Hi I just received my Maestro today and when I installed the batter there is no usb plug for chargin

Samuel Strongin

Lewis Cheek

I think I recall reading, in last few days, charging circuit was left out, and one needed to remove battery to charge.

Lew
N4CO

Steve K9ZW

Maestro were shipped without an internal micro-USB charging cable so the one USB A cable that you plug into  is to power the Maestro NOT Charge the battery.  You currently need to use an external USB Charger to Charge the Battery.  Flex will likely issue an official explanation.

and later from Tim:

 I'm wanting to be able to charge the battery while left in the Maestro case while plugged into 120v using the provided wall wart without opening the battery door to change cables.  Is that not possible?  

I am afraid not.

Let me provide some clarity.  We had fully intended for the battery installed in the battery bay to be recharged by Maestro when the unit was connected to an external DC power source (the coaxial DC power connector).  What we determined after extensive complete product testing, is that the battery charging feature was not working as intended and we decided to remove the feature.  As such, you must charge the battery using a charger or the recommended charging method provided by the battery manufacturer.

This business decision was made only after exhausting all reasonable options, meaning that engineering a solution that would work for most batteries would have significantly delayed the shipment of Maestro for a feature that is not mission critical to the operation of the unit.

As Howard indicated, the issue is very, very complicated. In summary, there isn't an industry standard by which these battery packs are engineered from a charging standpoint.  Worse yet, there is a significant amount of variation regarding how a battery behaves when being charged within the same battery model.  These variations in behavior resulted in adverse and anomalous Maestro operational behaviors, such as it would not boot from the battery when plugged into an Ethernet cable).

Battery management is discussed in the Maestro User Guide.  When the battery runs low, you will need to swap it out with a fully charged battery or connect it to an external power source.

https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/maestro-battery-charging-time

73

Steve

K9ZW

Samuel Strongin

Thank You very much. Sam kf4yox

John-K3MA

Whatever happened with all the comments I have read on here that Flex takes the time to make sure something is right before it is released and that users are willing to wait until it is done right.

I saw the post about a week ago announcing that all hands were on deck getting the units ready to ship with pictures of the entire Flex crew packing up the units and the finished boxes on the dock.  Now looking back at those pictures it appears to look like a last minute removal of charging cables and repacking the units so that they can be sent out.

If that is the case then I for one find it disappointing that the same post did not also announce that what was advertised and had set the expectation in the customers minds to be able to charge the battery internally was not communicated but rather it seems to appear to be swept under the rug for the sake of getting the units out and the sales revenue in.

John

Lewis Cheek

Be careful John, you may soon drown in Flex Kool Aid. On a serious side it does seem like a lot of stuff has moved to back burner.

Lew N4CO

Steve K9ZW

Isn't that a bit unfair? I'd bought two power packs per Maestro as I both never caught the built in charger feature, but more importantly couldn't see why I would operate from battery when mains power was available? But then I am the sort of have spare ready to go battery packs for HTs, cameras and the like. Actually dislike built-in non swappable power packs (like that in my RiserBond TDR) preferring units like this where I can be in control. In the interest of getting a good.y portion of the Maestro capabilities I a comfortable with FRS shipping them now. Then I was very okay in receiving Flex-6700 #11 and working with each phase of pre-release software. Some folk waited until version 1.0 was released or until the ever increasing feature set meet their needs. YMMV but not having an onboard charger cable isn't a deal-killer for me personally. FRS explained that other than provisioning for the Maestro that v1.7 wasn't going to change much, with v1.8 following with a greater Maestro feature set and some general SmartSDR enhancements. Sounds pretty good compared to waiting months more for initial product. All best and 73 Steve K9ZW

Neal_K3NC

The truth is that after testing for weeks, we (the alpha team) came up with very inconsistent performance with the battery charging. After weeks of trying to see a pattern with the batteries that all of us in the alpha team was using, there just wasn't enough data for a pattern. Batteries of the same make and model would act differently as would different brands.

