping effect of the noise in between the signals. The different setting can make a big difference when you're tryin to reduce the effects of lightning static crashes. 

Each setting does have a useful purpose. 

What your hearing and seeing doesn't sound like normal operation to me. 
See what Tim comes up with. 

The audio from your Flex in the video's you posted, was not normal Flexradio Audio.

You do sound like you've figured out the technique for setting the level, your just not getting the expected result.

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