error fpga fan speed

Bill -VA3WTB

here is the info that the Flex clearly don't wont us to know about

Why do you think Flex is hiding this information from us? what reason?

KC2QMA_John

I would guess because this repair is very profitable for FRS. Over $150 for a $5 fan is a HUGE profit for such a simple repair that takes about 10 mins time.

@ Bill, You must be an employee of FRS, beta tester or they are giving you free product or something because for some strange reason anytime anyone criticizes Flex you feel the need to come to FRS defense...Why?

Ask yourself this question BILL why after a month since this has been posted has FRS not shared this basic info with us????

It’s a **** Fan not the Nuclear launch codes!

Bill -VA3WTB

First, Tim has answered about this already. The recommend people not doing this on their own. Out of warranty I may give it a try.

Second, I do not work for Flex, or have free radios from them. As I stated before, It would be very expensive for me to send my radio in for a fan replacement, around $450.00 shipping. this I am not so happy about either, and I would also be interested in replacing the fans here myself. But I would never go as far to say that Flex is keeping this info under wraps in order to shaft its customers. Knowing Gerald and the team,,I find that offensive and not in keeping with their
company policy.

Third, I think it is good thing to criticizes Flex when it could be helpful, there is the right way and a wrong way,,using the right words calling attention to something overlooked. but when someone suggest Flex is shafting, ripping off, customers in order to gain profits is were I take issue.

G8ZPX

Moreover

1) Along with lots of questions on this thread, there have been previous threads on the same subject. Many people asking for info, for low cost and expedient methods of getting a simple fan fixed (we are not all appliance ops), asking why in fact they are failing so early.

2) Has there been a general product recall due to defective PEF faults, no.

3) Has Flex acknowledge or accepted there is in fact an inherent designed-in problem with these fans that needs addressing, no.

4) Almost every reported failure comes under the category of PEF "premature equipment failure" - that means failing long before it should have reasonably done so.

5) Even for a cheap 50,000hr sleeve fan we should be expecting 5.7 years of 24/7 use (or 10 years+ of casual intermittent use), which to be frank is still way short of the quality it should have been in this kind of application. A good quality bearing fan would only cost $2-3 more and offer a life expectancy of 250k+ hours (28 years).

6) Other than basic 2yr warranty, has Flex helped with free-issue fans, how-to information to non-warranty customers with problems, no.

7) To date no 6000 radio has done more than 4 years yet they are still failing in every day use.

Flex have been almost totally silent on the subject, where they are normally very active on this forum.

k0eoo

@G7BCX, I run my 6500 10 hrs a day 365/yr, which is 13 years @ 50,000hr life...  It's been running 4 years now with no issues....  

As a developer of industrial test equipment for 40 years this seems reasonable to me.

k3Tim

First - thanks for the images and links - very interesting. The fan does look a bit grungy with dust however.

The suggested replacement fans from Mouser are about $50 and by the time you add shipping etc, easily $60. A repair bill of $150 is not unreasonable given they likely burn the unit in for a couple hours as a test and tech time at $100 / hr. The totals starts to add up fast. Perhaps one can change on their own but should the SMD chip be accidentally pulled off the board - bye bye motherboard, a complete replacement would be required.  One can take the chance changing the fan or let Flex fix it. Basically a $100 gamble + shipping.

Is blowing out the dust really the best method as it may force dust into the bearings. Using a strong vacuum and brush to would seem a better method.

The JTAG connector is very interesting. 

edit - had Flex wanted to hid this '**** of gold' they would have removed the fan info so as to make replacement easier. Reminds me of the old 'minicomputer' days where certain mfgs. used 'house numbered' TTL ICs so as to make repair by 3rd party vendor impossible.

Tim

G8ZPX

K0eoo you radio even if 4 years old has only done 14,600 hrs but none of this explains why people are seeing equipment failure after less than 18 months, and then again a few months later. Msybe you got a good fan.

k0eoo

I hear you, all that being said, I should get in and clean mine to keep them running....

Scott N8UMW

I wouldn't bet on that. The third wire tacometer feature is probably proprietary. If you can't get a fan with that feature set up the same way, you have to send it to flex. Then eventually they will run out of them and we'll be sitting on junk radios that won't boot up. Hard to believe this fan is already an obsolete product. Definitely will have an impact on future purchases.

Michael Aust

Most CPU fans are three wire types on motherboards, very common 

Delbert McCord

This is what I think and I am no expert, just a average ham (not in the electronics field at all).

I have no more information than anyone else does, this is just what I think.

I think Flex got unlucky and designed it with a bad part and relied on the fans air flow to much trying to make the rig smaller. I think this is why the new rig is larger (I thought electronics got smaller and smaller). Now I think there are some more filters in the newer rigs so I could be wrong. 

I am more worried about Flex running out of parts than the money to repair it. This is why I have placed my order for a 6400 to replace the 6300 I  use at home and if I like it I will do the same with the other 6300 later on I have at my cabin. I think the 6300 is a marvel at what it does and how well it works, one **** up in a rig is ok I guess its just this **** up can make the rig useless in short order. I have been a ham for many years, there has been mods for other HF rigs to correct manufactures little problems. Case in Point the mod for the driver transistor for the Icom 746 Pro. I had to have that done but after the mod I never had any problems with it ever again. Its just this problem just will not go away. Hopefully someone comes up with a way to modify the 6300 with a better fan that will fit and also satisfy the third wire for the rpm sensor. 

