Dayton 2015 Report - Unofficial

KY6LA_Howard

Anywhere But Dayton The issue is that the Dayton area is so depressed economically the most facilities in the area are equally run down. Even though I am a West Coaster and always fly to Dayton, I agree that it needs to be somewhere in easy driving distance for the majority of the USA. This precludes Both East and West Coast locations. It also needs to be near a major airport with good flight connections. Unfortunately I don't believe much will change as DARA has a vested interest to keep it in Dayton.

Simon Lewis

My XYL has attended a few events with me... she enjoyed Ham Radio in Friedrichshafen but I would never ask her to attend Dayton .. and sadly I won't until the venue improves .. I'll either go back to FHN or poss even Tokyo first .. Dayton looks a hole despite its status as an event
 

Walt - KZ1F

Moore's law does NOT even remotely address that and you know that Howard. Redefining things cause you think you're privileged enough to does not make it so. I, further, suspect Elecraft sales are blowing the doors off of Flex sales, wanting something to be so does not make it so. You are making claims that are patently false and/or unsubstantiated claims. While you might get away with that in the echo chamber / bubble yo will eventually get called on it.

Walt - KZ1F

I would encourage those interested to Google Moore's law then Google Wirtth' s law. Then we can discuss how these two effect radio design.

Walt - KZ1F

and Gordon Moore in 2015 foresaw that the rate of progress would reach saturation: "I see Moore’s law dying here in the next decade or so."[17].

Notice how the trend has been single core to dual core to quad core to dual quad core? In PC's they aren't getting smaller, they are just adding more of them. It's the science of etching the silicon. I think the wall was hit at 7 micron density.

KY6LA_Howard

@Walt

We do NOT need to get into a public debate over this

You mischaracterize Wirth's Law as applying to hardware situations when Wirth's law applies specifically to Featuritis and Feature Bloat that causes software to slow down over time In this situation, that is not the case,

Rather ever increasing computer power at lower costs (Moores's Law). Have enabled Hardware Engineere to design More and more powerful ADC parts with higher number of conversion bits and at higher Nyquist Speeds.

ADC ARE HARDWARE PARTS...NOTHING TO DO WITH SOFTWARE SO WIRTH IS IRRELEVANT HERE So in 2000 it was ECONOMICALLY feasible to have a 14bit ADC running at say 400kHz. Which gave you average dynamic range for a 192Khz signal decode 1st Generation SDR

Apply Moores Law by 2009. it was ECONOMICALLY feasible to have a 16bit ADC running at say 120Mhz . Which gave you very good dynamic range for a 60Mhz signal decode 2nd Generation SDR

Apply Moores Law by 2012. it was ECONOMICALLY feasible to have a 20bit ADC (over sampling) running at say 500Mhz . Which gave you superb (best in Ham Radi Class) dynamic range for a 250Mhz signal decode -3rd Generation SDR

4th Generation is part of my paper to be delivered at Friedrichshafen

Walt - KZ1F

Actually, if you are going to discuss Wirth's or Page's laws actually are, let's discuss what Moore really said and when he said it and,most of all, characterize it correctly.  "Software IS getting slower faster than hardware is getting faster. I know a little something about software, do you? And, one question I had asked you before, if all the above is Gospel, why then is the Kenwood TS-990 still going for $8,000 USD and the TS-590SG going for $1600. <- very close to the specs for a 6700.

Are you saying ADC's have no firmware? Software doesn't have to be in a Microsoft DLL, it can be burned into the chip. Why can't KYI use ADCs or....do they?

None of this has anything to do with liking the flex. It has to do with not substituting likes and dislikes with science. If you really want to fight about this, here are the folks you should talk to:
Niklaus Wirth, Martin Reiser, Larry Page, Sergey Brin, David May, Wayne Burdick, Eric, Swartz, Jim Whitehurst, not me. I have to believe KYI all have CTOs and chief engineers, with terminal degrees. A PhD is also called a 'terminal' degree as it is like Extra class, it is the end of the continuum. So why didn't I just say PhD...?
Howard, you come across like you are in FRS marketing. That, singularly, attracts attention.

