Undervoltage/powerpole issue

Dan KG0AQ

I have had several undervoltage issues in the past few weeks. I changed out my power supply and the problem still existed. I changed out the cable with new power poles and the problem still exists. I "rigged" up several types of strain reliefs and the problem still exists. 

My power pole connection to the radio is anything but firm and tight. I can move the power pole up, down a great deal and slightly sideways. Up and down a lot CAN'T be good for current and voltage stability.

I finally caught it in an undervoltage situation before the radio dumped and put inward pressure on the power poles. The undervoltage problem went away immediately! I can't hold the power poles in forever. hi

I have read the power pole threads here. I saw the cutout pic of the "spring" in the power poles. Maybe my spring has apparently sprung. hi hi   

Is the problem with power poles always with the female connector? It appears the male power pole inside the flex is just a spade. How about the power pole housing itself? I have not abused the housing at all and it looks as new.

I'm in the commercial and industrial electronics business where everything is done with wire nuts, **** type terminal strips, copper clamps, soldered connections or molex type plugs. I have never seen a power pole in a house, building or large plant for a life safety circuit. Are they used solely for RF based applications? I really don't see the attraction other than convenience.

KC2QMA_John

This is what the power connector should be.
https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/products/powercon/powercon-32-a

K9DUR

Dan, the Anderson PowerPole connectors are hermaphroditic -- there is no "male" or "female" connector.  Take 2 connectors, rotate one 180 deg with respect to the other, & they will plug together.

These connectors are in wide-spread use among the amateur radio community due to their convenience & ease of installation.  Also, you only have to stock one type of connector. -- 73, Ray, K9DUR

Stan VA7NF

I found on our club 6600 that the power-pole was quite loose; it would pull out when moved on the rack.
Increasing the contact pressure (bending both pins) fixed the problem.  It seems the batch of PP connectors FRS used were not formed correctly but a few seconds of tightening fixes that.

Dan KG0AQ

Stan,

Which pins do you bend? On the cable end? Inside the housing? TIA!

Dan KG0AQ

Thanks for the "hermaphroditic" term. Basically 2 spades mated with a spring leaf inside the cable end for the mechanical connection?  I agree with you on convenience but not convinced they are reliable as to my issues with them.  Thanks,

Dan KG0AQ

My main issue with them is the leaf spring as a solid mechanical connection. But I must admit Power Pole sells a lot these so somehow their engineering is proven.

K9DUR

Dan, your description of a spade & a leaf spring implies 2 metal pieces inside the housing.  There is only one.  The contact is a flat piece of metal ("spade" if you will) with a curved bump on one end,  Sort of the same shape as looking at the edge of a fork.

I have never had issues with an intermittent connection, but have had issues with a voltage drop across the contacts.  I bump my power supply voltage up a bit to compensate. -- 73, Ray, K9DUR

WX7Y

Tighten both sides(Radio and Cable), just take a small SHARP flat blade screwdriver in the VERY front of the connectors and get in underneath the front of the "SPADE" and bend it up a little bit.
There is a Small little metal peace that actually locks underneath the front of the "SPADE" to keep it from coming out the back of the connector, but this does NOT push the connector up at all. 

I replaced the ones on my cable with the MUCH thicker 35 Amp contacts and it really helps a bunch, there all universal and fit the radio perfectly. 
73

Bret
WX7Y

Dan KG0AQ

Great info Bret, thanks. I will bend them slightly as you suggested and see if the problem goes away. If not, I will purchase the 35 amp model connectors and replace the current ones.  73 TU

Al_NN4ZZ

Hi Dan,
Here are some tips on measuring the voltage drop on the connectors and internal fuse as well as a conductive grease you can use to improve connectivity.

http://www.nn4zz.com/FLEX6700.htm#Low_Voltage_Lockup

Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
al (at) nn4zz (dot) com

Brian Denley KB1VBF

If you make your own powerpole cables, you quickly learn to make sure the metal contacts are pushed in far enough.  You should be able to look in the connector end and see the tab.  If not, they will not mate reliably.

Dave-N9CHM

Yep, I replaced all my power cables with 45A PP connectors (which are the largest ones that fit in the plastic housing), the larger surface area of the spade seems to really help.

KC2QMA_John

Did you just replace the contacts on the cable or did you also change the contacts/connector on the radio?

WX7Y

I built a new Cable with the 45 Amp connectors and kept the factory cable untouched. 
I have not seen the need to change the ones in the radio, just bend them out a tiny bit

W9WLX_Chuck

The physical limitation is the limited area of the connector.  One way to address would be a second set of PP connectors on the Flex in parallel.  Then we could easily run parallel #10 cables from the supply.  Icom makes it very easy to do this since they already run parallel conductors.  Just a simple modification of their connector allows parallel cables back to the supply.