Lots of smart people in ham radio, hopefully someone will figure it out or hopefully Flex is working on it. 

Terry K7NY

APO512HB-J96 (S)-4P-TA-LF Is this the part number of the fan in the 6500?
Thanks
Terry

John - K3MA

I agree Flex should not be silent on the details just because they do not recommend that the user do the repair themselves.  If a radio is out of warranty then if would seem that a recommendation along with a review of the potential risks followed by providing the information to the owner would be more inline with the type of customer care and support Flex is known to provide.

k3Tim

Flex is likely reading this thread (subliminal message to Flex - send Tim a new 6600M) but won't mention a "how to" in case some ham-**** ham breaks their 6x00 in a big way trying, even with disclaimers for the DIY.

For instructions on changing, a search of "changing GPU fan" turns up a lot of information that should be relevant.

Steve K9ZW

Wouldn't it seem that if you are competent to change this part on your own that you would not need to go to a forum for instructions & parts numbers?

Would typically mean you are also competent to fix your mistakes and blunders along the way too.

BTW the math on projecting expected lifespan people are making seems to exclude the actual operating temperatures in the radio. 

I've not been able to find a temperature rated Life Expectancy chart other than at ambient temperature (25c/77F) nor any MTBF projections. 

Using rule of thumb calculations some of the fan manufacturers provide the actual service life projections at elevated temperatures can be much less, and could be reduced further in certain instances where a fan is temperature cycled or stored at ambient for extended periods.

These are limitations of the Hypro-Bearing mostly.

73

Steve K9ZW

Terry K7NY

The reason I asked about the part number is because I found the APO512HB-J96 (S)-4P-TA-LF on line. If someone else has the part number then I don't have to open the 6500 until I need to clean it again.
Terry

KC2QMA_John

If you put the Temperature coefficient aside for a moment, Mean Time Before Failure (MTBF) ratings are always measured at full rated voltage/RPM’s in this case 12VDC, Some users are operating these radios at 14VDC so that will shorten the life expectancy exponentially, now keep in mind that the fans in the radio 65/6700 are running at reduced voltage/RPM’s, so the fans should last even longer or have a longer MTBF. These fans are PWM and will change speed based in the input from the chip temperature sensor on the board and typically will run at lower RPM’s under normal conditions. Now if you operate outdoors in direct sunlight or in a very hot room that's something else and will have an effect on the MTBF rating.

I wonder if it would be possible to have a large custom heatsink made that will allow for passive or fan-less operation for the the small chips to replace the 2 small 50mm fans. I know the radio will still need the large fans  to cool the P.A. and the rest of the radio.

Scott N8UMW

If the radio is looking for a tach signal to boot up and stay on, you'd have to trick it to think it has it. And should the chip overheat, the radio may not shut down and cause damage. Unless it has temp sensing already. Would be bad to not have it.

dl9eri/oe9eri

KC2QMA_John

YES, However the tach signal response can be modified in the radios firmware. Now the question is, Is the temp sensor in the chip itself or on the board?

KC2QMA_John

 Could you take a picture of the chips with the fan & heatsink removed?

Scott N8UMW

Maybe dl9eri can. I'm still under warranty. I won't get in there till it's out and that will be in November.

dl9eri/oe9eri

Yes, do not repair yourself if you have guarantee ! Flex will repair it !

But my 6500 is more than 3 years - and as you see in the picture I change only the FAN and let the cooler in place.

73 good luck

KC2QMA_John

I think with some clever CNC machining of aluminum or copper a one piece chunk of heatsink could be made to fit over both chips inside the cage that would have more than enough mass to dissipate the heat from both chips. Then we would never have to worry about those fans or the dust they accumulate.

Scott N8UMW

I'm definitely of the belief that flex knows this is enough of a problem that they decided to go passive cooling on the new radios. Otherwise, why switch?

Gene - K3GC

Does anyone have a source for the fan?  Mouser shows it as obsolete.  I spoke with their support and I was told that they do not stock a comparable fan but that it is available through ADDA.  the hitch is that there is a minimum order of 20 at a little over $13 each.
If they can be found at ~ $13 I would buy a couple just to have on hand.  Moving parts will die - it is just a question of when.

Matt (K0KB)

I'm in for a few.

Ross - K9COX

I can't decide if all this talk blows or sucks

Bill -VA3WTB

Lol Ross, this is were we comment if we have problems as well as happy times with our radio's

I keep reminding myself that when reading someone venting or simply asking about a problem they have, they do not represent most of the customers. Such as the fan issue, there are some with problems,,but by far most have not had problems.
But it does bring up a good point. What happens if those fans can't be found anywhere soon, then what?

I know Flex will support these radios as long as parts are there, but?

Michael Aust

I'm in for Four  Fans ( WB6DJI )