Hi I just received my Maestro today and when I installed the batter there is no usb plug for chargin

Cal N3CAL

Can the MAESTRO use wired Ethernet while operating on internal battery power?  Page 11 of the user guide currently states: 

 "It can operate in a fixed mode connected to external power and wired Ethernet, or in a portable mode using internal battery power and a Wifi connection."

Is the manual correct or is it misleading?  My hope is either Wired or Wifi  with or without external power.  Please clarify.  Thanks...

Cal/N3CAL

Tim - W4TME

Cal -  yes, it can operate on battery with a wired Ethernet connection.  In general, if the unit is not being operated portable, you should be using a wired connection with DC power.  This will provide the highest performance configuration.

Jay -- N0FB

You are not thinking this through Steven.  The cell phones, iPads, laptops, etc all have written specifications that the battery companies must adhere.  As long as they build to their customer's specifications, these large organizations will buy tens, or hundreds of thousands of units.  That's a lot of leverage.  

These packs being used in the Maestro were meant to be sold directly to the public. They were not designed for any specific product or company.  Therefore there is no requirements.  There is no contract verbiage for defining what constitutes breach of contract or its remedies.   No major customer with deep pockets and attorney's on retainer to help hold the battery manufacturer's feet to the fire.

There is also a tacit liability when charging these batteries within the Maestro not being spoken here.  LI PO batteries are known for catching fire and sometimes exploding, especially if charged incorrectly.  I'm sure this exposure to litigation was not lost on our good friends at Flex Radio.

Of all the things that one might get upset about...this ain't one them.   Open up the battery door, take the battery out.  Charge it.  Put it back in.  Enjoy your radio.  Get on with life.

Steve K9ZW

@Steven - There is a "Chicken and Egg" problem that becomes insurmountable in your take on how FRS should run their business.

As they have been very clear that the whole idea behind a highly updatable ecosystem is that user features will become available when they pass FRS's building, testing and debugging - crystal clear from the very start with the SDR-1000, crystal clear with the Flex-5000/PowerSDR I bought from them, and crystal clear with the Flex-6700/6300/Maestro/SmartSDR I currently use - that I never had an expectation of a final product.  Not ever.

Actually I think your take that their be a final product and the FRS model that products/product features will be issued in waves as available are at odds.

Pejoratives like "don't hold your breath" "always promised things with flex" "everything is 1/2 completed" are a reflection of your buying in to a developing product ecosystem before items you feel are mission critical for your style, use and expectation were available. 

If there were proven settled features you absolutely wanted/needed, why would you buy in early, and even more so why would you then moan about it?

Over and over folks on the community, the various reflectors and in person have said "you always can wait until the evolution is where you are comfortable" - that sage advice remains rock solid. 

I happen to very much like participating in the evolution of the product - I find it exciting what is being added.  I am really intrigued what will be the FRS buzz at Dayton, especially if there is more than the Maestro roll out.

Basically Steven, are you too having fun?  As it sure comes over that you are not, and if there is no joy in mudville perhaps switch up to something else until what you desire is out.

Catch you in QSO sometime to chat?

73

Steve

K9ZW 

Greg N8GD

Even though some of the more knowledgeable posters here (e.g. Howard) have briefly but incompletely touched on this issue, I would like to point out a very important fact to those on this thread who think this battery issue shouldn't be a problem, since other battery types are easily rechargeable while in service.  ALL Lithium type batteries have electronic circuitry embedded in them to control the charging and discharging of the battery, as well as protect the battery from environmental issues, such as temperature and high discharge rates.  As mentioned, some won't even turn on until a particular load is applied.  This is in addition to the voltage conversion circuitry required to get the 3.4 V native level up to the 5.0+ V USB level.  Since Flex had to deal with regulatory issues with shipping 12,000 maH batteries, the decision to use a consumer grade battery pack was made, as documented in this thread, which introduced the uncertainly of those battery packs and their widely varying circuitry and specs.  These batteries are far more complex than sealed lead acid, NiCd, or NiMH batteries.  Yes, Li batteries have been around for several years, but for their benefits of power density and light weight, they are very fragile compared to other battery chemistries, not to mention their propensity to explode or catch fire, especially in these large capacity versions.  If you think it's easy, just look back to the problems Boeing had last year with Li battery technology in their new 787 Dreamliner aircraft.  Flex made a decision that had to be made to ensure timely delivery of their product, safety, and compliance with shipping regulations (again to ensure safety).  I am not a Maestro owner, but I applaud Flex for its development and ultimate availability to the Amateur Radio world.

