error fpga fan speed

Kevin

Seems like more than one fan issue.

Delbert McCord

I would be in for a few I would take up to 8. or even more if I have to. I am sure if they are the correct fan having a few of them around could help others when they have the problem.

Scott N8UMW

I'd go for two for sure.

Manuel - W4SSB

2 for me

Lewis Cheek

I'm in for 3 myself on a bulk purchase.

Lew - N4CO

K2CB Eric Dobrowansky

If there is enough interest, I'd be willing to buy a large enough quantity and split it up for a small markup for the trouble.

K2CB Eric Dobrowansky

Better yet, any interest in a packaged kit with all four fans for the 6000 series radios?

Gastonet

I'm in!

Gene - K3GC

Like many of you I would like to have one or two fans in reserve. If one of the fans on my 6500 died today I would be looking at 4+ weeks, round trip shipping and a hefty charge from FRS
A few things to consider:
1.  Probably over $300 dollars for 20 fans shipped.  Since this would be a special order from Mouser there would probably be no return.
2.  According to Mouser this would be a compatible fan but for our purposes it would have to be an exact match.  I would not be in a financial position to take this risk.

The front fans are completely different - 80mm.  They would be very easy to replace and they would not cause the radio to shut down if there was a failure.

I will try and contact Mouser today and see if a data sheet is available on the replacement fan.

It would be great if FRS would be willing to sell this fan - perhaps if enough of us bug them.

KC2QMA_John

I bet if FRS took a little time with some clever CNC machining of aluminum or copper a one piece chunk of heatsink could be made to fit over both chips inside the cage that would have more than enough mass to dissipate the heat from both chips. Then we would never have to worry about those fans or the dust they accumulate.
They could sell as a retrofit kit.
Well I guess it's just a dream....

Anyway look forward  to getting my 6600M!

Bill -VA3WTB

The radio will not boot without the case fans running.

G8ZPX

Who controls the firmware startup sequence? FRS software. Amazing how quiet they can be when they want to be.

KC2QMA_John

As part of the "Retrofit" flex would modify the firmware in the radio to accommodate the heat sink. And if the temperature sensors are not in the chips themselves they would have to just relocate an external sensor to the heatsink.

This is very doable and is what they have done with the new radios.

Scott N8UMW

If they fix this problem, they won't sell as many new radios.

Gene - K3GC

I just tested my 6500 with both case fans (those at the front of the case) and the radio booted quite nicely with both fans unplugged.
The CPU fans on the bottom of the case will nor boot unless they are running

Rich McCabe

I think the rigs got larger because they had to accommodate the Maestro front panel. They used common components between the M and non M radios so they are all the same size.  Larger fans are quieter too.

Delbert McCord

It is sad, this is a simple question but Flex choose not to reply to it.

Delbert McCord

Scott did you read that I have the newer one ordered. I can trade in my 6300 on it today but then I do not have a rig to use for months. Flex is never on-time for their releases so if they say its going to be a couple of months it will be 6 haha. 

If you want after I get it you are welcome to take it apart and look it over. 

KC2QMA_John

Just a guess but maybe FRS legal advisers told them not to respond because of possible law suits relating to the issue?

It would **** if a simple fan renders these radio not repairable because of a $12 part!

Scott N8UMW

I'd definitely like to see that.

Scott N8UMW

Probably right about that Del. I'd like to upgrade, but I will wait a while after they are out to see what crops up with them. I'm just disappointed at this problem. After cleaning mine of what little dust there was, I tried booting it a dozen times before it fired up and haven't shut if off since. They told me they replaced all three fans when I had it in. They did fix the power output issue, which I had since I bought it. The antenna tuner works well. Noise blanker still sucks, even with the version 2 software. I guess I won't even consider the new one until I get to see yours.

Bill -VA3WTB

Scott, What has been the end result after talking to Flex, were do things stand at the moment as far as any problems you have..

Scott N8UMW

They handled it well the first time around. I may have to do it in again before the warranty runs out for the fan issue again. But after that, it's a hard pill to swallow if I have to send it in for a couple hundred bucks each time after that.

Steve-N5AC

The engineers at FlexRadio read the community, but we're busy and don't read all the posts.  Tim does read most everything here and if he feels like we need to weigh in on a topic, he shoots us an email and asks us to do so.  Such is the case with this thread.

