Strange new 8600 NR behavior

n8wrl

Hi all!

I've been playing with my new 8600 and I notice some differences from the 6600 I used to have. I thought I'd post a problem I'm having here to see if it's worth submitting a ticket.

I'm running SmartSDR 3.8.20 on a Windows 11 machine. I'm on 75m phone right now in LSB mode with ANF engaged.

The first thing I notice is, if I change modes and then change back, most of my DSP settings are forgotten. That is, if i have NB, NR, and/or ANF engaged in LSB mode, when I switch to USB and then back to LSB, those NB, NR, and ANF are OFF and levels set to 0.

The next thing is the problem.

During a QSO I engaged NR and took my turn. After unkeying, there was no audio. I couldn't figure out what was wrong - nothing was muted, there was just no audio. Silence. I could see the others talking on the panadapter but I couldn't hear anything. With some random clicking I happened to hit NR to turn it off, and the audio came back! Turn NR on, audio mutes, Turn it off, audio comes back. I finished the roundtable with NR off so I could hear everyone.

After we all signed, I played some more, hoping to reproduce the problem. As you'd expect, I couldn't. I switched modes again and came back to LSB. NR works as expected now. It's been more than an hour and it's working.

Am I nuts? Can anyone else make this happen?

73

-Brian n8wrl

KD0RC

Hi Brian, I think that I would do a profile export, then do a factory reset followed by a profile import. It sounds like you tripped over some odd situation that caused the issue. The factory reset should help to clear up everything and make the issue less likely to happen again.

If it recurs, submit a help desk ticket.

n8wrl

Thank you Len! Although the radio has been on the air for less than 2 hours and presumabely came "factory reset" I'm planning a big shack reorg so I'll do that.

Thanks again, 73, and Merry Christmas!

G2YTpeter

Hi Brian,

I am very interested to read this. I don’t think you are nuts! I have EXACTLY the same NR issue with my new 8600… I could use the NR fine for quite some time without any problems at all (up to 4 hours of perfect operation), then suddenly, un-key the TX and audio in my headset disappeared. Cured temporarily by closing the Slice, then re-opening it. If I didn’t re-engage the NR when opening a new slice the audio disappearing didn’t re-occur. Re-engage the NR and after unkeying the audio disappeared again. This happened about a dozen times… but (frustratingly) not every time.

Leaving the NR off seems to be a sure way to stop loss of audio when un-keying. Like you stated, the waterfall and meter continues to run - just no audio.

I opened a help ticket with Flex but Tim said that they had never heard of it before. That sounds to not be the case now (or at least if you open a ticket!). I can copy you the dialogue between Tim and myself if it helps. If you raise a help desk ticket, please mention to Tim that I have the same problem… he will be aware of it, so it’s no longer unique.

I have not noticed the loss of modes that you experienced, but I have only used my 8600 on USB so far. Now my 8600 is out of line and replaced with my old 6400 as I am away from home for 4 weeks and want to operate remote.

Particularly interested to hear that you are using Windows, because I was starting to lean towards thinking it might be a Mac issue (I am using SmartSDR for Mac), but this can’t be the case. It’s got to be the radio, or something to do with the LAN comms.

Regards and Seasons Greetings,

Peter

G2YT

n8wrl

Thank you for your post, Peter - I just submitted a ticket. I am going to try a factory reset as Len suggests as I reorganize my shack and have to move the radio anyway.

Also, as I noted in my ticket, the only thing I've changed on this radio is install SmartSDR on Windows and import my 6600 profiles. After the reset I'm going to try it with the stock hand mic w/o importing profiles to see if that makes a diffeence. It might be difficult to pin down since I've been operating all evening without any trouble. Not much TX, but no trouble today.

73

-Brian n8wrl

G2YTpeter

Hi Brian, I have posted a reply to Ed… I see that you had left a post there too. Just in case you didn’t see it I have copied it below…

Hi Brian and Ed, 

It looks as though we have the same or identical issue. I opened a Help Desk ticket when this first happened and it was closed on 19th December, really because I had taken my 8600 off the desk and replaced it with my old 6400M because I am away from home for 4 weeks and wanted to be able to operate Remote reliably. I could no longer reproduce the problem as its obviously intermittent. At the time I raised the issue I had put the following info on a request to the Help Desk….

Dear Tim,

Since I last heard from you I believe that I have found what triggers the continuing drop-out of audio when switching from TX to RX with the 8600. It does not happen every time I un-key the PTT, but when the Noise Reduction is turned off I have not been able to get a single instance of it happening. However, when I am using Noise Reduction… particularly during a prolonged period of use (I think this might be significant - is a buffer getting full?) I can get it to drop audio every single time I un-key the PTT from a SSB transmission. By huge contrast, If I turn the NR off it never happens at all. I assume that this is probably a strong indication of what is causing it.
It definitely is not loss of RX because the waterfall and meter continues to run. I have to close the slice, open another one to resume RX. I would comment that on one single occasion (maybe the very first time I saw it) I am pretty sure that the waterfall and metering stopped too, but now it is always just the audio on the slice with everything else fine.

…does this sound familiar?

