Flex or a box with knobs?

Steve W6SDM

Elecraft makes a great product.  If I were to get a knob radio to go along with my Flex, that's the first place I would look.  I use the KPA 500 and the KAT 500 with my Flex 6300 and they work together seamlessly.

If you want to learn and acquire new capabilities every once in a while without having to buy a new radio, get the Flex 6000 series.  I love getting a software upgrade that adds capabilities to what I already own.  I don't think you'll find a better receiver anywhere.

Steve
W6SDM

Glenn Johnson

Monk, I'm in the process of retiring also.  My only regret is not getting a 6700 sooner!  I bought a Flex 1500 as a "test" SDR radio and after playing with it, I couldn't get a "big brother" fast enough!

I have read all of the notes above and concur with most of the advice offered.   The computer is basically the display for the radio....and get a large 4K monitor (or two!!!) if you really want to be stunned with how impressive a FlexRadio can be!!!   Stick with a stable version of Windows.    The initial angst of <gasp> NO KNOBS wore off quickly.   The "controls" are all logically oriented and require no manual to understand the "menu" behind each knob of other radios.

Since you are building a "remote" ham shack, and assuming you'll have a home WiFi network, the Maestro will be invaluable to you!   It has the "radio knobs" AND you can take it into the house.

Yes, we are biased here, but for good reason!   The FlexRadio is about as ugly of a radio that you can get....BUT on the inside, that is where the BEAUTY is!!!!    Mine sits under my desk and only the mic, headphone and key jacks (and monitors) are on my desk.

The only reason I can possibly think of for not getting a FlexRadio is If you are agoraphobic (fear of open spaces).   You will have too much open space on your shack desk!

Best wishes on your retirement!   Can't wait to join you!

73
Glenn W0GJ

Duane_AC5AA

Barry - I don't get your subreceiver comment. The 6500 doesn't have one subreceiver, compared to non-SDR radios, it has three subreceivers. (or any mix of RX/SUBRX you want to call them.) Yes, the 6700 has 2 SCU's, but, compared to other radios, I don't see where the 6500 is behind in the SubRX category. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. And I find the 6500 on CW is easily as good as my prior rig, a TenTec Orion, which was no slouch. Just another point of view!

N5BE

Monk

If you get up to the DFW area anytime let me know. I have a 6300 and a full K-Line that I assembled. You are welcome to play with both. I would be glad to show you both radios, features, performance and anything else you need to make a decision. Email on QRZ is good. 

To cut to the chase the K-Line is now the back up and the 6300 is the primary station radio.

Lee
N5BEG

Mark_WS7M

Hi Monk,

As you might expect here on the Flex forum you'll get mostly a bunch of people saying go for it, it's a great radio etc, etc.  I have to join in and say "Yup me too!"

But I am also willing to step back from my love of Flex and examine it for what it is:

1) It is a computer based radio.  For now, unless you buy a Maestro which is not out yet, the ONLY way you can operate is to run SSDR on your computer (or Dogpark SDR if you have a mac).   If you are computer comfortable this will be no issue.  If you are not it may be a big issue.

2) When Maestro comes out and assuming you buy one you get the best of both worlds.  SDR + knobs.  BUT for maestro to work well you need a good network (WiFi or cabled) since it too must talk to Flex radio over ethernet.  If you don't have a network or you don't want to get one then this solution will be difficult.  To my knowledge there is no direct cable setup that is easy to use but Maestro is not out yet so I can only go on the videos and reviews.

3) If you enjoy seeing the spectrum then there is NO OTHER OPTION than flex in my humble opinion.  This is for me more than half the fun to be able to watch watch is going on on the 14 kHz segment of the band I'm looking at.  The pan adapter (graphic display) has real use in that you can expand it and zoom in so-to-speak so you can see that signal hidden in the muck or between bigger signals.  No better radio in my opinion for that.

4) If you are an ear person and do lots of listening Flex excels there too.  My ears are aging but I can tell that Flex has a great sound.

5) SmartSDR is a complex program.  Although even an icom7xxx is complex.  It takes effort to learn and to make it work well.  One thing flex gives you over other "knobs and box" radios is that you are already working on a computer to run SmartSDR.  To do digital modes is simple.  You just run the software use the provided DAX interfaces and it just works.  No need for a signalLink USB or other interface as you might need for a knobs and box radio.

