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6600 vs FT5000 Receive audio

Sergey KN7KSergey KN7K Member ✭✭
Hello,
I would like to get some help with receive audio setup.
I used to yaesu audio and while I am not trying to match audio, I found audio on Yaesu is more readable, more intellegent and less smeared than 6600.
Some signal are pretty strong and I have a hard time to understand them on 6600.
I put few videos, and of course some propagation changes affect the results and not sure iphone catching all aspects of the audio.
Please let me know if it all in my head :)

Setup - Both radio as 2.1khz SSB, DNR on FT5000=4, NR on 6600=12.
IPO on FT5000 is IPO1, Preamp on 6600=8db (I tried with preamp OFF as well, similar results).
FT5000 used Station Monitor speakers, 6600 connected to powered Audioengine5+ stereo speakers. I also tried to swap them-smilar results.
Here are few recordings:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ffFEuFY01ajVk6eNskmutHk09oYxgrzn
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1i3PWrlYIkIusO_Jr0ftldb3-gOtuNw0m
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mO6aw6BczUQdUIYfBfR1gb_sy-LYDCcl

I think 3rd video is more pronounce the difference in readability, however iphone recoding masking most of the noise coming from 6600.

Thanks
Sergey, KN7K
«1

Answers

  • Rick  WN2CRick WN2C Member
    edited July 2018
    Sergey have you turned on the receive EQ? I would set the receive bandwidth to 2.8 or even 3.0 so as to get the fullness of the audio. Set the AGC-T before you set the NR. DO this by turning off the NR and then sliding (staring at about 60-70) down the AGC-T towards zero. When you hear the background noise chang this is known as the "knee", then turn on the NR at zero and bring it up slowly to a comfortable level of background noise. Doing this most of the hash you normally hear will be gone. The pre-amp you shouldn't need below 20 meters. I normally set mine on when on 40 to zero gain and if it is really noisy like when there is lightning to minus 8. Hope this helps.
  • Sergey KN7KSergey KN7K Member ✭✭
    edited March 1
    Rick,
    Thanks for reply and suggestions.
    I did AGC-t before and after NR with no significant difference in final audio,
    Increasing bandwidth from 2.1 to 2.8 or 3khz adding harsh noise and adding NR at this point degradate audio quality if pushed too much. If NR is ON and agjusyed a little (let’s say below 20, it does not reduce noise much).
    Sergey, Kn7k Edit: I choose preamp 8db to more or less much IPO1 setting of ft5000 preamp. I can do another video with preamp off on both radios.
  • Sergey R5AUSergey R5AU Sergey Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Sergey, I wanna to say in the 3rd video propagation was slightly variable during switching between radios, and on my side like Rick said already AF characteristics are different between radios. BTW you should get similar performance on 6600 without NR. P.S. I am owner of the 6700 but I think should be not so different in such kind of testings with 6600.
  • Sergey KN7KSergey KN7K Member ✭✭
    edited March 1
    Thanks Sergey, I do not hear that iPhone catching the difference that I hear. Yes, as I said earlier propagation is up and down, but overall yaesu produce more punch and easier understandable audio. I am not sure how to demonstrate it, I can record another video without preamps but it seems like 6600 need another dsp/equalized audio processing. I am thinking to get https://www.bhi-ltd.com/noise-cancelling/new-para-pro-range/parapro-eq20-dsp.html but was looking for some advice here to see if I miss any settings. Thanks Sergey, Kn7k
  • Johan / SE3XJohan / SE3X Member
    edited March 1
    Not sure you will be able to use the BHI? That unit is designed to be used with, I quote " Use with your own passive speakers " . Flex uses active speakers, so not sure if they are compatibel? I have used a BHI unit on a previous transceiver (TS-570 Kenwood) and it worked UFB. BHI makes great DSP eq. that's for sure.