Greg - N8GD

KY6LA_Howard

@Cal The Maestro runs fine on battery. As I said, I seem to be getting 5-7 hours on the 12,000 mAh Polanfo. When the battery runs down you get a low battery indication telling you to swap batteries. There is a small internal battery that holds you while you swap batteries or plug in a DC source. YOU ARE NOT TETHERED TO A POWER CABLE The only thing that has changed is that when you are tethered the battery does not charge as it needs an external charger.

KY6LA_Howard

@Burt As part of the Alpha Team, I along with many others, participated in the testing of different batteries and different hardware and software combinations. Since much of my operating is done via remote operations, I was more sensitive to battery issues than many others may be and spent a lot of time testing different remote scenarios for the battery. The final configuration now seems to be workable for battery operation and the absence of an internal charge cable does not preclude successful untethered operation.

KY6LA_Howard

I believe Jay gave a lucid explanation of the issue.

KY6LA_Howard

I believe Jay gave a lucid explanation of the issue.

Samuel Strongin

What low battery indication do you mean half the maestro shutting down and intermittent operation .

N9VC

Steve K9ZW,

I agree with you. All these arm-chair quarterbacks
who, somehow, have the feeling they know better
how to run a successful company. I have had Flex
radios back to the early days of the 1 watt Flex
SDR-1000. I remember calling back then to talk to
Eric about a problem I was having. I was told he
had the day off. I understood and gave them my phone
number at their request. I expected to hear from
him the next day or so. A half hour later, he calls
me on the phone, on his day off, from home, and gets
me straightened out. Get that service from the big 3.
Look at the problems Icom had with the 746 displays
and losing transmit, due to overheating. What about
Yaesu with the FT-5000 with the OLED displays. All
can have problems.
The fact that some are having problems with the Smart
software and others are not leads me to wonder what
might be a local problem, due to how their computers
are set up. Do they follow the update instructions
to the letter? I'm sure, all will say YES. I had
some problems because I took shortcuts and started
to just do the update without reading well-written
instructions. I cannot blame Flex for my negligence.
Look at Icoms update instructions. Don't do it right
and the radio will be rendered useless and then have
to be shipped in. Think Icom will pick up the tab on
that?
The Steven, you reply to, 2 months ago posted on a
different thread. 'Get the Maestro out and then issue
updates.' Now he says they should not have shipped them
till they are right. No matter what Flex does, some will
be very unhappy, which must be a joy to sit around
the dinner table with those types.
Read some of the comments on Eham about some of the
problems with the other manufacturers. To say they do
it right all the time can be flawed.
I cannot understand purchasing something if it does
meet your expectations. Flex has met all my expectations,
plus my wife's. She hates computers, but now picks the
Flex 6500 over her FTdx3000. Thanks Flex for doing a
great job. You deserve a round of applause.

73, Jim N9VC

KY6LA_Howard

@Samuel

When my battery runs down I have been seeing a low battery message saying the unit will shut down soon - connect to a power source..

Currently running other tests but I will run the battery down later today or tomorrow and try to post some screen shots

G8ZPX

The alpha testing sounded like great fun. Personally, I will wait until the beta testing is over!  

I get the impression more and more from your posts that the alpha team are too much in love with their technology/new baby and less concerned about user acceptance.