First, I suspect that denying that we're the kind of company that would do something to increase service revenue probably wouldn't dissuade those that think this is the case.  It is, of course, not the case.  We are all "craftsman" that design radios and any failure reflects on our design and disappoints us.  We want the customer to get any problems fixed quickly and inexpensively.  This is true of most engineers regardless of any management directives to the contrary (which also don't exist at FlexRadio).  There are numerous cases that can be found that demonstrate this (including the recent high profile diesel emissions problems).  Engineers are generally more likely to be incompetent or accidentally make a bad choice than they are to actively "cheat" a customer in my experience.  FlexRadio's management team is also honorable and would not ask customers to pay for a problem just to charge a customer.  We have a demonstrated history of fixing problems that most would consider to be our responsibility at our own expense (FLEX-3000 preamp, FLEX-6700 performance enhancement [PEN], etc).

We discussed the fan failures that have occurred and our preference, generally, would be to give a customer a part number and suggest they fix the problem if it is easy.  Internally, we have been fixing the issue by replacing the integrated fan and heat sink assembly.  Removing the heat sink from either the CPU or the FPGA is not a job for the faint of heart.  The adhesive is strong and is designed to firmly hold the heat sink to the chip.  Each of the chips are connected to the PCB by either 464 or 1031 solder balls, depending on the part.  If you were to break any one of these loose, you could have a failure or intermittent radio.  Sometimes customers that cause issues like this do not feel obligated to tell a company what caused the problem (I'm not accusing anyone in particular -- just saying I've seen it happen as a radio repair tech).  This results in hours of bench time trying to find the problem and then customers sometimes suggest that we should pay for the time it took to find and repair the problem.

I'm sure it seems odd, but it never occurred to me (or anyone else at FlexRadio that I know of) to remove the fan from one heatsink/fan assembly and **** it into the already attached heatsink.  We buy them as an integrated unit.  But, having seen this here, this is a simple enough fix that I think most of our customers could do this.  Opening the cage, who's sole purpose is to prevent radiated emissions from the processors, memory and power supplies from reaching the radio, is not too hard -- but putting it back together correctly is much more difficult.  If the cage isn't closed properly, RF from the cage will end up in the receiver.  Many of the developers at our office run the radios with the cage open because we need to take measurements, etc. and we see first hand the effects of this and you do not want to run your radio without the cage.  *I* do not close the cage myself, but instead have the service team do it and I'm very comfortable doing SMD rework, etc.

So the official FlexRadio position will remain that we consider opening the cage to be a "non-customer serviceable item" because of the difficulty opening/closing the cage.  If you open the cage, it will void the warranty.  If you are out of warranty and want to replace the fan and you feel comfortable spending the time learning how to close the cage effectively, I think it is something that many people could do -- but it's not terribly easy.  If you get stuck and call service, I would expect our service team to charge you to teach you how to get the cage closed or deal with any issues you have.  I don't feel that this is in any way unreasonable.  It's really no different than fixing your car: if you buy a Chilton manual and it looks like you can accomplish the repair yourself, great.  You buy the tools and the parts and perform the repair.  If you get into trouble, you have to get your car to the dealer or local repair shop and pay him to help you get out of trouble.

Please note that the fan must have a tachometer.  The fan we use is also available without a tachometer and if you purchase the incorrect one, it will install fine, but the radio will not enable the power to the chips because the fan is apparently not spinning.

Not to frighten you, but I have a funny story along these lines.  The first vehicle I bought myself was a Honda XL-350R motorcycle in 1986.  I wanted to perform all the repair and maintenance work myself.  The first thing I did on my new bike was to change the oil.  I bought a service manual that said I really needed a torque wrench to properly tighten the bolts on the bike.  I went to Sears and bought a torque wrench, an expense I didn't want.  I changed the filter and went to tighten the three bolts that attached the oil filter cover to the block of the engine.  I looked up the torque which was expressed in Nm.  I tightened the first bolt and couldn't get it to the required torque so I continued to twist the wrench.  Of course, it has a long handle and a lot of mechanical advantage.  Suddenly, it got easier and before I knew it I was holding the bolt head in my hand and the shaft was sheared off inside the engine.  You can imagine how I felt.  I called the Honda dealer who was puzzled.  He asked what value I was torquing to.  I replied with the value and he said "Where did you get that?"  I said "Right from the service manual on page <whatever>.  It says torque 8mm bolts to 18Nm." (values are no longer accurate as my memory has faded).  He said "it's a 4mm bolt tough."  I said "No, the socket says 8mm."  He laughed and said that the bolt size is the size of the shaft -- not the head.  You can see how I made the mistake and you can also see how it's a **** newbie mistake.  The dealer offered to fix it for me by drilling out the bolt, but said "I can't guarantee that it will not destroy the bike -- the engine is magnesium and if it catches on fire while I'm drilling it will just burn to the ground."  It all ended well and the drilling was successful with even more money out of my pocket. 