I understand the direction of the comment but after participating in the alpha testing, I am not confident that a solution was days or weeks away.

If they waited until the cause became apparent, you would all be up in arms about missing deadlines, etc.

I think Flex had to make the call based on what they were most comfortable in subjecting the customers to. I think they made the right call, personally.

Lewis Cheek

No, it's not unfair. I think many folks expected more, I know I did. Gee, it's been like a year since FRS announced Maestro. I think as Dayton got closer, lots of stuff moved to a back burner. I'm sure other think otherwise, I don't need all the remote stuff that has seemed to be focus. How many really plan to drag a Maestro to a family reunion? Sure, it's neat and I guess helps with one's ego to carry around Maestro and say look what I can do. 

I don't have much choice other than wait for another software release and see what made the cut. My use of Maestro would be to improve functionally, not show it off.

Lew N4CO

Steve K9ZW

Like I said YMMV as perhaps each of us has a different idea what they will do with their Maestro. Correct me if I am wrong, but if you have mains power why other than to bridge any power outages do you need a battery at all? I did understand that the AC adapter was fully implemented. At least that is what I expect to find after delivery tomorrow. I do intend to remote about ten blocks from my home station to my desk at my office to open up more DXing opportunities, and at my Island QTH I'm looking to put the radio gear in a shack near the tower while running fiber Ethernet back to my home there. About a 500 ft run. Knowing the Maestro would likely roll out with a partial feature set compared to later capability, it is with a cup-half-full view I'll start working with the new Maestro ecosystem . A person can always wait until the feature set is a better fit for a particular set of expectations. As many power packs seem to support charging while under moderate to light loads, would it be possible to use the charger from a specific power pack, largely sidestepping this one concern. As for timing I'd had enough contact with FRS to know the Maestro wasn't ready as early as hoped. So what though? It isn't like there are many other FRS comparable options and until very recently I only had a deposit down. When I had ordered other items for my other hobbies I often had to put down half and then do progress payments. Often with no discounting either. Here with FRS I put down 8% of list in exchange for a 20% discount at delivery. No **** from me on my Maestro deal. 73 Steve K9ZW

Burt Fisher

I charge my KX3 without taking out the batteries. I am sure someone will tell me why it works for the KX3 and not the Maestro.

Lewis Cheek

Burt, I'll bet you'll be told something, maybe not related to batteries.

Lew N4CO

[Deleted User]

It just seems like flex rolls out product with a partial feature set. Bluetooth . . . later, battery charging . . . maybe, software bugs . . . we'll get to it eventually. I think when my invoice comes for the maestro I'll pass on it till they get it right. People having problems with wifi etc. As far as I am concerned the Maestro still is not "ready"

Steve K9ZW

Elecraftt with the KXBC3 NiMH Charger option for the KX3 decided to use Eight AA NiMH batteries rather than LiPo packs.  

Would Eight AAs be enough power to fire up a Maestro for very long?  

 With Elecraft PX3 (Panadaptor)  doesn't Elecraft supply pigtails for an external power source?  

Guess the simple answer is because of the difference in capacity?  

73

Steve
K9ZW

Steve K9ZW

@Steven - waiting until the available feature set meets your personal needs and expectations certainly is a valid approach.

Especially if a specific feature or group of features is on your "mission critical" list and it isn't ready to your satisfaction it makes sense.

There has been enough WiFi issues with every stage of the increasing Flex-6000/SmartSDR capabilities that it isn't surprising there are teething pains.

Given the amount of Alpha Team testing and that now people have had their Maestros only days you might want to just watch for a while.  

But it should sort out as the Community, by design, attracts the problems for fixing and those reported are but a few.

73

Steve
K9ZW

KY6LA_Howard

@ Steve 

One would need about 10 AA NiMH batteries to be equivalent capacity to a 12,000mAh Li Battery AND you would also need a separate switching supply to produce the 5.2V DC needed to power the unit as an USB power source. 