  • Sergey KN7KSergey KN7K Member ✭✭
    edited March 1
    One more video with Preamp off on both radios.
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1v521wVjvfebEGS15nsU_7R2mm8QvfXth
    Bandwith the same 2.1khz.
    Also see TNF effect on 6600 and DNF on Yaesu.
    Well, i do not want to get to TNF discution I just wanted to demonstate both radios intelligence to get readable SSB signal, or it could be my uneducated Flex settings.
    Regards
    Sergey, KN7K
  • Jon, EA2OTJon, EA2OT Member
    edited March 1
    I would sugest to turn off the NR on the Flex, you will notice a big improvement. NR is not working very well in my opinion.
    Best regards,
    Jon, EA2OT
  • Sergey KN7KSergey KN7K Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    You can use BHi with headphone output to powered speakers or headphones. Sergey, Kn7k
  • Sergey KN7KSergey KN7K Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    I tried, too much band hiss/noise is present in this case. Also, it does not help much to get a signal close to yaesu quality. As I said it somehow smeared signal and not easy to understand unless it is very loud. Maybe I have to train my ears on Flex ;) Sergey, Kn7k
  • Rick  WN2CRick WN2C Member
    edited March 1
    Sergey, I could hear the filter on the 5000 but on the Flex you need to activate the filter. It will turn yellow when active.
  • Johan / SE3XJohan / SE3X Member
    edited July 2018
    Ok, then I have learnt something today again, Tnx and good luck Sergey

  • Sergey R5AUSergey R5AU Sergey Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Sergey, many of the posts are above demonstrate how the humans recognized different audio shading producing by different signal sources. For clear experiment purpose better to catch the signal from the linear stage of both receivers to similar end AF amplifier stage with similar type of the speakers + look into the signal over any Audio analyzing SW like Adobe Audition where we can see how both signal shaded with back noises or has different equalization forms. Harmonization of the different factors: AFC-T+ AF gain+ filters sharp+ AGC delay ( I suggest Flex radio required precise AGC delay adjustments)+ correct NR level( if needed) will give absolutely different results - from the extremely bad to the good applicable. With summ I wanna to say SDR enthusiasts can burn signal from the scratch with personal priorities . I did isuch experiments many time some time getting Wow
  • Sergey R5AUSergey R5AU Sergey Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Post above incompletely published (, add on here(as beginning after
  • Sergey R5AUSergey R5AU Sergey Member ✭✭
    edited March 1
    oups , from mobile device i can't completed my post (, full here, sorry guys for mistake

    Sergey, many of the posts are above demonstrate how the humans recognized different audio shading producing by different signal sources. For clear experiment purpose better to catch the signal from the linear stage of both receivers to similar end AF amplifier stage with similar type of the speakers + look into the signal over any Audio analyzing SW like Adobe Audition where we can see how both signal shaded with back noises or has different equalization forms. Harmonization of the different factors: AFC-T+ AF gain+ filters sharp+ AGC delay ( I suggest Flex radio required precise AGC delay adjustments)+ correct NR level( if needed) will give absolutely different results - from the extremely bad to the good applicable. With summ I wanna to say SDR enthusiasts can burn signal from the scratch with personal priorities . I did isuch experiments many time some time getting Wow
    As example : my priority is to have more AF gain and more wide range of the signal levels after AGC loop ( means I keep noise level then AGC-T adjusted like +10-12 dB over band noise condition)+ equalization with more gain level within 500-1500 hz ( for contesting purpose, ESSB is completely different matter) 
    all my filters are always with high sharp slopes ( brick wall ) 
    As result I got easy signal recognition over noise mask. 
    BTW important to know - enough senvivity is one of major factor for right DDC receiver performance - keep min +10db noise level up on you Pan in case antenna connected in compare RX input grounded. Just IMHO here but tested.
  • KF4HRKF4HR Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    While you have both rigs set to the same 2.1khz bandwidth setting, from what I could tell from the video it looks like you have your Flex RX EQ peaked at 1k and all other audio frequencies attenuated, some audio frequencies considerably attenuated.  Your Yaesu's audio pass band settings may be providing boost, or a consistent flat audio response, to the lower and higher audio frequencies.
  • Bill -VA3WTBBill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 1
    Everyone should know bye now that the noise mitigation in SSDR is not one of the best, yet WNB is wonderful.
    If you are wanting clear audio, turn OFF the NB. You should not need to it. Use the AGC-T to your advantage, it is a very powerful tool. If you play with it and find the sweet spot you will notice the harshness and hiss go away. Right now you have so many things set poorly not to mention poor RX EQ settings. Start with the EQ off as well.
  • Sergey KN7KSergey KN7K Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Hi Rick, What filter? I do not have any audio enhancements turned on on yaesu, all defaults. Unless I do not know what filter are we talking about? Please clarify. Thanks Sergey, Kn7k
  • Bill -VA3WTBBill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Sergey, it sounds like you have tried everything myself and others have mentioned to you and you still can't get good results. As you know the Flex is known for great RX audio. You may need to put in a help desk support to find out what is wrong.

