Is it just me feeling like this?

EA4GLI

We are upset because we got replacements for the 6300 and 6500 before we got the version 2.0 of the software which was supposed to be here 2 years ago. We are upset because version 1 is buggy and still lacks basic features. It looks like many didn't even bother reading Steve's post. He couldn't have described my own thoughts better. Steve you are spot on... Unfortunately.

Walt

I agree, Howard - I pay $40 - 50 a year for other hambone software I use, and would have been happy to pay Flex the same.  I would also love to pay Flex $200 for a feature package for my type of operating, rather than just throw me into the "contesting and WAN" group. 

There is software I use for logging and even though I paid once and supposed to get all updates for free, I sent the guy another full payment when he did the ethernet interface for the Flex, because I was so glad to get rid of CAT.  Enjoyed paying for yearly fee for my contest software when they did the same and went total ethernet.

 I think a lot of hams are ready for a pay-as-you-go software model as long as the improvements are feature-rich.  What that means will be between manufacture and the focus-groups they use to set product priorities.

I do not know that Flex can change the business model at this point, but having different feature packs for dif. operators is something that would open my wallet.

Time will tell

Oh - there was a great presentation on W5KUB at the Flex booth that I saw this morning.

Cheers

Mark WS7M

I think the root of this thread and the issue so many are upset about is simply this:

1) They bought a flex whatever and feel it does not have through SmartSDR 1.x even the basic features they would get in say an Icom or Kenwood knob radio.

2) They also feel that FRS mislead them by saying they were a software company but developing mostly new hardware over the last two years.

3) Some also feel like hey... I just got my expensive radio now you tell me there will be a better one, cheaper?

First, on point one.  I think Flex should put more effort into the software and provide the "basic" features people are fussing about.  Perhaps they come in a release 1.x prior to 2.0.  Who knows.

But like Lee stated above if you bought your flex on a promise it would have some feature you wanted then that is really your fault.

On point two, FRS not delivering like a software company should.  Where is the contract you agreed to when you purchased your expensive radio that binds FRS to ANYTHING more than the warranty?  There is not one.  In fact in this world FRS could have sold you Flex 6700s then the next day decided to make nothing but steel towers.  There is no law against that. 

I feel it is perfectly normal for a company to adjust to the market.  FRS clearly felt more hardware was needed.  But in defense of them like so many have said:  Show me the icom, kenwood, yaesu trade up programs!  I've used FRS trade up twice and both times I received the full price for my trade in.   Can't beat that one bit.

Last on point three, this happens in every industry.  Things will get smaller, faster, better, cheaper and no company is on the hook to keep a product going for any period of time.  FRS could decide to **** the 6500 the day after they launched it and sold 200 of them.  What FRS does right is if they **** a product they make it pretty darned easy to trade up.  Again show me where icom lets you do that.

As far as market value, MOST THINGS drop 50% the moment you open the box.  Seems to me that used 6500's and 6300's will still sell for a reasonable price until such a time as the new gear from FRS begins to deliver.  Unfortunately FRS has not proven themselves to be great at delivering gear on time.  So I think if you have 6300 or 6500 and you want to sell, now is the time to do it.  Smart buyers will realize that even though the 6600 is documented from FRS as someone said here they probably won't ship one until close to 2018.

Lastly, on paying for software.  No issues with that either.  But in return the moment FRS starts charging us for software the updates had better come.  Nothing will **** a market faster than if they start to charge and we don't get regular updates with new features.

Peter K1PGV

@Howard I think Flex could use somebody with a software entrepreneurship background on their ****. Perhaps you, me, or perhaps Mr. Orman (if the "David Orman" above is the same David Orman I'm thinking of). Not to tell them how to run the company, but to provide the sort of "been there, done that" experience that can lead to avoiding others mistakes. Then again, maybe their board is chock-full of such people -- when it comes to another company's strategy, we really are guessing with about 20% of the data. For us, it's sport.for them, it's real life. Peter K1PGV

W9TVX

I completely agree Howard. I've been in the software business for over 30 years myself. Personally, I would have no problem paying substantially more for a major release or an annual licensing fee for enhancements (vs bug fixes) if it means that the company can continue existing and delivering product.  

