TGXL tuning solution memory

Les Brown

I received my TGXL and have been setting it up. I have questions about the tuning memory. I understand that you can store up to 20 tuning solutions per band. My questions are:

1) What happens when you try to store a 21st solution on a band? Does it remove the oldest solution or does it remove the solution at the closest frequency to the new 21st solution?

2) How can you find out how many tuning solutions you have stored for a given band?

3) Is it possible to delete the tuning solutions for a given band, or a given frequency?

73, Les VE3NNT

Les Brown

Sorry, the discussion should be titled "TGXL tuning solution memory"

David Decoons, wo2x

Hi Les,

Which model Tuner Genius? SO2R or 1x3?

The 1x3 supports up to ten memories per band up to three antennas per band. You set which antenna ports are active on each band.

The SO2R version when coupled with the Antenna Genius products will allow up to 10 tuning memories per antenna / per band with up to 4 antennas with tuning memories per band.

I do not know when you try tuning the 11th memory if it overwrites the first memory or closest.

you do not need to use all ten tuning memories for each antenna, depending on the antenna’s SWR. If an antenna has a range where the SWR is fairly resonant (under 1.3:1 for example) you can have the tuner automatically go into bypass for that range, therefore you do not need as many tuning memories. Also for antennas that are fairly broad banded you may only need 4 or so memories.

Here is an example of how I use the tuner on my antenna I use on 80 meters. It is not resonant anyplace on the band. Since 80 meters is 5 MHz wide I used all ten memories for that antenna. I started at 3.525 and tuned every 50 kHz (3.525, 3.725, 3.625, etc) all the way up to 3.975 MHz. That is ten memories. Now wherever I go in the band SWR is below 1.4:1.

For my 5 band Yagi I programmed portions of the band to bypass the tuner for ranges below 1.3:1 SWR. On 12 and 17 meters I used two tuning memories since the bands are small.

You do not need to tune every 10 kHz or 20 kHz like other tuner manufacturers suggest.

To clear the tuning memories completely, you can reset the tuner, which also resets the configuration. Make sure to document your settings when you set it up, but it is straightforward to configure if you do reset it. To reset the tuner, turn off the power switch on back of the tuner. Hold the Operate/Standby button on front panel and turn on the power switch. Continue to hold the button until the front panel (or app) shows Config Reset. Then go back in and configure the tuner and retrain the tuning memories.

73

Dave wo2x

Les Brown

Hi Dave,

I have the SO2R version. According to the preliminary manual, clause 6.3.1.4, "Up to 20 solutions, keyed by frequency can be stored for each band".

In clause 5 of the preliminary manual, the following messages are listed: Manual Tuning, Tuning Saved, Memory Cleared, and Config Reset. I am thinking that the message 'config reset' would apply if I do the reset procedure you mention. What about 'memory cleared? It seems that there must be a way to clear the stored tuning solutions.

I understand the tuner bypass for a resonant antenna. For me, the issue is really only with my 80m Optibeam Yagi that uses relays to resonate in 4 different band segments. It seems that you can only pick 1 segment to bypass. I don't know of a way to make the Tuner Genius understand that it is like 4 different antennas for the band, so I'm stuck with needing tuning solutions across a wide frequency range. I did manage it with 20 tuning solutions, I believe.

But my 3 questions still apply. Likely someone at Flex or 4O3A will need to answer them. Thanks for your input on this and thanks for helping me with my node-red issues.

David Decoons, wo2x

that was a preliminary manual. I was told it is 10 memory tuning solutions per antenna per band.

I have an idea that might help you. What are the four segments for your 80 meter antenna? In other words for each relay what is the start and end frequency and what is the SWR at edge of each segment?

you could use Node Red on a Raspberry Pi to switch the relays to change tuning on the antenna then maybe two to three tuning points in each segment can keep SWR under 1.4:1

Something worth discussing as the Tuner Genius is excellent and maybe that could work for tour station

you can contact me direct if you like

73 Dave wo2x

David Decoons, wo2x

To confirm it is 10

memories per antenna per band with

maximum of four antennas per band with tuning solutions. The exception is 160 meters which allows 20 memories per antenna.

the Config Reset is the only way to clear memories at this time That may change in the future.

