CW sidetone

Carsten, DL6LAU

... I like keyboard CW but no way to use any of the 'contest software programs' if only CWX works ... 

73ss

Carsten, DL6LAU

N5NHJ

Again, we are talking about several scenario here, let me clarify and add some tips for the paddle.

Scenario 1 - SmartSDR (local or remote, doesn't matter) using keyboard and CWX.
Everything is ok, SmartSDR (not the radio) generates a (fake) sitetone, no latecy.

Scenario 2 - A logging software (e.g. N1MM, DX4WIN) is interfaced to SmartSDR to generate the code.
SmartSDR doesn't support any other option but configuring a 'virtual' winkeyer though SmartCAT. The logging software (assuming it can control a winkeyer) will be configured to interface to the 'virtual' winkeyer exposed by SmartCAT. This way the radio will generate a perfect CW. the problem with this configuration is no sidetone (real from the radio or fake from SmartSDR) is generated in anyway, so you are blind (or deft, if you like). There is not any workaround, Flex must address this (not very hard...) somehow.

Now, on a total different topic... Is it possible to generate CW using the paddle? What I did is tricky but works. To do this you need a real Winkeyer, connected to the same computer where you run SmartSDR. Download from K1EL the WKremote utility and run 2 instances of it, one will be configured like the local client, connected to the real Winkeyer, the other one configured as a server connect to the 'virtual' Winkeyer exposed by SmartSDR. Your code from the paddle will be converted in ASCII text, passed from the first Winkeyer to the second, and transmitted by the radio. No latency, local sidetone. The suggestion is to run the local winkeyer with a slightly higher speed than the radio winkeyer to compensate for delay generated by the Winkeyer logic. I've asked K1EL to modify WKRemote the way we just need one for this job, maybe he will agree. A side note... SmartCAT can generate more than one 'virtual' Winkeyer, so you can have your logging software and the paddle working at same time.


73, Max
 

Tim VE6SH

Max. See VE6WZ’s work around https://youtu.be/MFCllprEel8 Tim VE6SH

N5NHJ

Tim, thank you for the suggestion. I don't want to have a computer at the remote site, though. This is why I purchased a Flex.

K9SO

Thanks Tim.

I'm sure this would work but I've been remoting on HF since the late 1980's and over the years I've used almost every method conceivable. I have one hard and fast rule: No PC in the operating loop of the remote station. My remote PCs have crashed countless times causing unrecoverable problems.

Perhaps I'm still gun shy from the days when Windows was more unstable (remember Windows 7?) but I still don't like to have to rely on a remote PC.

BTW, VE6WZ is slightly incorrect about how RemoteRig does the keying: they don't use the jitter buffer for anything other than the VoIP connection. They simply send out UDP packets with key down and key up information and then delay them for a period of time roughly equal to the RTT. If any packets are delayed (jitter) the packet delay buffer simply gives them time to get back in the proper timing order. 

Then they generate a local sidetone and mute any tone audio that might come back from the radio end. 

This technique works well even for high latency connections like mine (I remote from over 800 miles away). You might get an occasional lost UDP packet but that happens a very small percentage of the time and just hurts one or two dits out of thousands. 

The Maestro worked fairly well too and it  allowed me to get rid of the RemoteRig boxes in the keying loop. Everything worked fine until they broke something in the  SmartSDR V3.x releases. (known issue).

I've gone back to RemoteRig keying again since the Maestro - V3.x method of keying no longer works. That gives me local sidetone and good remote paddle keying without jumping through hoops or waiting to set up a remote PC.

The Maestro still works with SmartSDR V.2.4.9 or earlier, but I really would like to use 3.x for several reasons.

I don't know what needs fixing in V3.x, but I sure hope they get to the issue eventually. 

N5NHJ

Russ McIntyre K8AH

Hi MAX.
I just got this to work last night. It works as well as any situation you use a WinKeyer box.  What I mean is there is the side tone heard in the room and this can be an issue to others(wife) hearing the cw tone and also if you have headphones that block out the room noise it can also block the cw tone coming from the WinKeyer.

N5NHJ

Hi Russ,
The local winkeyer sidetone can be turn on and off, volume can be lowered, and the audio output can be connected to the PC.
I understand this is not an ideal situation, but if you want to use your paddle I don't see other options, unfortunately. I don't work for Flex, anything else should come from them...

K9SO

I ran a 33 ohm resistor from the emitter of Q1 in the Winkeyer to a 1/8" jack I mounted on the side. I can plug in powered speakers if I want high volume sidetone or run both the radio and keyer sidetone audio to this $24 mixer:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KGYAYQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Plug in your headphones and you're good to go. 