No fight, I am done. As I said, this keeps percolating to the top of the list.
So you are presenting a paper, has it been peer reviewed?

I did just email the cofounder and architect of the K3 and KX3. While this is not the forum to do true infomercials for competitive brands, anyone interested in his response, please email me a <my call> at ARRL dot net.

Again, for those listening, I really do like the my Flex, I just don't sleep with it.

Steve K9ZW

The "laws of the market place" are taking care of the Dayton as a ****-hole problem.

I planned Dayton 2015 as a favor to a dear friend and to visit relatives near Dayton, but had to cancel for "Eldercare" reasons a few days before - and couldn't be happier!

For 2016 I'm planning one of the other events - debating between Hamcation and Ham-Com.

I have no intention of paying over the odds to stay in one of Dayton's flea-bitten hotels.  

I have no intention in dining out in Dayton where armed guards often are needed as bouncers.

I have no intention parking 20 minutes away in Dayton's otherwise abandoned parking lot.

I have no intention spending the days in Dayton's so-call exhibition center that isn't fit for showing livestock.

Maybe People will change my mind, but Dayton as a destination is not someplace I'd regularly go unless I was being paid to do so.

Just a couple hours west to Indy would be an awesome move - the trade shows I've attended there were matched with enough quality to be a consideration.

A person has only so much time, so much money, and so much luck - Dayton doesn't seem to be a decent return on the time, the money and the risks of hanging out in a dying example of urban decay simply are not worth it.

A recent article in the Economist talked about the issues of dying/shrinking cities, and to paraphrase said there is no reason to give CPR to road ****.  Tear it down nd return it to nature.  The Hara and Dayton are doomed.

73

Steve
K9ZW

KY6LA_Howard

Peer Review is in process right now prior to DARC Publication.

Robert -- N5IKD

Steve,
You mention 1.4.3, and the Software manual says 1.4.3, but the download page says 1.4.11. Can you explain the discrepancy?


Steve K9ZW

Would it be that v1.4.3 was the first to include the digital FM, the following release is v1.4.11 which would retain that feature, unless FRS noted a feature drop?

73

Steve
K9ZW

Walt - KZ1F

I mean your peers, fellow Phd's in EE, not my peers.

KY6LA_Howard

ADC is usually done in hardware not firmware. Hence Moores not Firth's Applies

TS-990 being $8K and for that matter Ic7851 being $14,000 proves my point of diminishing returns for Hardware Defined Radios costing more and more to produce small performance gains. BTW. Sherwood results ..6700 specs Exceeds Both those Kenwood's

Like I keep on repeating to you we own several K3'with the K3S upgrade boards at NX6T contest Station. They are currently the preferred run rate contest radio and will continue to be until something better comes along.

Now I am going to sit back and enjoy a cold glass of Château Sainte Roseline Rose wine 2014. In the calm of my Paris Apartment.(if calm were possible in Paris). And wait for the XYL to get dinner on the table.

I suggest you have a couple cold ones of your favorite adult beverages too.

Or better yet..finish your app already. I am waiting for an excuse to buy an android device just so I can try it.

KY6LA_Howard

Could not agree with you more ANYWHERE IN THE MIDWEST BUT DAYTON

Walt - KZ1F

Howard, even you know this, you can't talk about technicals intermixed with ownership, "we own several of these". That could have been a bad purchasing decision, you are assuming your ownership implies technical superiority.
Maybe the take-away is try being an honest broker of SDR, even the K3 does the bulk of it's signal processing in software, ergo SDR. As I've repeatedly said on here, competition is good, it makes all contestants better and us, the consumer, given better choices. Howard, c'mon, your repeated premise is anything other than FLEX 6x00 is old thinking legacy ****. I think it is a safe bet, everyone on this board really likes their Flex 6x000. I am sure the management of FRS really hopes that holds through the 7000 series, 8000 series etc.