73 Dave wo2x

Les Brown

Dave,

Thanks again for the info. For now, I guess the quickest way for me to clear the memories is to do a factory reset. I did a sweep of the SWR for all of my antennas to figure out bypass bands. Now that I know it is 10 memories per antenna per band, I'll redo my tuning solutions. I was way too aggressive the first time, setting the tuning target to SWR = 1.1. Some of my resonant antennas don't get below 1.3 or even 1.5, so I needed to redo them anyway.

I'm having another problem with my PC with the Flex software at the moment that I need to figure out. The display is getting randomly mangled with blown up font sizes or no refresh of the display. I'm not sure if this is related to recent windows updates or the installation of node-red. It only happens with Flex software windows.

After I sort that out, I'll talk to you about using node-red to select tuning for my 80m antenna. I ordered a Raspberry PI 4, which should arrive Monday. I decided it best not to load up my PC with anything more than necessary, and I'm still learning the hard way to do regular backups.

73, Les VE3NNT

David Decoons, wo2x

Ok, did you ever have version 3.2.31 installed in tour radio? In the release notes it mentions possible radio database corruption with that version. If you have issues due to the database corruption with 3.2.31 there is a procedure in the release notes to reset the radio and restore profiles from prior to 3.2.31.

73

Dave wo2x

Les Brown

No, I went from v3.1.12 to 3.2.34 and then 3.2 39. It's a strange display update issue. I submitted a ticket with a bunch of screen captures to see what they think.

73, Les VE3NNT

David Decoons, wo2x

Ok, Help Desk at this point is best way to go. Hopefully something easy.

73

Dave wo2x

Mike-VA3MW

Les

Dave, WO2X is an Alpha Team member and is well versed on all things Flex, including internals. At the moment, he is our leading expert for the TGXL and he knows where to escalate as required.

If you are having a problem with the TGXL, do not hesitate to open a support case. Keep in mind that the TGXL firmware is under daily development as well.

73

W2PP

If the TGXL FW changes frequently. Where do we go for updates?

Peter

Mike-VA3MW

They will be released once Alpha and QA Testing is completed. We will notify you when this happens.

W2PP

Ok understand.

regarding the PGXL radio interface I read the TGXL FW contains a complete rewrite and the new interface works well. I’m interested in knowing if this will be adopted for the PGXL?

if the FW will be but obviously isn’t available now can the TGXL drive the PGXL to the correct frequency?

thx

Peter

David Decoons, wo2x

Hi Peter,

Sorry for the delay, I was up at ARRL HQ yesterday which made for a long day with travel.

What exactly are you asking when you state "can the TG XL drive the PG XL to the correct frequency?" Both the PG XL and TG XL get interfaced to the radio for frequency and band info. The tuner does not send band info to the amp. What is your station configuration with radios?

73

Dave wo2x

W2PP

Ok you answered my question.

I am driving the PGXL with two Icom radios. 7610 and 7851. The Icom CAT data isn’t read properly by the PGXL. I’ve been through the help desk. Elsewhere up here someone told me the radio interface was completely rewritten for the TGXL. I’m hoping that will be ported over to the PGXL FW.

I’ll have my TGXL tomorrow and am looking forward to seeing it correctly follow the radios

again you answered my question about how the TGXL and PGXL work together so thanks for that

Peter

David Decoons, wo2x

You can change the radio's CI-V address to work with the PG XL. You can now use Icom 7000, 7800, or 775 CI-V address.

The TG XL will accept any CI-V address.

73

Dave wo2x

Butch

Something I'd like to see in some future firmware upgrade. When frequency memories are saved in the TG-XL, small indicators show up on the SmartSDR screen corresponding to each saved memory; perhaps color coded for Ant 1, 2, 3 for the 1x3 model, and A and B on the SO2R model.