Russ McIntyre K8AH

Hi Max,
You are a funny guy  - turn off sidetone.  Sorry.....  it just struct me funny.  That's what started this thread no CW sidetone.  Anyway I digress.  You did say something else that caught my attention...  "the audio output can be connected to the PC".  What do you mean by that?  Can you actually run the WK side tone to the PC??  I looked but don't see how that is done.  Please elaborate.

N5NHJ

Russ, I hope you're enjoying I'm funny. You are complaining about the sidetone, the wife, the noise... than turn it of! Hi Hi...
You can just pull the audio out from the internal speaker as Fred says, and put it in the mic or line input of your computer. If you need more control and you don't like an hardware audio mixer, you can try a very powerful software one:
https://www.vb-audio.com/Voicemeeter/potato.htm

Russ McIntyre K8AH

I should not humor myself at your expense.  I hope you took it as pure jest and not seriously.
I have been struggling with remote cw for awhile.  It seems I am not alone.  I had given up until your suggestion came along.  It did not make sense to to have two WK when there is already one available in SmartSDR.  I had used N4PY to do this(Carl had it figured out) when I had my TS-480 remoted before getting my Flex.
I really appreciate the suggestion of using two instances of WK at the remote site.  It does actually work quite well.
I have been using CWX for DX work but I like a paddle for conversations or the occasional quick conversation.  I started using a paddle back in about 1971, so it still feels very natural to me as opposed to typing on a keyboard.
As far as the audio is concerned I probably won't try the PC route for now and wait for Flex to add cw sidetone for the virtual WK.( That way it( the sidetone )is in my headphones and solves the wife issue and the noise cancelling headphone issue.
Russ  

N5NHJ

Russ, no problems at al!!! I'm an easy going person.
I'm happy the TwinWKremote solution worked out well for you, I do like the paddle as well, keyboard is not for CW.

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP

Remote CW sidetone is possible!
Hi all, since 10 years I run a remote contest station with no PC (to increase up time). I have been using the remote rig boxes BUT Matt NQ6N, described a local Winkeyer solution with Flex API:s that with a high propability will provide both local CW sidetone ( from a physical winkeyer or paddle) and local PC keying N1MM. See here: https://groups.io/g/RemoteKeyerInterface.
It works for pure local CW keying of a remote Flexradio and now "we" only need to test the local PC keying. I have not had the time to do it but I do not see any problems getting it to work.
So there is an acceptable potential solution just around the corner till Flex works it out.
73 Kari SM0HRP
http://remotedxandcontestblog.sm0hrp.se/

K9SO

Thanks for that information Kari. I've joined the group so that I may watch for the progress. I'm sure it will not be hard to find beta testers.

73,
Fred
K9SO

Mark Davis

The "Remote Keyer Interface" solution has undergone a good deal of development since this thread started. It offers -free- remote CW operation, with a keyer (or straight key) interfaced to the PC through a very simple interface to a PC Serial Port (built-in or a USB-to-Serial adaptor).

Details at https://groups.io/g/RemoteKeyerInterface.

Side-Tone at your remote operating site can come from your PC or from the keyer. No Maestro required.

Mark - AD7EF

K9SO

It's too bad that we have to do work-arounds like this when the 3.x software is supposed to work... and Flex knows it doesn't work.

It's been over a year now without any solution. I've paid for 3.x and can't use it.

...just an ignored CW operator,

Fred

K9SO

N5NHJ

Agreed, and just generating a 'fake', 'local' pitch on the computer running SmartSDR following the CW transmission would be a simple starting point to alleviate the issue. Maybe we are missing some parts here that make this dramatically complicated to be added...

K9SO

Since I use a Maestro, the local sidetone is not my issue. The issue is that beyond 2.4.9 software, there are keying errors on higher latency remote CW connections (>50mS RTT). They keying method we're talking about in this thread probably fixes the keying errors too ... but I shouldn't have to do that because of a FlexRadio software bug in versions above 3.x

My local Maestro sidetone sounds like it's sending properly but the actual transmissions being keyed at the transmitter end are distorted with missing dits or dahs turning into dits, etc.

Makes it kind of hard to copy me.

So I've been stuck on 2.4.9 even though Flex charges good money for 3.x versions that have had known issues for well over a year.

Yes, it would be nice to have local sidetone when keying via a PC, but that's a feature addition, not a bug fix. I'm complaining about a KNOWN software bug that they haven't been too eager to fix.