As I stated the Battery turned out to be too complex an issue to solve in a reasonable amount of time with reproducible results so Flex made a business decision to eliminate the internal battery charging in favor of being able to deliver Maestro this year. 

Jay Nation

Just a thought.

Does the lid for the battery compartment have to be replaced?

I'm wondering if charging the battery pack with a USB cable plugged into a spare USB port on the shack pc might be possible. I've got several of these batteries that can be used to power other devices while charging. There are USB charge cables available that are flat and thin. I use those to recharge my android cellphone, while it's in use.

If the cover can be left off, I might be less tempted to clip, or grind off one corner of the lid accidently 

I have no idea, if this is possible, or whether it voids warranties! Just wondering.

73, Jay - NO5J  

EA4GLI

IMHO the battery should have been part of the Maestro. Tethering the maestro to mains and even ethernet, completely removes the use case I have envision for the device in my case. I want to be completely wireless. I am disappointed with the turn of events with the battery in the Maestro roll-out.

KY6LA_Howard

@Sal

Due to regulatory restrictions  on the shipment of Li Battery containing devices, an early decision was made to use an external battery. 

Since the beginning of the Alpha process I have used WIFI and Battery Power almost exclusively for my Maestro.  In fact the one time I was asked to physically connect it to a hard wired Ethernet port I had to crawl behind cabinets to find a free one.

I still continue to use it on WIFI and Mains Free almost 100% of the time.  So your use case is not precluded in any way whatsoever.

I am currently using the 12,000 mAh Polanfo Battery which seems to last 5-7 hours depending on the use ..you can hot swap the batteries due to the fact that there is an internal backup battery... so you would be virtually wireless 

EA4GLI

I really hope so. I looked at the polanfo when i was doing my research because it was cheaper than the motrix [sic] and slightly larger capacity but based on earlier feedback I decided to play it safe. I made the wrong choice it seems... I should have purchased the 12000mah one. I find myself unable to use the likes of Amazon and ebay, so I have to purchase things, have them shipped to colleagues in the US and then arrange transportation into the island. I guess it makes me a bit more paranoid about getting the right stuff or making sure everything works before it leaves the states. Thanks for letting me know that it works... I am sure that we will find a solution to charging the batteries... But finding out that the usb mini was removed doesn't feed my optimism in a future capability to charge the battery... And it feels like an odd choice... Like not having bluetooth from the get go.

Tony Hateley

Just like the flex 6000 series radio the products are not ready for the prime time,still waiting for the basic on the radio,never mind anything else

KY6LA_Howard

Welcome to the Bleeding Edge of Technology, 

Every time one attempts to invent something that has never been done before you run into unforeseen issues that no one could have reasonably anticipated.  So it takes a bit longer to get things right.  But that is the price that many of us are willing to pay to be at the forefront of innovation. 

The battery turned out to be one of those unforeseen issues.  Because of regulatory issues it is extremely costly and difficult to ship devices containing Li Batteries.  So it was decided to use a commonly available USB Cell Phone Charging Battery Pack

One would reasonably assume that all batteries of a similar type such as being able to produce USB 5.2V would have similar performance specifications.  One could also reasonably assume that batteries from the same manufacturer with the same model number would act approximately in the same way.   It turned out that neither of these assumptions were true. 

There is no standard for Li USB power packs. The packs are usually but not always 3.2V internally with a switching supply to produce the USB 5.2V. Some batteries start on 100uA draw, some need 500uA and some need a button pushed to start.  Some have protection circuits to prevent shorts and cut off above 2A draw and some cut off very different voltages.  Some do not cut off at all.  To further complicate the issue different batteries need differing charging voltages and currents to even start charging and some will shut down entirely when they get too hot or charge too fast.  Some need the charging cable and the USB A cable connected to charge and some did not. There are a myriad of other variations.. but you get the picture.. no consistency.