6) The sky is the limit.  The flex SmartSDR software is at V1.5.1.  It can do so much but there is so much left that it can do.  I can't wait until we see say version 4.0 and what features will be available.  With most knobs and box radios you are limited by the knobs and the box.  IE they can update the firmware but only to the limit of what the knobs and box allow.  I see the flex platform as a way around these limitations.  Sure there is a limitation based on the flex hardware but I think the opportunities for new things are much greater since it is "Software Defined".

7) As far as fighting windows updates, drivers, etc.  The best advice I can give is to stick with a clean computer and OS that is well known.  At this point that is Windows 7.  Ensure it is clean, don't do any updates or add stuff you are not sure of and it will run reliably all the time.

I could go on with this list but here is my bottom line:

1) The Flex series radios is exactly what got me back into radio.  The spectrum display the options for building upon the platform excite me.

2) If you want knobs and box then get a flex and a maestro.  You'll have the best of both worlds.

3) If you are looking to save money, now is the time.  I think Flex still has some refurbished slightly used radios on hand and you'll get all the benefit for less money.

So I can't recommend Flex high enough.   Lastly if you get one and find you really are not fond of it, you can probably sell it for a very good price.  IE you won't lose much.

Monk - K5HP

Looks like I may have to find a legitimate business excuse for a trip to big D. Thanks Lee!

Barry N1EU

I'm specifically interested in stereo diversity reception - a hardware subreceiver is the only subreceiver that interests me.

Yes, this is all about sharing different perspectives.  For me, the 6500 is good but it comes up short compared to the K3s for serious cw operating.

The 6K's big draw for me is the technology - it's the most advanced radio out there and lots of fun to operate.  

Monk - K5HP

Many thanks to all who have replied to my query. Thanks to you all I am even more perplexed :-) . Seriously a lot of information has been gleaned from this exchange as well as information from those who emailed with their input. Thanks again. I'll let you know my decision when that decision is made. No doubt I'm leaning toward the Flex but .........

Monk - K5HP

CW being my main mode this does concern me and I , like you find myself drawn to leading edge technology simply for the unknown advancements in the future. May be just the ticket to keeping the old man sharp!

NX6D Dave

Delbert McCord

I was where you are now last year. I read one persons comment about having to update ICOM or Kenwood. I have both and have never did a update to the rigs and they work just fine. 

The computer I am on how is a Windoz 7. I am not the kind of person that wants to run out and get the newest operating system. I have a beard and am a little fuzzy but I do not want to be a guinea pig. 

I had been looking at the Flex at Dayton for a couple years, last year I purchased one. At first I was disappointed because I could not use my BHI DSP speaker that I just LOVE. The speaker you plug into the Flex 6300 has to be a amplified speaker. The first few evenings were terrible (I'm not a big manual reader) and I could not find a way to reduce the noise (No RF Gain) I almost gave up and just put it on eBay. Then I found the control (where slow, med, and fast is selected) that would allow me to reduce the gain. (Flex does not call it RF gain, they like to confuse the old guys).

Now that I have found that and its very simple to slide it back and forth, Its the best receiver I have ever used. I have a ICOM Pro III with the roofing filters and that's a nice receiver! 

I would suggest to keep a rig with knobs (I'm going to) but the Flex is where I think HF is going and I can see why. They are coming out with updates all the time but you have a choice to update or not and if you update and don't like it you can go back even on the rig. I do not jump on any new updates I wait a few months and let them get the bugs out of them first. This is part of Amateur Radio is about is tweaking things and learning new stuff.

Now let me tell you way really sold me on the 6300. I LOVE that fact that I can use it anywhere in my house or on my property I have my Internet ran to. Mine likes a wired cat 5 cable but will work most of the time on the WiFi. So in my shack I can use the desktop and if I'm not in the shack I can monitor a net (including checking in) or rag chew with my friends in my pole barn when I am working on a project. I do not know about you but my hearing is not so good anymore so I have a pair of wireless headphones that plug into my computers and with them I can turn the rig up as high as I wish and not bother the XYL and can talk  on it wirelessly. the headphones are around 30$ on eBay. If I use VOX I can walk around the house and do other things while I rag chew.

So in closing (Are you still awake?)  Yes it will take a little learning but I did it and still have not read the book. And you will have  alot more functionality that just a HF rig.

I like mine so much that I purchased one of the used ones Flex offered (people are trading in their 6300 for the 6500 and 6700 rigs) and I am going to put it at my cabin and put that ICOM rig I have not at the cabin on the shelf for a backup.