If you think about it at $200 software upgrade per radio, a thousand seats would cover the loaded cost of  1 to 1.5 software developers. How many thousands of radios does Flex have in the field running SmartSDR?

My guess, is that Flex most likely has to continue selling hardware to generate revenue in order to fund their software. Which is problematic because hardware sales are a one time sale and the margins are not traditionally great.

I would hope that they would actually have a model that derives more of their revenue from software because that has better scale and margins which in the long run is ultimately better for the company and the user community.

The flip side is that folks who buy SDR radios such as Flex have to think of the hardware as an initial investment in a platform that will have much more longevity that a traditionally closed radio, and that the software is something that they will have to continue to purchase if they wish to evolve the platform.

This of course also means that companies like Flex must stand behind their hardware and demonstrate that the hardware platform won't face obsolescence in the short to medium term

Rick WN2C

If I am not mistaken, Icom or rather the dealers were taking reservations for the 7300 and 7610. These are just the one I remember recently. I am sure their were other manufacturers doing it also for some models in the not to distant past.

Pat N6PAT

So you want Flex to stop hardware advancements until they provide software updates? You actually expect the hardware development to grind to a halt?

Does Microsoft stop new device development until every Windows user has all the features they want? Why should it be different with Flex?

Bill -VA3WTB

I find it interest, how some say they have dumped their radio and Flex, but still continue to post their disatisfaction here every time there is room for a dig.

I suppose they have that right to, but it is clear regardless what they say, they are really not done with Flex,,,it's just talk. I think for me,,I would just go another direction, instead of spending so much time telling people here how unhappy they are over and over and over.

Tony Hateley

At last someone else agrees with me on what I said over a year ago

EA4GLI

I expected version 2 and even 3 before new radios, yes I did. I am certain I am not alone.

Pat N6PAT

Then you are being unrealistic to expect the company to stop all hardware development until you have every software feature that you want.

Try telling that to ICOM, Kenwood, Microsoft, GM, etc.

James Watts

Pat, again you can't draw parallels here. Flex, by it's own admission, is a software company. Software is the radio, or so that's what FRS has been preaching since their inception. Software development was supposed to have been hardware-agnostic throughout the 6000 series.

Jim, W8GN

Duane N9DG

Yes the JA brands keep their customers completely in the dark with regards to new any products in the pipeline.

And it is interesting to watch the reflector lists for those brands and their various models each time a new firmware updates come out. There is always a wave of posts about the disappointment about what the new firmware doesn't fix, and also how those firmware update rarely include any new functionality. If there is any new functionality or feature in the newer firmware, it is very minimal and incremental in nature.

James Whiteway

I might be wrong, but, I seriously doubt that your 6500's value would drop that much. Before you give up and throw in the towel, how about calling Flex Radio tomorrow or in the not so distant future and see what they offer? I bet it will be a lot more than $1,000.00. I wouldn't sell or trade in mine for that price. Even when Flex dropped the 3000 and 5000 radios, the used market for them was (and still is for the most part) quite good. And don't forget, the 6500 will be using the same version of SSDR as the new kids on the block. While it won't be able to take advantage of having dual SCU's and the "Contest Filters" (whatever those really are) it still has the SAME ADAC and FPGA as the 6600/M, and the same Sample rate (256 MSPS). It is still no slouch in the performance department. Plus, the 6600/M does not have a real BALANCED mic input like the 6500. Not even an 8 pin mic connector, just a 1/8" phone plug. Sure you can get an adapter for the XLR to 1/8" phone- Psudo Balanced mic connector. But, I bet it won't work as well as the real deal.
So, don't give up. Keep the 6500 (which I plan to do unless thing about the 6600M tempt me too much :-) ) or if you sell it outright, I'm betting you'll get more than you think for it.
james
WD5GWY
 

Jerry WA9UKB

Thanks for the encouragement,

iz7auh

Words, so many words, maybe it's not clear but FRS is only interested in making gains, no matter what ... I also feel abandoned, I invested on my 6500, then on the Master thinking of dealing with a company Different, serious, instead we are the guinea pigs, their public beta testers, we have a device that works at 50% of its possibilities, so much so we have not been given, because they might think it will be introduced in the new series and we **** maybe we will buy New series .... I hope they realize what they did ... I'm betrayed!

