Lockup issue and V2.0 / V1.11

Bill -VA3WTB

What does your panadapter do when it crashes?

Ria

There's really no networking knowledge needed for 2.0. Just enable UPnP and it will work automatically. If you don't like UPnP for security or other reasons, the manual port forward is pretty straight forward.

Ria

Andy M5ZAP

Hi Gerald,

Thanks for reply, fact correction accepted.

Now my turn

Fact correction - Throughout this problem flex have stated that the lockup issue has never been experienced by any of you testers, however Ria has confirmed on 1.10 she experienced lockups dropping in frequency to weekly lockups and even more worryingly that these have reduced but are still present in V2.0 software

Does this not put into doubt your newly adopted policy of hoping that V2.0 will fix the problem. Your only software tester experiencing problems on V1.10 still experiences lockups on V2.0 ? I would call that 100% problem carryover.

Could you not exchange out Ria's hardware to see if it is hardware related and give you some hardware known to exhibit the issue to test in your Lab? It could be unrelated to hardware but at least exchanging the hardware would prove or disprove that hypothesis.

Like Ria I have experienced varying levels of lockup, Initially every day then a period with no lockups now weekly with sporadic periods of 3 or 4 in close proximity.

Paul M

Most of the time there is a message that SSDR has lost communications with the radio (actually never wrote down the exact message) but once or twice SSDR froze with the radio also in transmit.  Signals were displayed (Frozen state) and SSDR had to be terminated with the Task Manager.  Power out was ~2W using WSJT-X on 30M.  Antenna a SteppIR vertical about 60 feet from the house.  

Michael Aust

Been running 1.9.13 no  issues, but get that to crash ( completely freeze ) on my Windows 10 notebook Acer ( No Ethernet Port ) only has USB port, if I share an USB to Ethernet Port Adapter to connect to Flex6700 with a USB hub that has other USB devices attached.

When I just have a USB to Ethernet Adapter all is well, but when I add a mouse,
Flex Knob and sit back and wait, after some time, SSDR will freeze up ! just with 1 pan-adapter/waterfall open.

For what that is worth, then again if I have 8 pan-adapters/waterfalls going on and need to with V1.11after a while I get the lockup as others have described.

Rick W7YP

Since many people, myself included, didn't experience this problem until after upgrading to 1.10 AND the crashes ceased after back-rev'ing to 1.09, it is most certainly a firmware bug and not a problem in the radio's hardware (e.g. a 'bad' FPGA).  I've seen such version level related problems many times before in my 30+ years in embedded systems development.  We often found the problem by just doing a 'smart' code-base comparison, focusing on the areas that changed which might account for the behavioral difference.  This can be a lengthy and boring process, however.  Would someone from FRS confirm whether or not this has been done?

Rick W7YP

Howard, in addition to providing band information to my SPE 1.3K-FA, the USB interface allows my SPE amp to set the 6700's RF drive level to the safe low level (less than 10W)required by such a high gain amplifier.  It does this automatically whenever I put the amp in operating mode.  When I kick it to standby, the RF Power level is restored to its prior setting.

I also have a DEMI 2m LDPA connected to the other USB port.  It is totally controlled by the 6700 and lacks any front-panel switches to provide the same control manually.

SO, 1.09 is USELESS to me and costs me a lot in functionality.

Enjoy your Tesla S and LA.  I have no use for either.

Rick W7YP

Howard, it is also not true that the Alpha team has not seen these radio crashes.  Tim has already confirmed that they have.

Furthermore, FAR more radio owners are seeing this than you and FRS know.  I've had half a dozen confirm to me privately that they have but haven't posted about it for various reasons, the most common being that it is already known and FRS doesn't seem to be taking it seriously.  When I encouraged them to file a support ticket to confirm this is a wider problem, two said they'd already sold the radio at a big loss and the others feared getting cut off from support if they added their names to the growing list of 'complainers.'