You'll buy an Android when I finish? Oh, my, I am so there. It's close, not before this summer though.

Steve K9ZW

The next series, at least from some time are in the Software, not in new radio servers.  

Expect SmartSDR v2, v3, v4 and perhaps more before you expect a new hardware family.

73

Steve
K9ZW

Walt - KZ1F

There is a separate thread where I discuss this. Not necessarily from a pure technical perspective, although, nobody designs a car, dishwasher, furnace, pump, electric tooth brush, etc to last forever. I am sure when the 6 speed manual transmission came out people thought that would be the last transmission ever, wrong. I bet we'll see the 7000 in 12-18 months. Steve, I disagree with your premise. It is a fun topic though. Gerald, Greg, Steve, and Eric are all probably chuckling over our musing this point.
Best case, what is the revenue stream from every 6000 owner upgrading to v2? What is the revenue stream if 50% of the 6000 series owners upgrade to the 7000 series? Yes, it's only 35 people or so, but they still have to eat, pay mortgage and send their children to college.

@Howard, if you said you'd switch to Linux, it'll be out even sooner.

Robert -- N5IKD

Ham-Com is nice, several airports in the area, and they change the venue as required by the needs of the hamfest.

Walt - KZ1F

But Steve, tell us what you really think of Dayton!

Steve K9ZW

Love the people, but the place is a **** hole that doesn't deserve the people in the first place.

Plain enough Walt?

73

Steve
K9ZW

Walt - KZ1F

Steve that's a saying, when someone goes off on something. You never heard it? It a distant cousin to, "Well, aside from that Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play"? Yeah Steve, I got it the first time.

Steve K9ZW

Long ago I learned to treat every question as legit lest someone really have a question.

Dayton is foul compared to the dozens of other cites I visit each year, and it is only the people that kept me coming back.

Missing this year I realized the ROI of the people can be easily substituted by attending a different event, and have no intent of returning to the Hara swill.

Right now the main reason to consider an override would be to attend FDIM, but again is it worth it?  There are other QRP events in places worth visiting, aren't there?

To be honest Walt that you asked wasn't a strong indicator that you "got it" and hence the simpler words.

All best and 73

Steve
K9ZW

Walt - KZ1F

Whatever. I have never been to Dayton, though I did my undergraduate work in Ohio. But, literally ever person I've spoken to that had been to Dayton hated it there but they do the annual pilgrimage there anyway. Now I know I'll never waste my time. There was an awful lot of imagery in your description, I could visualize perfectly what you were describing, plus there was Howard's description of the raw sewerage...nuff said.

Ken - NM9P

I have been going for thirty years, about every other year. I have seen not only Hara Arena, but the whole neighborhood around it deteriorate severely during that time. The Salem "Mall" is now just a crumbling parking lot. There few quality restaurants close by. Indeed, just as many cities in the Midwest, Dayton has taken a severe hit. I like the idea of moving to Indianapolis. I grew up 20 miles east of Indy, and now am about 2 1/2 hours away. The Indianapolis convention center is a great place, but parking downtown can be expensive. I also don't think that a where in Indy would tolerate the illegal dumping that is the aftermath of the thousands of flea market vendors leaving their unsold junk on the parking lot. Yet, I keep going to Dayton because it is close (only about 3 1/2 - 4 hours away. It is familiar. It has become a tradition. And it is still the place where manufacturers reveal their newest product first, and vendors give the best deals on all manner of equipment. When I go, I usually sleep in my mini RV at a secret spot nearby where I am the only one parked. If they pass the baton to a better location that is not too much further away, I will gladly move with it.

Joe, KQ1Q

KZ1F: "Howard, c'mon, your repeated premise is anything other than FLEX 6x00 is old thinking legacy ****."