I will not be able to reproduce this until near the end of January when I will be home, but in the meantime, It seems that we have found a bug. 

Regards,

Peter

G2YT

n8wrl

Thanks Peter!

I just tried it on 20m and I only had to wait about 2 minutes. Here's what I did:

1. Tune to 14.255 - W2A/5 activation
2. Engage NR and listen for a while
3. When the pile cleared, I pressed PTT and called
4. When I released PTT there was no audio
5. Disabled NR and the audio came right back.

G2YTpeter

Hi Brian, terrific. Thanks for this confirmation.

Obviously the Flex Help Desk will be closed at the moment, but I assume you will forward this information to Tim Ellison. It certainly sounds like some sort of bug in the 8000. This information should give the guys at Flex a pointer as to where to start looking for it.

I Also should have commented before that I did not copy my profiles that I was using with the 6400M… I created a couple of new ones.

Should also make Ed aware of this issue with his 8400.

I don’t know how you feel about this issue in regard to the problem… the ‘problem’ being that these (rather costly) radios are not performing as expected. My feeling is that in buying a new product, the first up-takers are the ones most likely to come across these sort of issues. I used to be in electronics manufacturing myself, and had my fair share of similar problems. I have no hard feelings toward Flex Radio at this time. Their reputation with me hangs on how they deal with the problem. I should also state that other than this irritating issue (and a problem with WAN connection reliability which is 99% sure a router issue- so nothing to do with them) I am delighted with the 8600. It has a noticeably nicer receiver than my old 6400 and I was getting unsolicited reports from guys that I know well that it sounds significantly better. It will be interesting to see some third party reviews.

Seasons greetings,

Peter

G2YT

n8wrl

Hi Peter!

I copied everything here on my ticket details. I would suggest you make it clear you didn't copy a 6x00 profile to your radio, because I did, and your experience likley rules out imported profiles as the culprit.

I too was concerned about being an early adopter for the new model. I have long owned Yaesu radios and I'm really hoping that Flex will use the additional computation muscle of the 8x00 do implement more filtering capabilities like my Yaesu's had. I sold an FTdx5000 which was the best most capable receiver I have ever owned. For me the Flex panadaptor is the game changer, and I'm hoping they'll be able to tackle some of the advanced filtering features of the '5000. I've communicated those details to them.

I expect we'll hear something from Flex next week!

73 and happy Holiday

-Brian n8wrl

G2YTpeter

Hi Brian,

My Help ticket is actually closed now because I have taken the 8600 off the bench and replaced it with the 6400 until I am home. I will be putting it back near the end of January, and when the issue raises itself again, I will open another ticket if it’s still there by then. Flex will very obviously be aware of it with both you and Ed KA9EES having what seems to be the same with his 8400. I'm really pleased that my issue clearly isn't the only case, because it means that it will get sorted. Thanks to this forum!

As far as being an early adopter, at least with these radios, overwhelmingly most probable issues can be fixed with firmware updates. Just wondering how you have found the 8600 compared to the 6600 in other respects? My other main HF radio is an IC7851 which is a fabulous radio. Must be the last of the 'flagship' HF radios to be based on superhet tech… from there on they have all been SDR. Theres something in me that this fact appeals to. What is very pleasing is that with me duplicating the profiles that I used on my 6400M (but not importing them), I am having old friends tell me that the 8600 sounds indistinguishable from the Icom. Frankly, Flex should take that as high praise because I’m only ever using the Flex with Mac SmartSDR and Apple AirPods Max as a headset which provides a relatively tenuous Bluetooth connection.

Happy holidays to you too. I look forward to hearing that there is a firmware update to fix it!

Kind regards,

Peter

G2YT

Trucker

I wonder if the problem could be the new all voice mode Squelch being engaged and causing this problem? I might be completely off base. But, it could be an unexpected interaction between the two. I am not home to see if my 6600M will do this. And I have used the Squelch a few times and it does work fairly well. Just a bit sensitive at times.

James

WD5GWY

G2YTpeter

James (and Brian N8WRL), 

Its not the Squelch. Flex (Tim Ellison) acknowledged to me on 17th December that this is now categorised as a “known software defect” and have allocated a fault number to it which is ’SMART-10697’. I would imagine that with pressure on Flex Radio resources to implement APD and no doubt other things, they have their hands very full at the minute and will be prioritising which software fixes to work or incorporate first.

I have been told by Tim at the Flex Help Desk that it is most likely a 'Race Condition', which effectively means that some calculations in the firmware are not adding up all the time. I don't pretend to be an expert on these issues, but a few minutes checking the internet for what this term means seems to indicate that they can be difficult to track down.

Meantime my new 8600, which is otherwise superb, is off the desk.😩

Regards,

Peter

G2YT

Trucker

Peter, thanks for sharing what you found out. There was a problem with the software a few years ago that could cause a "race condition " and cause unexpected problems. It didn't effect everyone. But, it was frustrating for those that it did effect. ( I was one of them) Flex Radio did get it figured out. And I have not experienced the same problem anymore. Hopefully, they will get this sorted soon.

James

WD5GWY