K1ESE

It has been very frustrating. I did go to 2.4.10 and that works just as well without the possible SD card problem. The help desk said go to 2.4.10 but said anything higher in version 2 or version 3 will have the problem you describe.

This bug has not been addressed for a year or more with no help on the horizon. I bought Version 3 but can't use it for CW.

Asher - K0AU

Hard to believe it's five years since I first commented on this thread

Flex 6700 / SSDR 3.1.12.51 / Maestro (sometimes)

Contest season is about to start again. For contesting I use N1MM+. For CW I use the internal Winkeyer on a CAT COM port. I run the radio LAN remote with 1ms of reported RTT.

Why is there still no sidetone on PC Audio? This is a well-documented use case by now. My workaround is I'm still using a pair of RemoteRig boxes to carry audio and local keying.

Two missing features for CW contesting:

1. There have been so many requests to carry CW sidetone on the PC Audio channel that it seems reasonable to add it. Sure there are situations where it won't work very well, but there are also situations like my N1MM+ example where sidetone is essential. I need to know what I'm sending and when the transmission is over. I don't care about monitoring my transmit waveform, but I need to know what symbols I'm sending. I feel like there's a philosophical blockage here, and it's time for a customer-oriented product manager to step in and put the feature on the roadmap
2. Please add audio and keying to Maestro in SmartControl mode. That way I can still run SSDR + N1MM+ on the computer, use the knobs on the Maestro and finally take the Remote Rig out of the configuration. It would be really nice to get the same sidetone for WinKeyer keying and local paddle keying, but the big picture is it removes another pair of A/D and D/A conversions in the signal path. It harmonizes audio/PTT/paddle connectivity between SmartControl and other Maestro modes. My goal in contest configuration is to remove all nonessential hardware and software since each element is another potential failure point or source of unpredictable interactions.

Is there a working group somewhere that Flex relies on for contest configuration? I'd sure like to see what others are doing to address LAN and SmartLink remote for CW contest operation.

BD8CS

I have a Webcamera return the sidetone,but the delay time is about 1500ms. And I want to try use IP broadcast board return the all sound from flexradio.

Mike-VA3MW

If latency is critical, you want to make sure you keep the audio off Windows as the Windows audio subsystems are really latent. They just don't handle the audio with the same priority that the MAC does.

For CW contesting, I actually don't listen to the CW that N1MM (or you logging program) is sending. I got used to it years ago and trusted N1MM to send correctly. I have used a 2nd Slice to monitor the CW if I thought it was required.

We are aware of this limitation and the concerns that go with it.

GraymanPOTA

> @"Asher - K0AU" said:
> Hard to believe it's five years since I first commented on this thread
> Flex 6700 / SSDR 3.1.12.51 / Maestro (sometimes)
> Contest season is about to start again. For contesting I use N1MM+. For CW I use the internal Winkeyer on a CAT COM port. I run the radio LAN remote with 1ms of reported RTT.
> Why is there still no sidetone on PC Audio? This is a well-documented use case by now. My workaround is I'm still using a pair of RemoteRig boxes to carry audio and local keying.
> Two missing features for CW contesting:
> There have been so many requests to carry CW sidetone on the PC Audio channel that it seems reasonable to add it. Sure there are situations where it won't work very well, but there are also situations like my N1MM+ example where sidetone is essential. I need to know what I'm sending and when the transmission is over. I don't care about monitoring my transmit waveform, but I need to know what symbols I'm sending. I feel like there's a philosophical blockage here, and it's time for a customer-oriented product manager to step in and put the feature on the roadmap
> Please add audio and keying to Maestro in SmartControl mode. That way I can still run SSDR + N1MM+ on the computer, use the knobs on the Maestro and finally take the Remote Rig out of the configuration. It would be really nice to get the same sidetone for WinKeyer keying and local paddle keying, but the big picture is it removes another pair of A/D and D/A conversions in the signal path. It harmonizes audio/PTT/paddle connectivity between SmartControl and other Maestro modes. My goal in contest configuration is to remove all nonessential hardware and software since each element is another potential failure point or source of unpredictable interactions.
> Is there a working group somewhere that Flex relies on for contest configuration? I'd sure like to see what others are doing to address LAN and SmartLink remote for CW contest operation.

@"Asher - K0AU" it has been an additional 3 years since you commented about commenting on this thread 5 years earlier. So 8 years have gone by and it is still not available. So there is that.

