Flex or a box with knobs?

Duane_AC5AA

I've heard the "victim card" used in a lot of places, but never on a 30 day free trial before! Unless you have a good friend willing to loan you one so you can try it out in your own shack with your antennas, etc., this is a really good way to do that. If you can't remember you're trying it out, well then that's not the seller's problem.

W7NGA

I think once you have experienced the wide-spectrum panadapter and filtering possibilities, you will find it very difficult to send it back. The fact that so many users are now using Windows 10 successfully should convince you to persevere, have fun with the new operating system, and work the world with your new Flex. 

Steve K9ZW

@Monk

I like my Flex-6700/6300s - - AND I like my Collins S-Line gear.

For any setup YMMV - it is a personal thing.

As a couple folk have mentioned FRS is stand-up and has a very generous return policy, as they know it is a paradigm shift for many folk to switch to an SDR.

Too bad I'm over 1100 miles NNE of your QTH - as I always enjoy doing a "show-n-tell" of my Flex-6700 when folk stop in.

73

Steve K9ZW

Rick Hadley - W0FG

As a 69-yr old retiree, I can understand your quandry, Monk.  I can only 2nd the suggestion you attend a large hamfest or convention where you can get a feel for multiple rigs. 2 years ago I lost my airplane to a windstorm and decided to get back into ham radio after a near 10 year layoff.  My then current rig was a Yaesu FT-757, bought new in 1987.  I was on the verge of buying a new FT3000dx before I attended the Midwest Division convention and had a chance to see both the Yaesu, Elecraft and Flex rigs in operation and listen to the dog-and-pony shows from each vendor.  I ordered a new 6500 as soon as we got home and I've never regretted it.  This will probably be my last major rig purchase and I wanted something that was state-of-the-art.  That's Flex, all over. I worked in IT-related jobs most of my professional life and wanted something that integrated well.  My current shack has two computers and 4 monitors.  SSDR, HRD Log, and either my digital program or alternatively CW Skimmer, Flex Stack, Flex Meter and HRD Rotor control are all displayed simultaneously, while the laptop handles things like this.  You can see the layout on my QRZ page.  With just a vertical and a Hex-beam at 25', I've worked more DX than you can imagine in 24 months.  Aside from the new Icom 7100 I just bought for my Jeep, I'll never go back to a knob radio again.

Walt - KZ1F

Victim card? Too weird.

Burt Fisher

I didn't know what he meant

W9OY

What Duane meant is Walt's perspective on Flex is they are out to victimize potential customers.  My understanding and experience is completely different because I am not cranky old and cynical.  Seems to me giving a man (woman) a chance to gain experience with an unfamiliar product before making a purchase decision is quite rational and not nefarious.  

I recently saw an add on QTH.com for a one week old Anan 10E selling at a $165 dollar loss.  The stated reason: "just not what I was looking for"  Bet he wished he had a 30 day trial.
 
73  W9OY

Gerald-K5SDR

We have offered a 30 day return policy for probably a dozen years now.  It is a great way to reduce the risk to the buyer if the radio does not meet their expectations.  It costs us several hundred dollars if someone returns a radio but it is certainly worth it to us to make sure that our customers are happy.  It does happen occasionally but we rarely get one back.

We are not perfect but we truly care.  If we were in it simply for the money, we would be in a business other than ham radio (In the mid 1990's I ran a business with sales greater than 2X the entire worldwide amateur HF transceiver market and we were not considered a large company).  

We actually love what we do and want each of you to enjoy your radio.  That said, we are not a charity so we need to make money to keep providing the products that you can continue to enjoy.  

Finally, the knobs vs. no knobs and PC vs. no PC debate is irrelevant with the advent of Maestro from Flex and with Mac support from DogPark.

http://www.flexradio.com/amateur-products/flex-6000-signature-series/maestro/

Walt - KZ1F

Actually no Lee, once again you are deep into conspiracy theory, casting those you don't like to have the worst of all possible traits and motives.

I accuse(d) no one of victimizing anyone. Lee, it's marketing...take a course.

Burt Fisher

I don't know how Flex makes money on hams. I am cheaper than most and I bought the 6300. I am guessing it's a loss-leader.

Steve W6SDM

I'm not cheap.  I'm just poor.  