Rick

John - K3MA

I mentioned it before but will mention it again.  I have seen the random lock-up issue on two different stations.  One with Flex 6700 on a Window 7 computer and one with Flex 6500 on a Windows 10 computer.  The lockup have occurred when using the radio for TX, when listening only and when not using it at all.  The Flex 6700 station has been on 24/7 for about three years.  The Flex 6500 station has been on 24/7 for about a year.  Neither station had any lockups prior to the latest software release.  Each time there has been a lock-up I have looked at the operating conditions and cannot find any common source/condition.  So I can understand how it can be hard for Flex to diagnosis.  Since they have a representative that read this forum and have already acknowledged the condition I see no reason to continue to bring it up or go further with reporting it.

One thing I would add to the discussion is that....would it not be good customer service if Flex was to provide a copy of V2 to M5ZAP for testing to determine if indeed the issue has been fixed in V2 as they hope.  It seems to me that would verify if it is or is not fixed.  Would satisfy M5ZAP's concerns.  Would not cause a customer to have to purchase V2 just to see if something is fixed or not.  If it works would provide a fix without the customer having to wait longer.  Would shut up all the Flex fan boys who seem to constantly criticize those that have issues.  It would seem like a win win to me and so simple to do.

PS-My comment about the Flex Fan boys is not a joke.  I personally do not post on the forum much due to the regular and predictable responses that come from the half dozen or so regular posters that seem to have a need to talk on Flex's behalf and feel that they have to defend Flex from every issue or negative comment.

John K3MA

Tim - W4TME

We have no verifiable evidence that your lock up issue is the same as the ones experienced by alpha testers.  Since they are running alpha code you cannot directly equate your experiences to those of alpha team members - you are not running the same code.

Bill -VA3WTB

John,
Gerald has said he expects to have some who are having this problem test V2. Before release.

The so called fan boy thing,
Everyone has trouble at some point as a Flex owner. It is how people handle their frustration that can be a problem. And everyone are different.
It is the misleading and unfair comments made at times that get people to defend a great product.
It is good to explain our problems on here and see if someone can help,,but when it comes to all out trashing the radio,,and, or the Flex team? then yes I think it may be time to step in. I don't see this as defending Flex as much as defending this community that is here for all of us.

Tim has left guidelines here many times as to proper conduct, that includes the way we vent as well. Respect?

KY6LA_Howard

@Rick Just curious how you controlled ur SPE and DEMI with V1.09?

Andy M5ZAP

Tim

Direct quote from Ria

"With 1.10 release version my experience was similar to yours although not multiple times per week. More like once a week."

Ria had lockups on 1.10.16 release version not alpha or beta or RC

Rick W7YP

That can't be done and therefore I don't.  I was pointing out why I'm forced to remain on 1.10 OR give up a great deal of functionality for which I've paid a great deal of money.

KY6LA_Howard

@Rick

Since I don't have a DEMI I am not qualified to challenge your statement on the DEMI albeit you stretch your credibility when you indirectly imply that left the DEMI in the box until V1.10

OTOH... SPE Definitely works WELL with 1.09 .. in fact, I was one of the people involved with SPE and DDUTIL over a 2 year period to cause the SPE Firmware to be changed so that it could be fully controlled by DDUTIL and Flex.  Further the current SPE implementation via USB in V1.10 is crippled in that it is unable to support all the SPE features that are available via DDUTIL.  As an Alpha I did test the USB for SPE in 1.10 but almost immediately reverted to DDUTIL because the USB lacked sufficient controls to be able to operate remote safely.  I look forward to those features being included in some further release of V2 or V3 at which time I will use the USB

AFAIK No One has "PAID A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY" for V1.10.  It was a FREE update to your existing radio but I can see where you might conflate the cost of the radio with free updates.

Finally I guess you are just going to have to wait until V2 is in General Release in the next short while to see if it hopefully fixes issues similar to yours so that they can backport the fixes into 1.11 

Enough Said.. probably a good time to close this thread even though one of the Lockup sufferers will just reopen it under a new guise...

Andy M5ZAP

Howard,

If the thread being open bothers you may I kindly suggest you don't visit it. To make the forum an open place a level of tolerance of other people views, experiences and problems is necessary.

You have to tolerate me complaining and discussing the lockup problem even though it doesn't impact you directly.
I have to tolerate people often reminding the forum they own an expensive high tech vehicle and spend considerable time on foreign travels.