    But you have not been clear if you have the RX EQ off and all DSP filters are off?


  • Sergey KN7KSergey KN7K Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Bill, what so many things you found I set poorly? AGC-t was adjusted, RX EQ set to boost human voice, NR set to min to mask a noise. Please share your settings. I also found (probably a personal preference) that some guys suggest to use NR and some not. Thanks Sergey, Kn7k
  • Bill -VA3WTBBill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Turn off EX EQ and use the AGC-T to control the noise, Turn off NR
  • DougDoug Member ✭✭
    edited March 1
    I have a complete FT5000D station maybe you & I could do some trading. I also have the DMU2000 unit all bought new from HRO by myself.
  • Sergey KN7KSergey KN7K Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Heu Doug,
    I do not need another FT5000, in fact In can sell you my FT5000MPDX with MTU's :)
    Well, after i figure out Flex.
    Sergey, KN7K
  • Sergey KN7KSergey KN7K Member ✭✭
    edited March 1
    Well, here is another video (no video, audio recorerded as iphone placed in front of Speaker).
    In that video:
    1. I use the same Speakers Audioengine A5+
    They have 2 inputs, so both radios connected in the same time
    2. On 6600 NR is OFF, RX EQ is OFF, WNB is OFF
    3. Both radios at 2.1khz SSB
    4. Both radios on slow AGS.
    6. 6600 AGC-t adjusted before making video.
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eq6hDovX52eQstgnQHrtlRXrdIgrwrPN

    Sergey, KN7K
  • Sergey KN7KSergey KN7K Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Sergey, I understand the point and agree completely.
    Remember, I do not post video to compare radios, I am trying to show that signal on Yaesu is easier to read, less noise and more punch.
    All I want is to get some help for the best settings on 6600 to get great audio without constant adjusments.

    I read a lot about AGC-T adjustments on the forum and while I think I understand the concept, I thinik AGC should be automated ( it is also discussed many times) and user should not mess with that.
    All I do on Yaesu is set it up for Fast for contest and Slow for every day use.
    There are many arguments here about it, but I think this is not experimantal analyzer that user should be messed with (talking about AGC).
    There are many users without techical background and Knee concept could be misleading for many.
    I asked in another post about that knee:
    1. how do you know if knee is wide or sharp?
    2. how do you know if you are on the top of the knee, in the middle, in the bottom or competely passed the knee? By dropping signal strenght when reducing AGC-T you can end somewhere and your only indication is a noise level (in this case you could be on the bottom of the knee and AGC will not work or will not work properly). And you may need constanlty readjust it in case of a week or strong signal.

    AGC-T discusion is relevant to this post by some degree but I do not  want this thread will go to another AGC adjustment thread. I am just looking for tips to make audio easy readable.
    Thanks
    Sergey, KN7K
  • Bill -VA3WTBBill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    I would open a help ticket as I said before,,you are not happy with the receiver performance, that tells me something is wrong. You Flex should be as good or better then the other radio. Your Flex is a direct sampling radio that should perform much higher then your other radio.