Clay N9IO

Monk,

I will simply say that the pan adapter is one of the biggest advantages you will enjoy in either DXing or contesting.  The rock solid filter skirts are absolutely amazing.
I run a Flex 6300 with a Six-Pak antenna switch and an Acom 1000 amp.
The Flex Control knob is essential to me.  I really don't need a Maestro and I would be just as happy without it but I really want to see where this is going and want any advantage I can muster so I ordered one at Dayton this year anyway.  (I suspect that It's going to get really interesting, soon!)

I generally run one slice with XIT on split (XIT/RIT are not limited to 9.99 kc as in legacy types of the past).
The Six-Pak two antenna switch I have connected to both antenna ports 1 and 2.
I transmit on port 1 but port 2 allows me to select any of my antennas for receive (whichever is quietest, VERY versatile).
I use the transverter port for my small receive antennas (EWE, pennant).

RTTY is a breeze with DAX, super clean.

Between LOTW and the Flex 6300 my DXCC count is rising rapidly and I couldn't be happier.
I am having so much more fun in the hobby than I have since I began in 1973 because of the 6000 series radios.

Gerald said in an earlier post "If we were in it simply for the money, we would be in a business other than ham radio"  I am very pleased to see a man (and staff I might add) that is as passionate about the hobby as I consider myself.  I am totally amazed at the programming talent they have on staff.
These folks are rewriting the books make no doubt, I am happy to be in this place and time in radio.

I will NEVER go back, NOPE!

So whatever you decide, good luck best DX.  Hope to meet you OTA sometime.

73' Clay N9IO 

EA4GLI

Flex 6000 series + SPE Expert + Logperiodic/Hexbeam/OptiBeam (OB9-5, OB11-5 or OB16-5) on a telescopic tower so you can do your own maintenance.

Add a 38+ inch monitor and a decent PC and you have yourself a wonderful radio shack.

About US $10,000-15,000

Burt Fisher

I am cheap and that's why I am not poor. For example I want the Maestro and was willing to wait until it was available but they would take my deposit to freeze the price until 2.0 came out. I will never pay more than the "introductory price." I am stubborn.

Walt - KZ1F

Look at it this way Burt, for a mere $200, you have the use of $1,000 for, at least, the next 9 months. It's less expensive than a credit card and you are the lender as well as lendee.

W9OY

Actually the "fix" did improve the key clicks but destroyed the QSK in the radio.  The issue was never satisfactorily resolved.  

73  

Gary L. Robinson

Monk, To get the ALL the benefits of a SDR radio you HAVE TO have a computer. Some people may disagree with that BUT one of the benefits of having a SDR rig is that you CAN write your own software to suit yourself. That is just ONE of many benefits of SDR - not necessarily the main one - depending on what is important to you. Since a computer is needed for the full set of benefits of SDR, you will have to cope with computer problems from time to time. Henceforth, your computer skills and knowledge will directly affect how you feel about your SDR experience. Of course, when Flex delivers their Maestro product, you could get one of those and use it INSTEAD of a standard computer and get MOST of the benefits of SDR and NOT have to worry about Windows updates. As long as Flex updates the system that Maestro uses I think you would have less chance of experiencing series problems. So, it depends on your computer skills and knowledge - AND what you want. I wanted to get entirely away from using knobs, etc. And I "live" in my computers and while I have a had a few problems, none have been serious or taken long to fix by myself. But many hams don't have extensive knowledge of computers, Windows, and software. And it looks like they can get most of the SDR benefits with the Flex Maestro product - which looks like it may come out in January. My understanding is that it can be used remotely OR locally with a Flex 6000 series rig. It may be the best of both worlds if the thought of fighting Windows worries you about SDR. ---Gary WB8ROL

Monk - K5HP

Thanks for the comment Gary, I know my way around a computer pretty well due to the years I spent as a high end security integrator installing and maintaining access control systems and several hundred camera CCTV systems. The "box with knobs" was slang verbiage and made it seem to some that was my preference. I actually use HDSDR and the dongle now and much prefer CAT to the myriad menus, extended menus etc. The Flex is what I will get, just had to throw it out there one more time since I strongly believe in getting as much info as I can before pulling the trigger. Thanks again for the comment. One thing I've gleaned from this post is this. I will go with a dedicated PC for the radio and 3rd party ham apps and not be connected to internet and that should help stability problems.