I hope this helps. 73 Delbert McCord KA8OCN


 

Ken - NM9P

The issue for the Flex-6000 series is NOT knobs vs. no knobs. It is RX performance, filtering, TX quality, panadapter, upgrade-ability, And general quality of operation. My 6500 is the best thing I have ever had in the shack in 41 years.

Many have mentioned the FlexControl Knob and. the Maestro. Both are good options. I have a FlexControl and really like it.

Another option to add flexible, redefinable knobs, sliders, and buttons is to get a DJ midi controller such as the Behringer CMD controller (about $60 on Amazon) or the larger Behringer. William has written some very fine software for it that turns it into a very fine control instrument for the 6000 series.

Yes, you are going to be tied to Windows, but you want to have computer logging, contesting, DX spotting, and other ham software anyway, don't you? Most of us do. So a computer in the shack isn't a big deal. Yes, those who are pushing the bleeding edge of unfinished Win 10 need to reinstall their SmartSDR software and reconfigure things every once in a while. But it doesn't take all that long once you master the process. There is lots of help here on the Comminity, too.

Are there other good rigs out there? Yes. Do any of them offer the potential, even if it is not completely implemented, that the 6000 offers? In my opinion, no. As has been said, we are only on software v.1.5.x with v.1.6 on the way soon. We get between two and four major updates a year, each one adding new features and performance enhancements.

The 6000 is the rig that just keeps getting better.
If you can handle a bit of learning curve, and can still learn a new trick or two on the computer, you won't be dissapointed.

But, as has also been said...invest in a good antenna system, too. It makes a big difference. No matter how good a receiver you have, if the signal doesn't get down the coax you will never hear it! Even a hex beam will make a 6000 series shine.

Ken - NM9P
6500 owner for over two years.

Burt Fisher

A caution, those that bought the 5000 thought their radio would continue to be improved for years but Flex has stopped doing so. The past is the best predictor of the future. Do you see the forgotten child (5000) talked about here?

Walt - KZ1F

No Duanne, the subreceiver is different than a slice. The subreceiver has it's own ant. In fact the subreceiver of the TS-990S IS the receiver for the TS-590SG.

Perhaps, eventually, someday, the Flex radios can be paired such that one can do real geographic diversity reception. I'll certainly defer to Barry's experience with DR on two antennas in your backyard, i.e. yagi and vertical.

David

That is risk with any product. At least for the years they owned the 3000 and 5000 they were getting updates. With traditional radios what you buy is what you have for the life of the radio. New radios might get firmware updates but that typically isn't at the level Flex has been providing. The update from Flex include new features or functions and not just tweak to the existing ones or fixes. In the case of mobile phones it is worse you buy it and if lucky they might be providing updates in two years before they completely drop it. TV's, PC's, etc. all have a history of becoming the forgotten step-child. I fully understand that at some point Flex will bring out a new series running on xyzSDR and that will stop the development for the 6000 series SmartSDR and only maintenance updates for some brief time after that.

So yes Flex has stopped development of PowerSDR and moved onto SmartSDR but I wouldn't consider it a show stopper for going with Flex. Just a realistic understanding.

KM6CQ - Dan

There are a lot of nice comments I have enjoyed and read here. I will simply say I know only use two radios. I really like my KX3 as a second shack rig and for travel. I have had my 6500 over 2 years now, I have never regretted purchasing it, and I have not lost intrest in it. It keeps getting better. I can really appreciate a K3S, but I have no reason to buy one. 

Best Regards,   Dan KM6CQ

W9OY

The Yaesu FT-1000D was a pretty good radio but it had one problem, key clicks.  Yaesu knew about the key clicks but never fixed the problem.  If you owned a FT-1000D you basically were just ****.  The problem was in hardware, as in if you want it fixed get a new radio.  Flex on the other hand could cure such a problem in one software update.  

The 6xxx radio is a server.  The actual "radio" resides in the box.  The software/computer part is a client.  As such you can access the "radio" from any where on the network with any computer running a copy of SSDR.  In the shack I use a i7 windows 8.1 box to connect to my 6500 or 6300.  In my office I use a i5 windows 10 box to connect to my radios in my shack which is at the other end of the house.  I've built out my system using a solid state amp that band follows my radio, and an antenna switch that also band follows and automatically selects the correct antenna.  I also have a KW auto-tuner, and it's setup so I can force a tune from any SSDR client on my network.  I have several programs that connect to my Flex as clients.  I have a logging program called DXLab, a program  SDR-Bridge that connects me to CWskimmer, a utility program called DDUTIL that allows me to control several peripheral pieces of hardware, a memory program called FRStack which I use as a software customizable bandswitch, a digital program called winwarbler, and a couple of contest programs N1MM+ and Writelog.  All of these connect to the server as clients, and my radio can connect to them from any computer on my network.  I can have my office computer connected to my 6300 and my shack computer connected to my 6500.  DDUTIL also has a built in macro language which allows me to perform multiple software tasks like: center pan adapter, set pan adapter band width, set mode to CW, set filter band width to 100hz, set power, set noise blanker etc all with one button push.