To make matters much worse,  the quality control and consistency within a specific model number of the same brand was just too randomly different to be reproducible. 

We spent a number of weeks/months diagnosing the Maestro circuitry and enabling software trying to find a solution to erratic charging and battery performance behavior.  Finally Gerald was the one who actually figured out that it was inconsistent batteries rather than software or hardware that was the issue.  By removing the charging circuit the problems went away. 

We tested all sorts of makes and models of batteries hoping to find one that would work reliably.  None were 100% reliable.  I personally had good luck with the 12,000mAh Polanfo but YMMV.  

Finally Flex had to make a very difficult decision... Delay the release of Maestro for possibly several months while dealing with Battery Manufacturers to find one could make one with reproducible performance characteristics or just remove the charging circuitry that the different batteries caused to malfunction and ship now.   Since the Maestro worked well on battery AND the battery can easily be charged externally, the internal battery charger would have been nice BUT it is not a deal killer.. nor was it important enough to delay the deliveries any further....

Now you have the rest of the story.....

Bottom line;  Nothing much to get your shorts in the wringer...

For the most part we have been rewarded for our perseverance on the Bleeding Edge of Technology with best of class performance and outstanding features that are not available anywhere else.

ctate243

ka7gzr

Howard,

I guess the problem is the Li batteries and chargers are not considered to be the “bleeding edge”  technology. They were 10 years ago. I bet that most people reading this have had Li Batteries for some years with wall warts that charge them without many problems. The FRS recommended batteries have a very simple charging system derived from the USB standard. So why-o-why suddenly this became an unsurmountable problem?

I suspect it was a time and monetary problem. My experience has been that typically the battery and charging system are considered at the end of the design process and don’t get proper attention and I understand that. But that’s not because of the “bleeding edge technology”

Jim

Ka7gzr

VK7WH Winston

Thanks for the detailed explanation Howard

EA4GLI

I guess you had to be there to see the issue first hand , and i don't doubt the difficulties you explained Howard. But completely removing the charging circuit means my unit will never charge a battery, not even at a later date. Any little plug in the wall pretty much charges and does what couldn't be achieved in the Maestro... It is difficult to wrap my mind around that concept, a $5 wall charger can do what the Maestro charging unit couldn't...

Burt Fisher

Howard you said, "We spent a number of weeks/months diagnosing the Maestro circuitry " You were there in Texas and participated in the engineering?


Cal N3CAL

This is actually disappointing news for me.    I was expecting the MAESTRO to be my stand alone computer which would replace my laptop for portable use!   The MAESTRO demo I saw in February at the Richmond FROSTFEST had the charging cable installed and I was led to believe there were no issues with charging.   Without a charging circuit it appears that there is no way for an operator to tell how much battery life is remaining if running on a battery?  What happens when you run out of juice?  Will the MAESTRO be able to power down without corrupting the OS?  I wasn't expecting to have to be tethered to a power cable. 

Cal/N3CAL

Dave Dave

[Deleted User]

The whole point I am trying to make is for the money paid there should be no issues. NONE. It should work out of the box. When you buy a radio from other manufacturers it works and works as it should. I plug in my kenwood to my router and I can do remote on my pc anywhere in the world. It just works. With all this testing done it should just work. We are always promised things with flex and it does not materialize. Always get Future update . . . In bug tracker, how about a noise blanker that works. Bluetooth with Maestro . . . Don't hold your breath waiting. Everything is 1/2 completed. Don't get me wrong I like my 6500 but it seems they forget about us and the little things that make a good radio great and are looking for the next BIG ****. So now I'll sit and wait for the small things like the dropping the dit. But that fix is in the works . . . Nuff Said

[Deleted User]

Lithium Ion batteries are NOT bleeding edge technology. Every manufacturer in the world that uses them charges them. They are in cell phones,,ipads, computers, laptops. Imagine if I had to change the battery on my laptop every 4 hours because HP can't figure out how to charge a battery . . . . Give me a break.