Asher - K0AU

When Flex rewrote the SSDR audio drivers to use the Windows Low Latency Audio subsystem, I thought "Finally they have the tools to fix the sidetone problem."

Still no joy and Mike's comment about "trusting N1MM+ to send correctly" is great, except who among us has never pressed the wrong function key during the graveyard shift? I monitor what N1MM+ is sending and correct myself when I make a mistake. I still need a paddle for backup because sometimes we all need to send something that's not programmed in a macro.

Between all the outage problems with SmartLink and the need for a separate VPN to support remote control for antennas, rotators - even PGXL and AG - it would be great if Flex showed us how they envision a remote contest station should be configured.

I run LAN remote with latencies in the sub millisecond range and it's great because all the RF and fan noise are in the garage while I'm comfortably in the house. When I installed my RemoteRig boxes ten years ago with Flex v1 software I thought they'd be gone soon. When I got a Maestro I thought it would eliminate the Remote Rig boxes, but it wouldn't carry audio and keying when it ran in SmartControl mode and I much prefer my two 4K screens to the the tiny PanAdapter on a Maestro. I sold the Maestro and RemoteRig is still here.

I stick with Flex and just traded my 6700 for a 6600 because I think their trouble desk is extremely good and SSDR is better than what I've seen with other mainstream radios. But that won't always be true.

Flex: we're ready for V4 software that improves remote support for contesting! We're ready for some more features in that powerful DSP, like native CW skimmer and digital decodes. We're ready for a button to promote any slice to "slice A" so the loggers know what's going on.

Neil D Friedman N3DF

Yeah, we’re ready for them, provided they are fully accessible from a Maestro and the front of an “M” radio.

VE6WZ

I gave up on this years ago.

I quote Mike VA3MW: "We are aware of this limitation and the concerns that go with it."

Well sorry Mike, I really don't believe thats true.

But, if it IS true, and Flex really "is are aware of this limitation and the concerns that go with it", then the fact that its been 8 years and Flex has done nothing......well, what does that mean exactly? Hmmmmm.

Steve, ve6wz

Asher - K0AU

I suspect those of us who care have workarounds. None of them are perfect.

Mine is 85% because with my RemoteRig and using the Virtual Winkeyer I get N1MM+ sidetone from the radio and paddle sidetone from the local RemoteRig. Which makes it slightly hard to manage audio levels.

I've built out a VPN and overlay infrastructure to support the rest of the station. Most of it works well enough and when I'm contesting I can always walk out to the garage and power cycle the rack if it all gets wedged. If it was a 100 mile drive I'd invest a lot more time in hardening management and control.

And agree that Flex is unlikely to change things until a few of their execs take up CW contesting or a competitor shows something better.

Dan Trainor

I don't believe Flex puts CW functionality high on bug priority list. I believe it is at the very bottom. I think they stopped working on it several years ago, maybe longer. For CW contest operation this is problematic and for remote operation weather contest or just rag chewing, it is not close to acceptable even with lower latency connections. There are certain modes such as CW that Flex will phase out in terms of fixes and enhancements, so you need to put your own efforts into creative workarounds from now on... de WA1QZX

GraymanPOTA

> @"Asher - K0AU" said:
> I suspect those of us who care have workarounds. None of them are perfect.
> Mine is 85% because with my RemoteRig and using the Virtual Winkeyer I get N1MM+ sidetone from the radio and paddle sidetone from the local RemoteRig. Which makes it slightly hard to manage audio levels.
> I've built out a VPN and overlay infrastructure to support the rest of the station. Most of it works well enough and when I'm contesting I can always walk out to the garage and power cycle the rack if it all gets wedged. If it was a 100 mile drive I'd invest a lot more time in hardening management and control.
> And agree that Flex is unlikely to change things until a few of their execs take up CW contesting or a competitor shows something better.

You said it, "I suspect those of us who care have workarounds. None of them are perfect." My frustration is that Flexradio, for whatever reason, is reluctance to blend physically connected devices with SmartSDR, IE physical PTT switches and CW keys directly with SmartSDR. Their default answer is to jerry-rig some over complicated, multi element solution to address a simple issue. Creating over complication and multiple points of failure is not innovation, especially when I am sitting right next to the radio. My very over complicated work around solution to using a Shure mic connected to my computer with a PTT switch. Stream Deck or Stream Deck Pedal --> local Plug-In --> Loopback Network --> Slice Master --> Local Network --> Radio. All of that instead of a simple analog PTT switch connected to the back of the radio and allow me whatever input source I choose. Now I am diving in to this whole sidetone debacle.