    You are really over thinking the AGC-t. It really is not as hard to set as you think.
    The AGC-t is a remarkable tool.

    Set the AGC-t so you can begin to hear the noise go down, then you can still move it a little more to reduce more noise if you need. That's it,,not complicated.
  • Sergey KN7KSergey KN7K Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Thanks Bill, I may open the ticket.
    Did you hear a difference in last recorded file or it is just me "not happy :)"?
    It is not that I am not happy, I just used Yaesu for many years starting with 1000,1000MP,1000MV, 5000MPDX and I always liked the audio quality.
    It could be my ears just used to a Yaesu signature.
    In the other hand I am really strugling is to understand the weak SSB signal, while on Yaesu is easier to listen.
    Sergey, KN7K
  • Ken - NM9PKen - NM9P Member ✭✭
    edited June 23
    Sergey, I didn't see anyone else giving these exact points, but you might try this.

    With the Flex 2.1 KHz filoter, the audio range is from 100-2200 Hz.  This is indeed pretty narrow, especially if your filter skirts are set to "Sharp."  I don't know if the Yaesu filters are set to the same sharpness and Hi & Lo Cut frequencies.

    I would recommend manually moving the Hi & Low Cut up to 200-2300,  250-2350, or 300-2400 Hz.  Either of those three combinations will still give you a 2.1 KHz filter, but shifted a little up in frequency, which will help your intelligibility.  

    I also recommend you might try using MED for AGC instead of SLOW.  The Flex Slow is a bit long for rapidly fluctuating signals.

    Before you turn any NR on, I would recommend adjusting the AGC-T until you get just a little noise reduction - the top end of the knee.  THEN turn the NR on.  I would recommend using no more than 10-15 on the NR setting at first.

    Then if you need some additional clarity, insert the RX EQ and have all levels at 0 except for about 3 notches  boost at 500, 1K & 2K.  (adjust as your preference requires - I tend to use 4, 3 & 5 for those slides in extreme cases, but my old ears sometimes need a little extra help on the "super-Bass" stations)   

    If you wish, you can also drop the 63, 125, & 8K sliders all the way to the bottom.

    See if this helps.  

    Ken - NM9P
  • Ken - NM9PKen - NM9P Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    BTW.  Since the Flex filter is sharper than most other rigs, you may find that your actual filtering results are similar if you use the Flex filter at 2.4 KHz as you get with other rigs at 2.1 KHz.  That has been my experience comparing to my old Kenwood TS-850SAT.

    Ken - NM9P
  • Robert LonnRobert Lonn Member ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    OK, so I am just now watching this post!!!!  I have several radios to compare my Flex 6600M radio to, in the Yaesu world it is a FT-1000MP Mark V radio,, Yaesu FT-991, Icom IC-9100, Drake R8B, JRC NRD-545 radio..  Listening to your recording, YES, the Flex does not sound correct?? Something is definitely not correct with the settings, or something is wrong with the radio... My 6600M beats all the above mentioned radios with Audio Quality.. 

    One thing I would try is do a Full Factory Reset, and return all settings to DEFAULT to see how it sounds!!  

    Robert
  • Jay NationJay Nation Member
    edited July 2018
    What I saw was the AGC-T was set a little too high. What I heard, was that the DSP NR, was on and set too high.

    The AGC-T speed and level setting, will have a large effect on what the DSP NR sounds like, and also on the correct DSP NR level setting.

    Also many of us, overuse the RX EQ, trying to fix audio issues that are better fixed, by tweaking the passband filter, AGC-T (speed, and level), and just enough DSP NR to achieve the sound we want to listen to. Don't forget the Slice Volume it can be lowered if you hear to much static, or raised to make the speech louder and easier to hear.

    It all matters. And it's all adjustable.

        #FlexRadio IRC chat

    For real-time discussions

            SDRgadgets

    User created documentation.
               Volunteer!!

             73, Jay - NO5J

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