KC2QMA_John

I think when the warranty runs out I may upgrade the power connector on the radio to a high quality high current connector. I do notice that during high duty cycle at full power (100W) the power pole connection on the radio gets very HOT in fact so hot you could burn you fingers.

Mark NS9N

I was going to be silent on this topic but decide it was worth adding some comments. If there is ever going to be a weak link in a power system, it is going to be at the connector. If anyone really thinks one "good" connector system is better then another, they are fooling themselves. Every connector system has a basic issue, It is a connector. Mechanically, at best there are three contact points and when one fails you hope that there is another that reconnects. That all said, every connector design that you use MUST use only the OEM product or you open yourself up to sub-par performance. You do get what you pay for and cheaper usually means someone is trying to "rip off" the OEM. It is a **** shoot. You might get lucky and find a good supplier but in most cases the OEM gets a bad rap for something that is not their fault. If in a high vibration service, mobile, crimp your connectors using only what the manufacture recommends. Follow what they say, they have spent lots of money testing their designs. If in a non-vibration environment, QTH, solder your wires to your connectors. But do this before you insert the metal parts into the plastic parts or you will for sure cause other issues. 

I for one appreciate that Flex chose a common connect design - Anderson Powerpole. Done right, they perform flawless. If you have an issue with the connectors and wire harness supplied by Flex, CALL THEM. Something is wrong and in my case, they have always done the right thing. You may have gotten a bad one. The world is not perfect. BUT if you are using your cable, time for some more education. After all, that is what Ham Radio is really about. If we are not learning, what value are we getting?

I have 40 plus years of testing automotive and heavy vehicle electronic system and have tested every connector systems you can imagine. I can fail any of them if they are not built 100% to what the OEM recommends. But if done right, you will enjoy many years of no issues. Good supplier know that they are doing. 

If you still think you have a better idea, go for it. Change the connectors on you Flex Radio. Just don't blame Flex if you burn up your so call Better Connector system. Mechanical connector locks have their purpose but remember, there is still a mechanical/electrical connection inside that are usually not improved by an external lock. Thank you all for those who suggested cable restraints.

This is an open community so expressing your opinions that one connector is better than another is your right but it is you opinion unless you have real test data to show there is a difference. And by this I mean thousands of hours in test environments that measures the multiple parameters at their extremes..  

KC2QMA_John

If you don't need a quick disconnect and want military grade these work great and are good for 250 amps.

Dan KG0AQ

Over the years I have become very comfortable with Molex connectors on my ham gear and in my professional career. In my 40 years of being a ham I have never had a failure with a 13.8 VDC molex connector. My first experience with a power pole has not been good.

Here are links to datasheets on molex and power pole connectors for those interested in agency listings and overall data. I understand the miniaturization trend for electronic products. But are we sacrificing overall reliability on higher current connectors? Aftermarket cable restraint and strain relief rigging is not a solution but a bandaid.

https://www.andersonpower.com/content/dam/app/ecommerce/product-pdfs/DS-PP1545.pdf 

http://www.literature.molex.com/SQLImages/kelmscott/Molex/PDF_Images/987651-0521.PDF 

I really appreciate the ideas and viewpoints from all the fellow hams that have chimed in. I have learned a lot about power poles with this tread.  I am going to ponder my next step as the choices seem many. The people that responded about upsizing the powerpole connector on the cable seems the be the least intrusive route. That way I don't have to modify the Flex in anyway.

Tnx to all, 73 and Happy Holidays!

My Christmas wish is for more sunspots!

Bill -VA3WTB

A lot of people, including those here on the community who bought a K4 or going to, are not going to be very happy as they also use Powerpole.

As for me, I had a problem with mine after receiving my pre owned 6500. After bending the tabs in the wire ends they have been tight and have never been a problem since. I'm happy with them.

WX7Y

The key word is CONNECTOR which is the problem not the type of connector the rest of the babble is JUST someones opinion.

I have used MOLEX connectors in commercial equipment and have actually had them catch fire from getting hot when the Spring goes out of the socket and or oxidize so they are definitely not the answer.
My commercial carrier involves probably more then 2000 2-way radio's, over 300 Television Transmitters, Motor vehicle Electrical systems repair and a HAM since 1982 so have seen thousands of connector and no MATTER what kind of connector you use if it is NOT sealed, does NOT have solid Mechanical and Electrical non oxidizing metal like gold they will oxidize and break down and have resistance which produces heat. 


The Power Pole connectors DO have the capability with there built in Strain relief into the connector which is the Small Holes half way through the connector so when both Positive and Negative are slid together it makes a round hole that you can put a small zip tie or Plastic covered tie Wire  to the opposite mating side and locks them, BUT unfortunately FLEX put the connector to far into the Cabinet to be able to get to the hole on the Radio side with out pulling the cover and trying to fish it through the hole and through the chassis hole. 