I have never had a windows/SSDR compatibility problem with either 8.1 or 10 but I run a pretty plain vanilla  setup with both of those operating systems.  Flex has a "Alpha Team" which are a bunch of users that devote hours and hours of their time  tying to break the latest alpha version of the software, to save you, the non-alpha user from suffering the slings and arrows of poorly performing software.  As problems are found Flex flags them and fixes them before the software is released into general use.  Flex has created 2 API's which allows users to write custom software to interface with their radio.  One API is called "waveforms" and it allows new modes to be integrated into the radio.  There are presently 2 modes FreeDV and D-STAR which have been incorporated into the radio by this method.  By incorporated I mean a button shows up in the mode choices in SSDR and all the proper I/O routing occurs automatically.  

The point being there is a LOT more to this box than just being a radio transceiver.  It has huge expansion capability and is the central control point for integrating an entire radio station.  In addition the Flex offers true full duplex so you can listen and transmit at the same time.  The 6700 is capable of SO2R out of the box.  It's an amazing ever growing ecosystem that allows you to delve into different aspects of the hobby almost at will with little need for upgrades, except the upgrades just keep on coming as new features are created.  One day your radio is one way and the next you load an update and you have a brand new cutting edge Noise Blanker or something like that.  The radio is plastic and malleable as opposed to fixed in stone like the FT-1000D.

One thing I don't like about Elecraft's business model is the need to always pay more money to get more features.  You buy the radio then you need 2 dozen filters and another dozen modules just to get a decent radio.  With a Flex you just buy the thing, plug the sucker in and have at it.  All of what was said about Flex's customer service is true.  My 6300 was a very early pre-production radio and I had a firmware glitch.  Eric KE5DTO the VP of software development, remoted into my radio and discovered the problem from 2000 miles away.  I was amazed at his facility with the programming.  My problem turned out to be an unpublished character embedded in my serial number, which occurred since my radio was pre-production.   He figured it out in about 10 minutes.  

Decisions decisions  

73  W9OY 

Mark Griffin

Monk,
The main thing you need to ask yourself is what type of operating do you hope to achieve with a new radio? I myself seriously looked at purchasing a flex radio. I already had a k3 and really liked it. I not only am a day to day operator but a contest operator as well.

My decision was either a 6300 or the 6500. But once joining the community it seemed that most of the issues with the flexradio was not hardware related but software related. I am an accountant and it seemed that the flex was more of a WIP or "work in process" then anything. I guess I was not looking for the challenge of the what if in each new version of the SDR software.

I realize that Elecraft, Icom and Kenwood come out with new firmware upgrades. Some more than others. I was very content with my Elecraft but was looking for something better then what I had with my K3. I finally decided on a new Kenwood TS-990S. I am very satisfied with my choice. Even though I am younger then you are I saw "too many bugs" and "What if's" with the SDR software.

I don't want you to think I am Flexradio negative individual. But I was looking for more stability in my radio then what Flexradio is offering at this point in time. If you like the day to day challenge that flex has then go for it. But perhaps look at the 6300 so at least you are not putting out major bucks. Just thought I would add my two cents. Mark Griffin, KB3Z

W9OY

I have not experienced any "day to day challenge".   I download the latest software, boot it, update the radio, and go get on 40 CW.  It runs like that till I load the next update where I rinse and repeat.  As far as performance I worked 6 band DXCC and 84 countries on the 7th band in 6 months on the 6300 all using a vertical antenna, all on CW.  6 band DXCC was my day to day challenge.  Instability in the radio was not an issue.

73  W9OY 

km9r.mike

Monk,

I too liked the suggestion of just do a 30 day trial period. I think you will see pretty quickly what others are talking about and be able to make an informed decision one way or another at no risk to you if you decide you just do not like the rig.