Butch KF4HR

Mike-VA3MW

I have to ask this question, just to understand the thought here.

Can you elaborate on why this feature would be required? What advantage would be gained? Would it be just a ‘nice to have’?

(I’m trying to ask in a curious nice tone :) ).

73, Mike

Butch

Let's face it Mike, the entire TG-XL is just a "nice to have" don't you think? :D

I think it would be a very valuable feature if the TG-XL Utility could maintain a reviewed list of frequency solutions (per band), as they are created. And better yet a user modifiable list, so tuning solutions could be set up, reviewed, and uploaded as needed.

As things currently are, TG-XL users probably are not stopping to make notes as to where they create tuning solutions, so without transmitting and watching the VSWR, the only way to tell where the tuning solution memories are is to sweep a receiver slice across each band and listen for the relay changes.

Butch KF4HR

Mike-VA3MW

Ham radio is 'nice to have'! :)

I still don't understand or is the reason to do this would be for manual adjustment? The TGXL is so fast at tuning even without a memory.

For me, for any automatic tuner I have owned, or even a radio with an internal tuner, I always always engage the tune button when I change bands just to make the right antenna was selected. If the SWR is infinite, I pause and check. This is even more important if I am using an amplifier even though all Amp today have amazing high SWR protection as is every HF radio. Just last week, I moved to 80M in the middle of the afternoon and the band sounded pretty quiet, as it can be. I touched the tune button on the 6600 and boom.. infinite SWR. It turns out that the DC power to the antenna switch as off.

Anyway, I still don't have enough of a reason to pass this on to engineering as a must have. I'll move this the the New Ideas part of the community.

73

John K3MA

I have found many times in the past when using the HF-Auto and AT-Auto that it was very useful for problem solving to know what the actual C and L setting were for each tuning frequency.

I use a 80 M Doublet fed with about 100 ft of 450 ohm open window line into a 1:1 balun and 20 ft of coax. I use this antenna on 80, 40 and 30M as the primary antenna. Furthermore given my very heavily treed lot with a HOA that requires me to run the wire thru the trees often thing change especially after wind events.

If I try to run the TGXL on 40M in auto I get the expected greater than 10:1 SWR message and it does not find a tuning solution. Using Manual I am easily able to get a tuning solution. I then use those C and L values as a starting point for finding the manual tuning solution for the next tuning frequency span. Otherwise if I try Auto again it just get the 10:1 SWR message.

I write the values of L and C down along with the date and frequency for future reference. With the information I have been able to trouble shot in the past the following issues. Loose coax connector on the back of the tuner, feedline movement and tangled in the trees, bad balun, water in coax or connector.

Sure I could have found them by other means but it all started with the question on why has the L and C changed from a previously memorized tuning solution. With out the list of actual L and C values and only using Auto I might be as tuned in to what changed.

Having the list available to be viewed on the TGXL app and potentially being able to print it out would be nice to have for my station antennas.

John K3MA

David Decoons, wo2x

John,

you have my Node Red Tuner Genius flow. It shows the C1, L, and C2 values.

Dave wo2x

Les Brown

I'll give you my reasons for wanting to see the tuning solutions and to be able to set new ones independently. When I got my TGXL, I went through all of the bands and set up tuning solutions as needed. I had to write the frequencies down on a piece of paper in case I needed to redo any of them. Suppose I need to adjust the tuning solutions for one band. As I understand, the only way to clear the tuning memories is a factory reset, then you need to redo the tuning solutions for all bands. It's difficult to know how many of the allowed 10 tuning solutions per band have been used, and I have no idea what happens if you try to store an 11th tuning solution, or try to just redo all of the tuning solutions for a given band. The only way to know what your current tuning solutions are is to sweep the band and note when they change. You then know at what frequencies the tuning solutions were saved since they change at the mid-point between them. It would be so good to have the ability to reset the saved solutions on a band per band basis, and it would be nice to see on a configuration page the set of tuning solutions you currently have so you would know at what frequency to either add a new one or redo an existing one.