Ned K1NJ

    In fact, the radios were sold on the basis of expectations about where the
software would bring us.  I guess the sight of new boxes does not do much
towards fulfilling those expectations.

        Ned,  K1NJ

Jerry WA9UKB

I guess better than this video. Lol https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zGZqnc6_5To

James Whiteway

Hadn't seen that in years!!!! Good one!

Ken - NM9P

I seriously think those running scared about reduced value of their 6500's are just that--running scared. The 6300 and 6500 have been discontinued, but are still very much supported and are NOT obsolete. Nor will they be for quite some time. They will run the same SSDR that will be developed for the 6400 and 6600. This is much different from dropping PowerSDR and moving on to SmartSDR with the 6000 series. The 6500 was near the top of the top ten rigs before the new flex rigs were released. Nothing has changed in its performance. In fact, its performance will continue to improve as new software is released. Panic-ridden estimates of $500 trade-in values or $1000 resale values, I think are severely overstated. I am awaiting word from Matt in a few weeks about a trade-up from 6500 to 6600 and anticipate it to be much more generous than that. So far, Flex's Trade-in and Trade-up programs have been very competitive, because they want to keep customers in the fold. BTW: as they discussed the new equipment, at the banquet, it was stated that the new rigs incorporate things they have learned during the phase five years of production and support for the 6000 series. Thus the new rigs will have lower phase noise and better RMDR than the previous rigs. Yet the 63/6500 have not been deminished. They will still work, and upgrade, as well as they ever did. I did not expect them to make this change as quickly as they did. But when I saw the new 6600 I signed up for a trade-up within half an hour. Even though this is Software Defined Radio, and software drives development, I would not expect them to halt hardware development. Especially since the new hardware and old hardware are compatible and will run the same software. The new rigs will simply bring new users into the 6000 SDR arena with better equipment for less money. That is a good thing! Yes, I spent more money, but that is the price of being a pioneer in cutting edge technology. Ken - NM9P

John - K3MA

Gerald did say at the Sat dinner that the Flex revenue was up 30% last year.  I only counted two Flex staff at the dinner who were software developers.  Hopefully, some of that increased cash will end up with more software development resources.

Marc Lalonde

right now we knot it go in new hardware and low level firmware for new radio instead of new function of V.2  ;-)

Asher - K0AU

I built my station from scratch in 2013.  I chose the Flex 6K because the hardware architecture was the only new radio that made sense to me.  I chose the 6700 because it was the flagship, and I wanted to be sure that every interesting new feature would run on my radio.  I frankly thought I'd be running software 3.0 by now and I'd have paid Flex at least two upgrade fees.

The only real question I have about the 6600 is whether the CPU/DSP systems have changed enough for me to worry about features running on the 6700?  I have said before that software support for multi SCU has not been well integrated with loggers.  I'm hopeful the 6600 will grow the multi SCU market enough to fix this issue, but worried if there are hardware differences, features will not show up or work as well on the 6700.  Does anyone know if the 6400/6600 are a common dev target with the current models?