KY6LA_Howard

I think you want to be connected to the Internet BUT make sure Windows updates are turned OFF

Monk - K5HP

Yeah, I grabbed the utility you posted the other day. Why would I want to be connected to the internet?

Monk - K5HP

Well, now that I think for a moment, I guess callsign lookup , DX cluster and other things just wouldn't work :-))

Burt Fisher

I owe no one any money by not doing bad deals. Paying an additional $200, Flex gets over 25% interest plus I don't have the equipment.

Duane N9DG

While HDSDR is wonderfully useful for running with just about any piece of SDR hardware that is imaginable. It is not the most user friendly in terms of day to day use and controls manipulation. SmartSDR is much better from a user experience perspective, as is PowerSDR. Ditto for the effort to set it up.

And if you are so inclined, you can feed DAX IQ output(s) from a 6K into HDSDR and it will do its thing just as if it was being fed from some other piece of SDR hardware. For grins I was able to get a 6500 have 8 simultaneous RX's that way ..

To me one of the greatest things, and really not mentioned much in this discussion about the 6K series is the amount of multi-band, and multi-mode, "parallelism" that you can achieve with just one piece of RF I/O hardware.

The last few days I have been playing around with feeding the 6500 from my DEMI 2M transverter. With that I was able to setup a 4 MHz wide panadapter to watch the entire 2M band, then another panadapter setup for about 200 kHz width to more closely watch the weak signal part of the band +/- 100 kHz of the 2M calling frequency of 144.2. So I could see and quickly tune in FM signals while simultaneously be copying SSB signals closer to 144.2.

But that wasn't operational "parallelism" enough for me. Because I could, I added a combiner in the RX IF line from the transverter and then patched my HF multi band HF dipole into the RX input as well. So the 6500 was being fed both 2M transverter IF signal, and HF band signals. I then setup WSJT-X to decode WSPR traffic on 630M. And I even fired up another panadapter on 40M copying yet another SSB signal.

So basically I was monitoring multiple signals/modes on 2M, 40M, and 630M all at the same time. None of the boxes with knobs/buttons models at any price can even come close to doing that many different modes on that many different bands, and do all of that at the exact same time. Yes I added some hardware beyond the 6500 itself, but it was trivial to do.

My motivation to play with combining signal sources feeding the 6K was to get a sample feel for what I think the SO2R box will be able to do based on what I seen about it so far. And as part of that what the trade-offs of combining RX input sources might be.

EA4GLI

For one the possibility of remote operation of your Flex.

I personally believe, and this comment is not directed to anyone in particular, that using a computer nowadays, is as important as being able to read and write might have been 100 years ago. You can either get on board with the technology or slowly fade into the background. No wonder amateur radio operators have been very early adopters of computers.... we are all tinkers!

I love opening a book from time to time, is a great feeling. It sucks that everytime I move I spend more money moving the books around (I tend to move overseas) that it would cost me to buy them new again! I have a vinyl collection and a fairly decent CD collection, over 5,000 albums. They are all sitting at home, in a basement, not to be moved ever again. Not being enjoyed at all. I have great pictures printed and shorted in albums, collecting dust next to the CDs. Thanks to technology, today, I can carry all of that on my cellphone!

If I want to work on my car I can see a youtube video or have the technical manual in front of me on an inexpensive tablet. That wasn't possible 10 years ago. I can find tons of information on the internet on anything... not having a computer would be so sad....

Complaining about Windows (which I indulge in from time to time) while talking about the Flex radio is like complaining about having to use a power supply, coaxial cable and an antenna with any radio.
What are these FRS people thinking? They supplied me with this device that I can't just plug into an outlet!!! I turn it on and I don't hear anything, what is this crazy thing you call coaxial and antenna?? It should just work. Don't just give me knobs, give me a device that works with no effort on my part of any kind.

You buy/use a superheterodine radio and you are supposed to know about impedance and radiation patterns and RF and grounding... what reaction would I get if I go to any amateur radio forum and pleaded complete ignorance on all of those subjects? Will anyone take me seriously?