We can evaluate this by looking at a previous transition: when oscilloscopes transitioned from analog to digital.  The first digital storage scope my company considered in the mid-1980s cost $35,000 ($77,000 today) and had a 50Mhz bandwidth. We just couldn't justify it.

As recently as 2007 there are articles saying digital scopes will never fully take over, you can't get a 100Mhz dual-trace digital scope for under $1,000. Yet I just bought a four-channel 100Mhz digital scope last month for $399.

Analog components can only be optimized so far from a performance and manufacturing cost standpoint. Whether you attribute it to Moore's Law or not, the future is digital and in radio applications that means SDR.  This is not limited to ham radio or even commercial radio.  I previously posted this video by National Semiconductor demonstrating a multi-tuner SDR cable TV receiver. It's three years old, so things have progressed even further today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sspSh7o3x_A

As described in that video, manufacturers who fail to pursue SDR will find themselves increasingly disadvantaged from the standpoint of performance, features and manufacturing cost. In this context SDR does not mean using DSP filtering at the IF or AF stage, it means demodulation and detection in the digital domain.

k0eoo

Nice video Joe... (At the risk of getting stomped on by somebody)  I don't know if it has been mentioned already, but I think Howard's reference to the K3S' DSP not being SDR like in the Flex6x00, refers to the the 6x00 radios are using DDC on receive.  Even the earlier Flex radio's didn't directly digitize the spectrum as shown in the video....  The KX3 uses Direct conversion like the earlier Flex radios.... SDR seems to becoming a broad term, so in the 6x00 case, SDR w/DDC may be the differentator....

Dennis, k0eoo

Walt - KZ1F

Discounting, for the moment, the whole 'knobs, dials, and switches" thing at this point KYI and, of course, Elecraft all have firmware upgrades therefore all have some portion of their signal processing done in software, digital. Take a look at Alpha 9500, multiple microprocessors controlling the amplifier, yet it still does analog (vacuum tube) amplification. Sure, the 2KFA and 1KFA or KPA-500 are digital, but would someone dismiss the Alpha 9500 as 1980's era legacy linear amplifier?
The first color TV cost millions of dollars, now they are door prizes. The cost has  nothing to do with IC circult density (Moore's), rather consumer marketing and parts from China and Taiwan. BTW, I am all for buying American.

the achilles' heel of direct-sampling designs: 
the A-to-D converter is exposed to hundreds if not thousands of
strong signals within the passband, and the peak power of these
signals due to in-phase addition can result in power spikes 
that cause IMD.

Everything has it's tradeoffs.

Joe, I think this conversation is done. it has left the world of fact. So, for peace, harmony, and the American way of life, let's all stipulate anything FRS sells is the best new thing ever, the rest is ****, and all enjoy our radios.

Joe, KQ1Q

While there is no governing authority that defines the use of the term "SDR", in general it means demodulation and detection in the digital domain. So earlier Flex radios and the KX3 which downmix then digitize the IF would be SDRs, as would newer designs that digitize the RF.

However radios which simply use DSP filtering (at either IF or AF) would not properly be termed SDR. If they were, then my Denon stereo receiver is an SDR radio because it uses DSP filtering for the tone controls. Nobody even calls it a "hybrid superhet/SDR" receiver. It's a traditional analog broadcast receiver with DSP filtering.

Bill -VA3WTB

It would be ground breaking if someone could define what SDR is and were the cut off point is. Howard has done some great work on defining this but not all agrees with him. It may just be at a point that SDR is what ever you deem it to be.

KY6LA_Howard

You would think by now the alleged debate as what is a LEGACY Hardware Defined Radio and what is a SOFTWARE DEFINED RADIO has been settled for a long time now It's pretty obvious from that attached drawings of HDR vs SDR @Walt. You continually misquote me as equating. Legacy = ****. Legacy refers to the older generation HDR technology and has NOTHING to do with defining the quality of the technology only that it was create in a Prior Predigital Era.