73, Les VE3NNT

Les Brown

In response to Mike's post on August 3, I'll add:

When there has been a weather change, I might want to redo the stored tuning solutions. I would do this before a major contest. During the contest, I don't have time to hit a tune button every time I change bands, and certainly running SO2R that wouldn't work. So, I rely on the stored tuning solutions.

Les Brown

I haven't seen any comments recently on this topic.

Last night, I had to redo the tuning for my 40m antenna. I don't have a record of what frequencies I had performed the last tuning at. I picked a frequency that had a bad SWR and hit tune. Then I swept the band around the tune frequency and saw that the tuning solution changed just a couple of kHz from where I had just tuned. The SWR was very bad just beyond this frequency. What does it mean? Some previous tune frequency memory was impacting the desired result. After trying to fix the SWR at a couple more frequencies, I swept the entire 40m band to see how many tuning solutions I had and at what frequencies they were changing. I actually had 15 tuning solutions (I wrote them down). I thought that the maximum was 10! Later, after further tuning across the band, I had only 9 and could not add a 10th.

Here is my summary of what is wrong and needs to be fixed or clarified.

1) Currently, the only way to wipe the tuning solution memories is to reset the TGXL, which wipes out the tuning solutions for all bands/all antennas. There should be a way to clear the tuning solution memories for a single band/antenna to allow you to re-tune the band for the antenna!

2) Currently, you have no clue at which frequencies you have stored tuning solutions, or how many tuning solutions you have stored. There should be a configuration window that displays the frequency and L-C-L values stored at that frequency for all of the tuning solutions. Then, you should be able to delete them one by one to allow you to adjust the tune frequency and perform another tune. At the moment, we are just shooting in the dark.

3) There should be better documentation on how the tuning solutions are managed. After storing the maximum 10 solutions, what happens when you try to add an 11th one? Is one of the others deleted? Does it replace the nearest frequency's tuning solution? At what frequency does the TGXL switch values, exactly half way between 2 tuning frequencies?

I hope that this post will stimulate enough discussion to convince Mike to act, to get the Engineering team to do something. Mike's solution of just hitting tune every time he changes band or frequency just doesn't cut it in the heat of a contest.

I'm sorry if my post comes across as too critical. It's not my intention. I love my TGXL. I just want some action to address its deficiencies.

73, Les VE3NNT

Al_NN4ZZ

@Mike va3mw & Flex Team

For some reason this idea doesn't have a voting block. I see that is was moved to the idea category...maybe related???

Regards, Al / NN4ZZ

al (at) nn4zz (dot) com

6700 Win10 SSDR V2.4.10

Al_NN4ZZ

Update 28-Oct-2021 -- I got some feedback from Marko, the software developer at 4o3a on this idea. It is not currently planned but he explained why it is probably not needed.

More here: https://groups.io/g/FlexRadioSmartSDR/message/11755

Regards, Al / NN4ZZ

al (at) nn4zz (dot) com

6700 Win10 SSDR V2.4.10

Les Brown

Hi Al,

Thanks for the follow-up. I read your link, but I don't find any explanation about why better control/indication of tuning solutions isn't needed. Maybe I should try to contact Marko directly to explain better what I consider as shortcomings.

73, Les VE3NNT

Al_NN4ZZ

Hi Les,

My main reason for asking about the solutions list was a concern that I could create gaps when creating new solutions that exceeded the maximum number (20) for a band. Marko explained how that wouldn’t create any gaps.

Marko was very good about giving feedback so let us know if you learn anything new.

73, Al / NN4ZZ

Les Brown

Hi again Al,

Since my last message, I went directly to the groups.io SmartSDR site and found your summary from your discussions with Marko. It was quite helpful in answering some of my questions. I just signed up to the group, as you probably know since you are probably the moderator who approved my registration :)

I'll play some more with my tuning solutions with this knowledge in mind. At one point, I think I had a situation where I had 3 tuning solutions within a few kHz of each other that was causing me problems with high SWR.

73, Les VE3NNT