If someone wants to be on the cutting edge of what amateur radio has to offer today they get an SDR transceiver. If he/she is really brave and can program his/her own software to completely manage a Direct Sampling radio buy Flex's competition (hermes board) and compile your own software. I don't know how to add anything to any radio so I personally like the Flex approach, I use my dollars to "invest" into a company hoping they will deliver with new features. So far they have for me.

If someone wants to enjoy a bit of radio here and there and that someone doesn't care much for cutting edge, get an IC-9100, it has everything, including VHF and UHF and you don't have to bother looking at panadapters or using a mouse or a computer.

If your budget is limited, invest in a great antenna, 500w of power and any radio will do, there are great options in the used market.

But if you are here, asking, is because you already see something in SDR, and the Flex package is very appealing. Right?

I correlate radio transceivers to flying. You can buy an average japanese radio, that is like flying couch. You can get a top of the line japanese superhet radio (business class) or an Elecraft/Hilberling (First class). Great machines, still flying commercial.

Or you can get a Flex 6000 series which is like getting on board of the ISS or flying in the space shuttle. You are a pioneer and it is not without issues and challenges (Huston we have a problem) but, boy, oh boy, we are going to the Moon!!!

Don-KB6TSQ

Monk,

 

I am bias in favor of this radio technology, so keep this in mind.  I have work only a few of the high end radios from other companies.  I did my research and purchase a Flex 6500 in November of 2013.  I am working JT65 and JT9 on 15 m while I share my 2 cents on this topic. 

 

So I will start with the radios strengths:

 

1. Very visual.  When operating this radio you can tell where there are open spots in the band or where there are pileups.  It is easy to separate strong signal from weaker ones.  I used this in a recent CQ CW contest to work 44 dx countries.  I had 135 contacts in a little over two hours operation.  I am not the best CW operator.  About 80 percent were dx contacts, sorry US operators.  After using this radio I cannot go back to a less visual radio.

 

2. Best receiver I have ever used.  Very quiet and the sound quality is better than any radio that I have used.  The gain can be adjusted to your preference.  You can adjust the gain response.  The audio runs through an equalizer that is visual on the screen and not buried in some menu.  I do not have big antennas or big amplifiers here, so can hear more stations than I can work.

 

3. Easy integration with other software.  The software I currently use is WSJT-X v1.5.0,  N1MM Logger+ and Fidigi 3.22xxx.  Operators on this site use these radios on Apple, Linux, Windows 10, 8.1, 7, ?.  There is no additional hardware required.  The radio is hooked to a router, wireless router, or directly to the radio.  Because of the software programs I have learned how to copy CW at a higher rate.  I connect Fidigi and have it copy CW at the same time I do.

 

4. Remote operation at my QTH  I have three different computers that have the software to connect to the radio.  One is a small ASUS notebook.  I run the radio through a wireless router so I can operate the radio from outside.   I love to build antennas.  I use the remote abilities to tune a transmitting magnetic loop that I built.  I place the radio on the frequency I want to use and adjust the vacuum capacitor until a peak in on the frequency I want to use.  I then put 1 or 2 watts though the antenna and measure the swr and generally it is less than 1.5 to 1.  I can sit the near the barbeque and can work any mode from my front or backyard when the weather permits.

 

5. Receive Filters.  This is part of the receiver, but I thought it should be mentioned separately.  There are built-in filter widths, for example SSB has band widths of 1.6K to 4.0K.  This is totally adjustable by the operator, both the width and where the filter sets on the received signal.  Again this is very visual.  This can help you eliminate or reduce strong adjacent signals.  Tracking notch filters (TNF).  These are filters that can be as small as 10 Hz or as wide a 5960 Hz.  The TNF filter can be set to three levels of your preference; normal, deep and very deep.  These can be placed in your receive bandwidth to eliminate an annoying neighborhood or household noise.  These can be remembered if the noise is persistent.  Automatic notch filter (ANF)  This filter will eliminate almost all rude tuners from the receive bandwidth.  This works very well and is adjustable.

 

6. Software updates.  Each software update add functionality to an already excellent radio.  Initially this was one of the drawbacks, but this is now one of this radio's strengths.  The DSP noise has improved in the last release.