KF4HR

Hi Monk, and welcome to the group.  First let me say, asking the question "Flex or a box with knobs?" on the Flex forum is akin to logging onto the Corvette Forum and asking, "What's better, a Corvette or a Mustang?"  As another member pointed out, those that don't like the Flex are long gone, so obviously you're going hear biased opinions here, and mostly similar praise if you log onto the ICOM, Yaesu, Kenwood, Elecraft, or any other manufacture forum.  It's not uncommon for people on these forums to champion, defend, and justify their purchase, whatever brand it is. 

I can tell you I have owned, and own, a lot of equipment and up until recently an ICOM IC-7800 was my favorite rig.  And I can tell you I'm not a fan of Elecraft because I think they have a toy'ish feel and I hate their ergonomics.  I can tell you I've owned high end knob radios that present a healthy learning curve.  I can tell you inside of 2 months my Flex-6700 has become my favorite rig and I rarely ever turn my other equipment on anymore.  I can tell you that even though I'm far from being a PC expert, dealing with my Flex and Windows hasn't been a concern.  I can tell you a lot of things but truthfully none of this matters.  What really matters is what rig are you going to feel most comfortable operating?  My suggestion is, find a way to sit down in front of every radio that interests you, at least a hour or two, and ideally with someone who can show you how to put each radio through its full paces. Then you'll know what fits you best.

Good luck with your decision. 

Walt - KZ1F

A 30 day free trial is kissing cousin to the 24 hr test drive. It's classic marketing and stacks the deck in favor of the vendor.

km9r.mike

Possible. I just think it is a great opportunity for him to determine if the pros or cons have any merit.  He may absolutely love the rig's performance but may decide on another because of other factors. I had zero sdr experience and zero flex experience prior to my 6300 and there was some uncertainty in my decision because of what I heard prior to the 6k series. Once I first turned on my 6300, however, I knew it was a good choice and I have not regretted the decision. In fact they have just received additional business from me. 

When I bought my first couple of cars, I went in with the attitude I hope they give me the opportunity to purchase. Ever since then it has been an attitude of they should be grateful to have my business. Not because I am special but because they should have my best interest at heart. If they don't , I will find someone who does.

Walt - KZ1F

Mike, I hate sounding old, cynical, and cranky but none of them have your best interest at heart. They are all businesses. They are all in business to benefit the owner. If people 50% of the time test drove the car for 24 hours and said 'nah', they'd stop offering 24hr test drives its a marketing gimmick designed to sell product. When you are house hunting there is a pattern successful agents play. They know the house they really want to sell you. As soon as you enter the house they'll tell you, 'welcome to your new home' . the more a vendor can convince you you own their product, the less you are apt to remind them no you don't. I don't especially fault the vendor for stacking the deck in their own favor, its business. I do fault consumers for not realizing what's happening.

Barry N1EU

Yaesu knew about the key clicks but never fixed the problem.  If you owned a FT-1000D you basically were just ****.  The problem was in hardware, as in if you want it fixed get a new radio. 

Very soon after the key clicks were discovered to exist, easy mods that completely fixed the problem came out and were well publicized (e.g., http://n1eu.com/Mods/1000Dclick.htm ) - Sorry, nobody needed to get a new radio.

DH2ID

My main radios nowadays are a Flex-6500 at home and an Elecraft KX3 for portable work.
I buy American. Why? These radios are made by hams for hams and they have the best support and the best ham forums in the world.
I still keep my Flex-3000, because it is so flat and small, that I can put my notebook on it.
And I still have some extra knob radios for mobile and portable work and my EMCOMM radios are my last YAESU's: a FT-897D and FT-857D. For CW work I use an ICOM IC-756PRO, which is still IMHO one of the best CW TRX.
Years ago I was - trough a ham fried in the army at USAREUR - able to use a Drake line and later, when I was HF licencend I bought only YAESU TRX, all sold since. Now I have come all the way around again ;-)

Burt Fisher

The difference is with concrete radios they are done when shipped. With the 5000 and much more with the 6000 series they are partially done when sold (remember no FM, ineffective noise blanker, and more?).

Burt Fisher

If you buy, the 6300 is the best **** for the buck. For what you would spend for the 6500, 6700 you could have the 6300 plus great antennas. I and others have pointed out the bias in this forum, keep that in mind. If they indeed have a 30 day trial that is the best solution.

Lawrence Gray

Profiles fix that issue, as well as other settings.  Just takes a second to save a profile.

Duane_AC5AA

Monk - I find the CW operation of the Flex (mine is a 6500) to be very smooth and fluid. I run full QSK at speeds mostly from 25 - 35 WPM. Combine that with the very easy to listen to audio, and this is a sweet rig for CW.