What doesn't help a thread is when people dilute the subject matter of the thread by diverting the discussion to other areas that are of more interest to them. It bloats the thread and makes it more difficult to find relevant information in.

You don't have the lockup problem so you are lucky, calling for the thread to be closed or questioning if people actually have the problem wont help.

There have only been two main threads on this topic, one discussing the initial problem and then another discussing if Flex have proved its fix in V2.0. When V2.0 and V1.1 software is released there will be another fresh thread started, hopefully discussing how the problem has been resolved.

Milen KG2C

Something to add to Andy's comment: the continued discussion of this topic is of interest not only to those who have the problem but to those who have made a reservation on the upcoming radios or are thinking of buying one. If your radio already works as it should, that's great. Those of us waiting to buy one are hoping we don't get a lemon.

Mike VE3CKO

Providing an unreleased product to a customer who is not on the Alpha team would set a dangerous precedence. Why him and not others who have problems hoping to get fixed? What problem and who decides which party to send the unfinished software to?  They have an Alpha team who have signed an NDA for a reason.

As per "defending" Flexradio, if a poster goes out of their way to trash another poster or Flexradio then complain about the backlash, sounds kinda familiar to what we see in the news every night. Presenting concerns and issues in one thing that is promoted here but certainly disrespect is not.

Burch - K4QXX

Just to clarify the DEMI 2MLDPA 2 meter amp comes in two versions.  If you order it with the "remote" option, the only way to use it is with the USB cable hooked to the Flex and you control the amp through SSDR.  I had to wait several weeks to use the amp until 1.10 came out.  If you didn't order with the remote option, it doesn't matter what version of SSDR you use since it doesn't have the USB control cable.

Rick W7YP

Howard,

I pity the poor guy/gal who ends up with you sitting on their jury if you think that I indirectly implied that I left the DEMI in the box until V1.10.  You'd be convicting them on 'evidence' no one else saw or heard.  There's no way that can be read into my posts; in fact, I didn't order the DEMI until after 1.10 was released.

As for my SPE amp, yes, I'm aware that I can control more of its features via DDUTIL; however, that would only be useful to me if I could reliably remotely operate my 6700.  Having had it hang twice in TX mode, my attempting to operate it remotely at this time would be grossly irresponsible.

To insist is that 1.10 didn't cost me anything is too ridiculous a statement to deserve a reply.

Rick W7YP

Mike,

Why would that be dangerous?  I've spent 30+ years in embedded systems development and we did it all the time.  Doing so helped us to quickly identify and resolve issues that only showed up in certain applications/environments and it's what SERIOUS debugging efforts do when they can't reproduce a problem in the lab or among their 'official' test team.

None of those customers objected to signing an NDA and none of our customers who weren't included felt left out.

Rick

KY6LA_Howard

First. You clearly rarely remote or you would know that to operate safely you need to be able to remotely reboot power to all devices. Second. U will likely have to wait until after V2 is tested in the Wild before you know if it cures the issue and they backport it to V1.11for ur Free upgrade that u paid a lot of money for.

KY6LA_Howard

First. You clearly rarely remote or you would know that to operate safely you need to be able to remotely reboot power to all devices. Second. U will likely have to wait until after V2 is tested in the Wild before you know if it cures the issue and they backport it to V1.11for ur Free upgrade that u paid a lot of money for.

Mike VE3CKO

Rick did you have a public forum for customers to voice concerns and badmouth the company? 30 years ago there was no live interaction you have today. You will get a few complaining why they were not chosen. Flex has a good team of Alpha testers in place and a reporting procedure they are quite comfortable with and why upset the apple cart in this late stage when release is imminent. Training a massive group of new testers would result in a lot more overhead to sort out useful reports from complainers. I have no clue as what measure have or have not been taken to try to duplicate this issue. You can't fix what you can't duplicate. I must assume it's not just radio related but a combination of a setup like O/S, 3rd party software installed, hardware connected to both radio and computer, just to name a few. Mine may go for weeks or a few months without a lockup then get 2 in one week. So let's say I get to test it on my setup. Then nothing happens for a few days, then a few weeks or a few months. At what point does it pass?
In my case it seems to happen days after I open up 2m and 6m, but then it happens the odd time overnight. It could have been a power supply fluctuation or brief interruption and no way to eliminate that with a power line monitor that I don't have. Guess what I'm saying is I certainly can't duplicate the problem so I will wait to see if v2.0 improves or eliminates this issue.