 

7. Customer focus.  Company representatives are on this site all of the time.  In the release of SDR 1.5.0, Flex went to a wide noise blanker.  Some operators liked using the regular noise blanker that had been removed from the software.  The customer feedback was acknowledged and within a few weeks the current SDR 1.5.1 was released with both the regular noise blanker and wide noise blanker in place.  Which other companies actively encourage customer feedback to shape their end product.  This is a strength.

 

8. CWX.  This is built into the software.  It lets you type what you want to send and then by pressing a button on the screen sends out the message by keying the radio using CW.  The message can be sent at 5 to 100 wpm.  The CW on this radio is very good.

 

Things that could be improved or are drawbacks:

1. When the filters are set tight on CW, there is about a 300 ms delay.  Others have measured the delay, but I have noticed it too.  I am not an expert at CW, but this is probably annoying for some excellent operators.

 

2. The received signal is the cleanest I have heard on any radio, but I think it could still be better.  The noise blanking on the lowest bands does not appear to reduce the noise as much as on the higher frequencies of the HF bands.  On the 160 m band, it seems to make the noise worse.  I think the noise reduction (NR) part of the DSP system has improved.

 

3. The current software for the radio is written to use on a Microsoft OS.  This can be a drawback.  If the software was written for the Linux operating system, I would not be running Microsoft.  You can run the software by using a virtual machine in Linux, but that is just another level of complexity.

 

Like I said earlier, I cannot go back to a knob radio.  I would do some research and choose what suits your needs.  My two cents.....not worth much.

 

73

Don

Dan -- KC4GO

But, if it was Linux only there would be a lot less Flex users so they would have to support both. 

W7NGA

Don, thanks for taking the time to craft an insightful and helpful posting.

Stan VA7NF

Monk,

There have been many posts praising the Flex radios, of which I generally agree.  The other part of your introduction was separate ham shack and antenna farm.

The Flex 6700 is a more expensive but it offers several industry limited or unique services that may fit your environment.  Primarily, it is the two phase coherent receivers (SCA and slices) that offer interesting options such as having two transmitting antennae available (same or different band) AND two receive only antennae (such as an E-W and N-S reversible beverages or pixel loop(s) ).

The key words here are faith and future.  Currently the 6700 offers very basic diversity reception in which each antenna is presented to each ear.  Like listening to an orchestra the mind "places" each sound in 3D space.  I have separated two CW signals on exactly the same frequency by their placement difference; guess voice could be similar.  Like the change from mono to stereo and higher audio.

This is where the faith and future come in - The grand-father radio (5000 twin receivers) has amazing noise reduction and signal extraction diversity but we currently have only "between-the-ears" on the 6000 series.

Single purchase, acreage, antenna farm, new house, separate ham shack:
Definitely give the Flex "radio server" rack mounted near your antennae and in-the-shack or Maestro+headphones in your family room serious consideration, also, perhaps you could listen to a 6700 with multiple sources or just flip your stereo amp to mono and remember the difference.

Regards
Stan - Age: 70, looking for high hill crested island antenna property to really utilize my 6700 - live there and/or remote from a city HOA property.  

Steve W6SDM

You know, Flex could always come out with an accessory pack with some stick-on knobs.  They wouldn't necessarily need to do anything but, like TSA, they would make a lot of people feel better. 

Ken Davis

Everything above is true. The question you must ask yourself is are you ready to move into the 21st century when it comes to ham radios. I have a 6300 and it will do everything I want it to do.  I can tell you that my setup is rock solid both on my network and with Windows 10 which I upgraded from W7. It takes me a whole 10 seconds to go from nothing to 20m with audio (I never turn off any of my equipment - No thermal cycles).

I do not have a separate or "NEW" PC to run my 6300. My PC is a HP p6380t Intel 2 quad cpu at 2.5GHz and 6GB ram. I also edit video and audio with the same PC and all the other usual stuff - No issues.

My network connection is also rock solid. I have never seen the Latency reading greater than 1ms. Normall it is always <1ms.

The only problem I had was getting DAX to work with Ham Radio Deluxes' free version of DM780 for PSK31. I sent in a ticket to FRS Tech Support and Dudley had me up and running the next day - operator ignorance not radio issue.

Good DXing in 2016 and 73
Ken
W0KRD