KY6LA_Howard

Your choice

Steve (N9SKM)

I find it comical how many people were bitching to get them to ship them 3 weeks ago and how quick some people are jumping on some stuff now that they are shipping. (Not specifically talking about the battery thing here as that came as a suprise that the news was so late. But remember there is an internal battery so it wont die when swapping packs)

Its a brand new to market product and there is gonna be bugs, But they will fix stuff based on the precieved need from the community i am sure. Lets all remember we are dealing with a small company here not one of the big 3 in Japan with unlimited budgets. part of the reason i bought the flex is how responsive they are as a company and the fact that there is always something new around the corner.

Im patiently waiting for my invoice as i ordered early July, and am prepared to recieve an extreamly well put together product even if there will be some bugs that have to be fixed. At least with our stuff its a software change instead of a rig having to go somewhere to have a mod done.

Keep it up FRS

N9VC

I have to correct my last paragraph of my comment. It should have read
'does NOT meet your expectations.'

Steve (N9SKM)

I agree with everything besides this :"ALL Lithium type batteries have electronic circuitry embedded in them to control the charging and discharging of the battery"

All quality ones do. But i have seen some 5v packs that are very marginal in this situation an example was one that turned the boost converter off but left cell voltage directly on the output so that particular unit could cause low voltage hazards.

But any quality pack will have proper battery management to minimize any safety issues. Heat,over and under voltage as well as current is what will **** them. This is the reason that i use LiFePo4 packs with my kx3. they are much more tolerant of abuse than Lithium Cobalt cells.

Steve K9ZW

Well said Greg.

I did run the Maestro power pack by a business friend who's firm makes custom packs for mainly the medical industry.

Can be done, but the cost control didn't seem to make it an economic option (I had thought to have special packs made to market as a non-FRS provided accessory).

He is going to have a look at a Maestro to reaffirm his initial take that FRS made a good decision to use the mass market LiPO packs for a decent cost/benefit option.

73

Steve K9ZW

Steve (N9SKM)

I was looking at cells and what a circuit would cost to home brew a pack and i dont think the cost would be worth it either. Although you could get 6 18650s in there which could get you over 20AH it would be far more expensive than an off the shelf unit. The Li-Po cells i looked at were either small or akwardly sized for the unit but you could pack alot of capacity in there.
Let us know what your Friend says if he find anything that would be viable, I would probably be interested if it was all constructed with name brand cells instead of what comes in most usb packs.

Lawrence Kellar KB5ZZB

Jackery Titan 20100mah $39.00

Gerald-K5SDR

Bottom Line:  

You charge the optional customer supplied power pack for Maestro exactly as you charge your smart phone or tablet.  You can even plug it into the same charger.

Maestro is designed to accommodate a customer provided cell phone LiPo power pack available through high volume consumer channels such as Amazon.  Charging and operation of the power pack for use in Maestro is accomplished in exactly the same manner you would for use with smart phones or tablets. Charging of the power pack is done by plugging its charging port into a standard 5V USB charger.  A charging cable typically provided in the package with the power pack.  To work properly in Maestro, the power pack must automatically turn on when it senses that a load is applied to its 2.1A output port.  This is easy to test by plugging it in and watching its LEDs come on to show it is supplying power.

Maestro is designed with a snap open battery compartment door (no tools required) that allows you to swap power packs in about 15 seconds.  The software will give you 2 minutes to change batteries when it detects that the power pack is dead.  A good 12000 mAhr power pack will give you 6-7 hours on a charge for around $20.  Buy two and you can run all day. 

History:

We chose to incorporate off the shelf LiPo smart phone power packs because they offer very high power density at ultra low cost.  Their availability is driven by the high volume consumer products industry.

Our power control circuitry was developed and tested using Mogix and Sony batteries purchased last year.  In our internal testing they operated and charged flawlessly.  We demonstrated battery operation at many hamfests where we were able to charge the Mogix batteries inside Maestro.  As we expanded our beta testing over the last couple of months, more of our testers started to purchase Mogix batteries.  Suddenly we started getting reports from some but not all testers that they were having problems getting Maestro to boot on battery or to swap from DC to battery.  

At first we were not able to repeat the failure at FlexRadio because we were still testing with the original Mogix batteries.  Then we purchased a large number of Mogix batteries to use at hamfests for demo.  When we started testing the new batteries we found that some worked and some didn't.  For example the unit I use at home worked 100% of the time.  