Anyway this debate can go on forever about connectors with all the same outcome (THEY WILL BREAKDOWN OVER TIME)

73's
Bret
WX7Y

KC2QMA_John

For clarification this is a Terminal not a connector.
But if your warranty has run out and and like overkill like me and don't mind an easy DIY project these are great!

However the stock power pole connection is not bad just not that heavy duty or robust but does get the job done if you don't move the cable too much and get a few cable ties to securely hold the cable in place.

Aderson does make a better heavy duty higher amperage connector type it's just not used on on most ham radios.
https://powerwerx.com/anderson-sb-con... https://powerwerx.com/anderson-powerp...

Al_NN4ZZ

Hi John,

RE: " But if your warranty has run out and and like overkill like me and don't mind an easy DIY project these are great! "

Did you make the swap to those terminals?  Or plan to?  It would be nice to see some pictures of the before and after.   It has been a while since I had the cover off of my 6700 but don't remember seeing much room around the power connectors.  

Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
al (at) nn4zz (dot) com
Win 10 SSDR V2.4.9

KC2QMA_John

Hi Al, I am still under warranty but when it runs out I will be adding these Because I never move my radio and want a super heavyduty high amperage connection.

I have a 6600m but the terminals aren't that big so they should fit a 65/6700 ok.

BTW I'm still on V2.49 and works good for me and don't have to worry about "autosave"!

John KB4DU

Actually, there are two pieces of metal in each connector. The spade is attached to the incoming wire and a spring in the housing holds the spade in place.

The Anderson brand connectors work pretty well, but like most stuff any more there are inexpensive imports that will work, just not very well.

I had the power supply connected to  distribution block, but the loss was excessive on transmit, due to the high current flow. I ended up attaching the flex directly to the power supply and a separate connection to the distribution block for all the low current items.Then, as above, I adjusted the output voltage of the power supply to maintain the desired voltage to the flex during transmit.  (13.8v +- 15%).

The Power Poles became the norm for much of ham radio to alleviate the multitude of adapters needed to connect various radios and components together during field/emergency operations involving several co-located radios. The convention is "Tongue top, red right"

Robert Guertin

I think most problems with the voltage and current draw of the radio depends wire size. I fixed my undervoltage problem at the powerpole connectors with a #8 wire size feed from power supply to the radio.

Dan-N7HQ

When we calibrate radios in the service lab, the tests we run require +13.8vdc at the rear of the radio during full power transmissions.  The bench power supplies we use have a remote sensing capability that regulates the voltage measured at the rear connector and custom-build 4-wire power cables to accommodate all that. 

Because we constantly plug/unplug power leads and routinely need to replace them, we employ a "sacrificial connector" made by crimping 45A PowerPole connectors back-to-back using a very short length of #10 power cable and some heat-shrink tubing to form the four connectors into a unified assembly. Our custom 4-wire cable plugs into that. If you constantly move the power leads to your radio, you may benefit from a similar solution.

Since I've been in Austin (six months), I haven't witnessed any radio that required a power connector replacement due to wear and tear.  I have seen radios where the connector required cleaning, the owner soldered directly to the connector or removed them entirely and soldered directly to the circuit board.

73, 
Dan

Kevin N9JKP

Al, this weekend I noticed  that during transmission by internal voltage was dropping below 12VDC.  I have an Astron 50 power supply.  I haven't done the internal adjustment nor have I shortened my cables as much as I could.  However, I did use some silver based conductive grease on the power pole connections and it improved the voltage drop during transmission by 0.5VDC.  I will still do some other work but this was quick and effective.

K5ROX

Why is it that a "Flex Radio" is never the problem with flex management?

I dealt with a resetting problem over a year before any help from flex was offered, I was told to buy all new stuff and I did.. $900..... problem still exist like I said it would so finally they exchanged radio and its been fine.   Wish I had my 900 back.

Ok so onto the problem here.

One of the connectors, either in the radio or ALL the other connectors you have used are assembled incorrectly.


Answer is pretty clear to me.

Al_NN4ZZ

Hi Dan / N7HQ,
Thanks for your feedback and info.  Question:  What is the contact amperage provided on the power cable supplied with a radio?  

Per the hardware manual the power pole connector on the radio uses 45 amp contacts.  (see below).  Several posts here indicate that the Flex factory cables come with 30A or 35A contacts on the power cable.    Is that correct or do you think that may be the case with some aftermarket cables that were used? 

In any case it seems that using 45A contacts on both sides would be better and recommended.  Thoughts?

 I recently updated my web page notes to suggest that the power cable should also use 45A contacts and want to be sure this is a fair recommendation. 

http://www.nn4zz.com/FLEX6700.htm#Low_Voltage_Lockup


Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
al (at) nn4zz (dot) com
Win 10 SSDR V2.4.9