My point in telling this story is that the service department at Honda could not have predicted the **** mistake I would make.  And I did not expect them to pay for my **** mistake when I made it.  My advice to those that want to make this repair themselves is just like it would be for someone repairing a car, etc: feel free to do it if you feel qualified.  If you mess it up, it could be expensive to get out of trouble.  I know this sounds a little like I'm trying to scare you off of doing the repair yourself which is not the case.  I just want you to understand that you're dealing with an area of the radio that could be expensive to repair if you make a serious mistake.

Manuel - W4SSB

Thanks Steve. For those of us that feel comfortable changing the fan can you please provide us with a part number as the current fan has been discontinued.

Delbert McCord

This is a relief to read, I was very uncomfortable with the silence from Flex on this issue. 

Still did not get the part numbers that are available and compatible and recommended for the Flex fan replacements. Will Flex sell them to us or do we buy them from other sources? 

I would be willing to pay for a little video of showing the correct way of doing this repair and re assembling the rig correctly. 

I want to say thank you for the engineer taking the time to put this reply together for us. I myself was getting so paranoid that I only would turn the rig on for nets and when I was going to activity operate, I stopped monitoring just in the background and I really enjoy list listening when I am doing my paperwork in my office / shack. If the parts are available then I will be able to relax and just enjoy the rig again. I will not ever leave it on 24/7 again, I just do not need to, why risk it?

KC2QMA_John

First I would like to say my comments may have been a bit harsh and would like to apologize if I was out of line, I may have just got caught up in the heat of the moment. But like many other flex owners this is due to the lack of response which if left UN-answered can lead to all kinds of speculation and conjecture. We would just like more transparency and more more timely responses to these types of issues after all what is the point of having a User Group Site if we are just on our own, we can use yahoo groups for that.

Now you cant please everyone but in this case please understand that your customers have invested a lot of money in your company and have even given you money (deposits) for products that are not even available and good communication is the minimum we ask.

Clearly looking at this thread there is a problem with these chip coolers, weather it is the fault of the fan manufacture of the fans or a mistake in the design by relying too much on these fans to allow the radio to operate there is a problem, technology is not perfect and neither are humans.

It seems to be that you realized that this was a flaw and that's why in the new radios the chips are cooled passively.

So for those people that want to DIY repair on their own simply Sell the replacement fan OR Give the part number for the fan and add a disclaimer letting the user know that they do this repair at their own risk and any damage to the radio as a result may make the radio not repairable or very expensive to do so, witch it looks like you kind of said in your last reply.

The other option is one I have suggested “If FRS took a little time with some clever CNC machining of aluminum or copper a one piece chunk of Heatsink could be made to fit over both chips inside the cage that would have more than enough mass to dissipate the heat from both chips without fans. Then we would never have to worry about those fans or the dust they accumulate.”

Yes I understand the Tach issue but that can be handled in the radios firmware and the temp sensor can be dealt with as well. This would be a “Factory Upgrade Only” that can NOT be done by the end user.

You would charge for this service and I'm sure everyone would be more than happy to pay for it knowing that this eliminates a problem and makes the radio even better than it was to begin with.

Consider this a hardware upgrade sort of like what Elecraft has done with it’s optional Heatsink Upgrade for the KX3 see here :http://www.elecraft.com/manual/E740254%20KX3HSMDKT%20Heat%20Sink%20Installation%20rev%20A.pdf

Let me end by saying this I love my Flex and wouldn't want any other radio in my shack and that's why I have a 6600M on order. Again I apologize for some of my miss placed comments with that said FlexRadio is In my opinion the best radio available today hands down!

K2CB Eric Dobrowansky

I have been conversing directly with the manufacturer (Adda). If I buy a large enough quantity, I can offer them for around $14 each. This is for the exact replacement APO-0512HX-J96 Hypro bearing version. Supposedly an improvement over the HB ball bearing version, and can be used for both CPU fans. BTW, can someone provide me with the exact part number and/or a picture of the two case fans? If you have interest, let me know how many you would want, so I can get an idea as how many to order. The more I order the better the pricing may be. If there is sufficient interest, I can put together a four fan package deal. Eric K2CB k2cb@comcast.net

Delbert McCord

Scott if I was you I would contact them now tell them the problem and get it sent in. I have that Icom 7100 You can barrow. Its a spare rig so I do not want to sell it but that way you would not be off the air while the Flex is gone.

Scott N8UMW

I think I can speak for most when I say we thank you for giving us some answers. Having dealt with similar setups in computers and other electronics, I have worked with heatsink adhesives and rf cages before. Those who haven't should consider sending in their radios for repair for the exact reasons you mentioned. If mine dies again soon, I'll send it back in while I still have warranty left. It would be the second time for fan issues. You certainly confirmed most of my thoughts on this, so again, thank you for the information.