Richard Kemp

Did Flex stop producing the 6300 radio? I looked on there website and it says product not available. I bought a new 6300 radio about a year and a half ago. After many version 1.0 updates, there are still problems with the radio. As for the Version 2.0 upgrade for the radio, well I doubt i"ll ever see it. It seems like there was plenty of time to design two new radios and a new amplifier, but no time to get the bugs out of the SSDR software. I guess we should forget about the Version 2.0 for the 6300. When the Flex 6300 showed up as number 21 on the Sherwood engineering receiver data listing, I was very surprised that Flex radio had very little to say about the poor showing. Maybe they didn't really care because they had newly designed radios, soon to be released at Dayton. I understand that companies need to update their products to capture their share of the market. But in the process when you are telling customers that software updates and upgrades will be made available in a timely fashion. The company needs to honor their commitment to the customer. Due to the recent events, I think my 6300 is about worthless. I don't know if or when Flex is going to update or upgrade the software for it. It's 21 on sherwood's list, I doubt anyone will pay top dollar for it. After all everyone is buying the new Icom radios

W9TVX

Great questions

James Whiteway

"You can please some of the people some of the time, but, not all of the people all of the time!!!"  It has always been that way and it will always be that way. I think all of the speculation on Flex's business model is just that, speculation. It is obvious to me that they are doing something right, or they would have never made it this far in the Amateur Radio market.  And they would have got out of the Amateur Radio market a long time ago and stayed with their commercial/ governmental products. Or disappeared by now. I think Gerald knows his customers and what they want and how to best deliver it.
  I'm over my initial reaction to the introduction of the new radios and the discontinuation of the 6300 and 6500 radios. Both will be supported via SSDR for as long as the new radios exist. Since they are all Software Defined, adding features and fixing bugs to them is not an issue.
   When I purchased my first 6000 Series Radio (6300) which I bought used from another ham, I called FRS and talked to Mat in Sales, he told me that SSDR would eventually (he never stated exactly when) be equal in performance and basic features to PowerSDR.  Some things have been delivered and others, I expect will come in V1.x at some point. (all mode squelch, working Noise Blanker and Tracking Notch Filter to name a few) More so, because those are not new "geewhiz" features or eye candy, but, basic things we (and I) have come to expect from Amateur radios.
 So, for me, I have stopped the hand wringing and worrying about the value of my 6500 and Maestro (selling or trading up) and instead intend to enjoy it no matter what FRS does. (but, again, if the Trade UP deal is sweet enough, I might run it by my CFO (wife!) and get the 6600M.
Thank you FRS and I hope you continue to improve and add features to SSDR and add new and exciting/enticing hardware to the lineup of excelent radios.
james
WD5GWY
   


Ken - NM9P

Any software they develop for the new models will also work in the 6500, unless limited by hardware, i.e. requiring 2 SCU's, etc. The 6500 is still supported, and will be able to upgrade to any of the V.2x.x. releases to come. It has been discontinued, but is NOT obsolete. It is still supported as part of the 6000 Series just as much as the rest. You haven't lost anything. But others have gained the possibility to join the game with better equipment for a little less money. How is this betrayal? Unless the expectation was that FRS would never improve their hardware or try to make it more affordable for other hams to join the party....

K4MT

Because your 6300 and 6500 resale value has hit the sewer!  Surely even you can see that if you take off the rose glasses.

Ken - NM9P

Hit the sewer? Come on. Statements like that are extremely premature. The new releases haven't even begun shipping, and the only sewer-pipe prices are because a few panic-stricken people are lowballing their prices out of fear before there is any real market pattern to drive prices. FRS hasn't even made any statements about prices in their trade-up program. That is going to influence the used market, because most folks interested in upgrading will certainly not sell privately for less than the FRS trade-up value. That would not economic sense. Right now I think many people are "hollerin' before they're hurt," as my grandmother used to say.

NM1W

Lets see what FRS does, or doesnt do... It would be great if they supported the current radios.. Let me say that again, it would be great if they supported the current radios.... dax corruption? still there after several releases.. rig crashing yep got it..  Sure I can back up to a prev release.. I had the dax corruption there too... I can go to my F5K with PSDR.. It didnt have the dax corruption nor the rig crashing.. Its just a tag light on panadapters and slices, but it was reliable.. Something the F6k Is not...
Lets see if FRS follows thru and fixes things or obsoletes us by forcing a rig upgrade to get reliable fixes....
I'm not from Missouri, but I'd sure like to see actions, not more words words words..