Rick W7YP

Mike, it's true that we didn't have quite the same interactive forum-hosting tools that exist today; however, we did have email lists and various flavors of "bulletin boards" which performed a similar function.  Yes, there were whiners who weren't really helpful but we got a lot of useful feedback and did catch a lot of bugs that would have persisted into a new release by opening up late beta testing to those who saw those problems on a fairly regular basis.

In some cases we sent someone to the customer location; in others, we installed remotely accessible debugging software.  We saved immeasurable embarrassment and support costs by preventing a problem we'd been hoping had disappeared in a pending new release from being pushed out to an already frustrated community.

Several of those who see the crash frequently, myself included, have many years of experience in embedded systems and wouldn't require training.  We've offered our assistance and were turned down flat.  I've never worked for a company that ever would or did turn down such offers when we had a difficult and critical bug nipping at our you-know-what.

And, no, this crash isn't due to a combination of factors external to the radio.  It's a problem in the radio which results in a segmentation fault.  I see it frequently even though I have a conditioned UPS and fast dedicated 6-core PC controlling the radio.

I hope it is gone in V2.0 and obviously have no choice but to wait and see if that proves to be the case.  If not, where do we go from there?  They're talking about a back-port to 1.11 next, but that will mean three versions (1.10, 1.11, 2.0) that have the problem.

That would simply make it seem more apparent that the corporate message is that the minority who are experiencing the problem just aren't important enough to do whatever it takes to resolve this nasty issue.

Rick

Rick W7YP

Howard, you sure seem to know a lot about me even though you don't know me.  I guess you just can't stop making rash assumptions at this late stage in life.

Yes, I've remoted many times before and have the ability to remotely turn on/off power to the devices in my shack; however, one of my two TX hangs occurred shortly before a brief Internet outage that would have made remote power reset impossible.  Fortunately I was in the shack for that one.

I know that I can get a bit more sophisticated and spend even more money to add more hardware or upgrade my hardware to support wireless connectivity as a backup to the Internet and maybe even a hardware watchdog to detect an apparent TX hang and automatically reset power to the radio.  But when I've never had to do that for ANY transceiver costing far less, why should I have to do it for a radio for which I paid $8100?

Rick

Bill -VA3WTB

That would simply make it seem more apparent that the corporate message is that the minority who are experiencing the problem just aren't important enough to do whatever it takes to resolve this nasty issue.

I understand your a bit bitter not taken up on your offer. This comment above would be inconsistent with what we have seen and know of how Gerald runs things. I with I had a buck for each person over the last few years saying they no more about the radio and the software than Flex staff does, or explaining to Gerald how to run a company.

KY6LA_Howard

I double homed my systems about a year ago after an Internet Failure and am now using both a cable modem and a MIFI connection just to forestall the eventuality of another Internet Failure.. .  So far that failover has worked flawlessly

However my most recent remote failure was caused when the Digital Logger Web Switch controlling power to 8 different shack devices failed. so now I am duplicating that as well... 

One can Never have too much redundancy when remoting.

"why should I have to do it for a radio for which I paid $8100" 

Sound like me ....

"why did I have to wait for BMW to figure out why my $125+K BMW burned a quart of Oil every 500 miles"

...  BMW did not even try to figure it out or acknowledge the issue but just gave me free cases of oil. 

I eventually dumped the BMW for a Tesla  - no oil...and a bit less expensive...

At least Flex unlike BMW has acknowledged the issue and expects that their assumption that the new code in V2 might fix the issue so that it can be backported to V1.11

In the meantime you will just have to wait and see if the fix works.

Being that you claim to be an expert in embedded systems and I would dare to assume software as well you probably know that no amount of kvetching will speed up the process of getting the software finished and working.

Right now the Alphas are working very hard trying to break V2 which is getting very, very close but no cigar to a final release candidate..