A significant portion of recent delay in Maestro delivery can be attributed to trying to find the root cause of the problem.  We bought more batteries from different manufacturers and most seemed to exhibit similar problems.  Either they would not boot or they would not charge when placed in Maestro.  

We thought at first that we might have a software or hardware issue in Maestro.  We did extensive work to look at the power management software operation without success.  We looked carefully at the hardware power switching design and could find no fault there.  

Sometimes the root cause is the last thing you think of.  On April 28, I was personally testing every battery we have to look for some correlation that could be used for diagnosis.  I was showing Matt what I was doing and he asked, "What if you disconnect the charging port?"  I tried that and suddenly every single battery that was failing to boot Maestro now worked.  It seems that many but not all of the batteries we tested do not function properly with both their input and output ports simultaneously connected to Maestro.  Why?

That began a comprehensive digital scope analysis of the circuit along with a search for batteries that might function properly.  We tested a variety of software switching scenarios as well as potential circuit modifications.  None improved the reliability.

We actually found another pack that did work with both input and output connected but it charged very slowly and there is no assurance that the same brand will work the next time you buy it given our Mogix experience.  We came to the conclusion that there is no way for us to know if a given power pack purchased by a customer would allow both connections at the same time.  

We simply exhausted all of the practical near term hardware and software modifications to the design that we could make to assure reliable operation with the charging cable connected.  It turns out that the majority of these power packs are simply not designed to charge and discharge at the same time and thus their protection circuitry prevents such operation.  If they are, there is not assurance that the circuit will not change for cost or other reasons.  Therefore we made the difficult decision to remove the charging cable to prevent significant support issues due to customers plugging in both cables on batteries that won't work in that configuration.  That made no sense whatsoever.

So again, the bottom line is that you will charge the optional power pack exactly as it is designed and marketed - on a USB charger just like your cell phone.  In fact, I am using an old iPhone charger to charge mine.  Takes just 15 seconds to hook it up.  

If you are going to operating extended time on batteries you will want to have multiple charged batteries ready at all times.  The capability of swapping high density power packs in seconds allows you to carry a number of packs for extended operation that would not otherwise be possible.  You should be able to purchase 24 hours worth of batteries for under $100.  That's a bargain.

Neal_K3NC

Gerald,

Thanks for the note, it explains the hard work that everyone went through to solve a problem that isn't immediately solvable.

I feel that Maestro is a completely new product, once I got it my mind was blown. Its the best product I have purchased in the last 3+ years, so it pains me that we are having to hash out something like this.

Burch Akin

I can verify the low battery message.  I was just in a QSO and I got the low battery message.  Something to the affect of change your battery or plug in power.   I quickly finished my QSO.  I had a spare battery on the table and was able to change out the batterie and the radio kept going (never shutoff).  Very cool!  

Neal_K3NC

I found throughout usage during the alpha testing that the Maestro had neat little usability tweaks like this. I was usually impressed how usable the device was for such a new class of device. When I didn't know how to do something (and this was before the tremendous manual was available), the device did things better than my original idea.

John-K3MA

Thank you for the complete and thoughtful explanation.  Greatly appreciated.  My only observation is that it would have been better to have proactively shared this with the customer base in advance of the modified units getting in the hands of the customers.

Neal_K3NC

There are very few perfect people out there and likewise perfect companies. The Maestro is such a killer device that you can understand the desire to get it into the hands of customers asap. Live and learn.

John-K3MA

Agreed.  Only constructive criticism not a personal attack.

Tim - W4TME

John - the decision to remove the charge feature was made the morning the first Maestros shipped.  We are not a big company and there was a bazillion things going on (see the pictures we posted).  We're sorry that an announcement of a proposed feature not making the final product configuration did not get communicated the same day.

Gerald-K5SDR

We also updated and posted the manual online with the change the same day the decision was made and we simultaneously started shipment.

Norm - W7CK

I may have missed this in previous posts, but I was wondering if this feature will be added back into the product at a later date?