S meter

KL4QG

Always reading S-4 on 20 ,S-5-6 40. S-6 on 75 meters RF not lowering it Why is it always read high Icom 7700 zero on 20 ,40 S1 average 80 S 2 Average Now when my friends talk on different bands getting their normal S reading Is their adjustment

KY6LA_Howard

Search this forum there are lots of discussions why Flex is accurate and the Icom is not correct

KL4QG

Oh will do my Ten Tec Omni 7 is close to same S meter reading as 6400M

Burt Fisher

HCampbell WB4IVF

Burt Fisher

KL4QG

Burt so what does my S meter always read 4-5 with no one talking and quite band like 20 meters ?That my Question ??? It does read same S meter reading for my local contacts if they are S9 on Icom 7700 they are S9 on Flex 6400M

Lasse Moell

dlwarnberg

KL4QG

David
I agree
It’s not normal have 4-5 S at my area on 20 meters when
no one talking I owned at 12 different HF Radios Yes receive ssb signals are accurate with my 6400M I

KL4QG

No matter if I use 1.8 to 2.8 filter or RF gain control Still 4/5 S units on 20 meters

KL4QG

Found this on your attachment this is what I want Reading Zero on Dummy load not 3-4 S units Below is from Attachment I'll make it simple when the receiver has a dummy load for an antenna I want it to read ZERO on my 6400M like on my KX3 and formally on my 7300. Currently it read S7 on 80 meters on the 6400M and slightly lower on other bands

dlwarnberg

So if you switch to RXA and narrow your slice, even put it on CW mode what do you get?  I'm assuming you have nothing attached to the RXA port..

Just an FYI... I have a flex 6500, where i used to live I had to just live with a high noise floor, it was a combination of neighbors, pool pumps, routers, switches, walwarts, etc... in my home and nearby homes causing noise..

I recently moved, out in an area where I see one neighbor, on 2 acres of land now and very little noise.. I can now pick up a electric fence about 1/4 mile away and my 4 Square Receive array will light up with signals.

KL4QG

Not thing on RXA port I’m new and not afraid admit I’m learning narrow slice ? What is Slice??? Had radio 6 days at work now

dlwarnberg

Just to give you an example and my opinion.... I recently had the electrician put in a 50 amp RV outlet on the other side of the house, if I turn on the breaker I see my noise floor go up and I hear the RV causing RF on 80 meters...  In my opinion several radio manufactures have designed radio's that account for higher noise levels and adjust them accordingly thus making is seem like brand A has a lower noise floor with the same given conditions as brand B Radio.  To back this up, my Flex 6500 hears the RV, where as my Yaesu QRP rig I do not hear it nearly as pronounced as I do on the flex, it's still there but it's very faint.

Lasse Moell

Of course the difference of going from 2.8 to 1.8 kHz is small, it's less than 2 dB. Remember Flex has chosen 6 dB for each step, i.e. you need to go fron 2.8 down to 0.7 kHz to have one S-unit less, IF you only have noise in the passband.

One way of pleasing most users would be a user defined table, mapping the received power to shown S-units. Purists may say this is wrong, but then S-units are only a recomendation no standard. Some do get their knickers in a twist when the S-meter stays the same when invoking pre-amp, or even get crazy when the S-meter shows reduced numbers... it all falls back to lack of understanding of power, noise, noise factor and what you accually measure

dlwarnberg

Joe... it's really the width of the pan adapter / water fall you are looking at.. zoom in

Michael N3LI

Hi Joe, I think you might have to get a different radio to give you the S-Numbers you want. Spreading out the Panadpter and cuttung the bandwidth might help as well. 

I think (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong ) the Flex samples the background using  digital "bins" based on how big a slice of frequency you are using If I have my radio on CW, 50 Hz, and on a Dummy load, I'm ~ -140 SWR measures something less than 1. PLacing it on the antenna this morning it's between 1 and 2. 

Now changing that to 3K Bandwidth, same mode, Signal goes to ~ -120, and S is ~5 with antenna, and a tad over S3 on the Dummy load. 

The interesting thing is that the bandwidth doesn't do a thing to the noise floor. The difference is because some of those noise peaks hit the bins.

If you look at the S-Meter, and at the noise floor, you will see that the noise is not steady. Looking at my S meter I can see the level going between 1 and nearly 0 as the noise floor at the 50 Hz slice varies. 

Anyhow, please gurus, correct me if I'm just blowing hot air. 

In the end, S-Units are a terrible way to determine signal strength. Some radios use 3dB per S-unit, while the "standard" is 6. So a inherently innacurate signal strength measurement is made worse by the 3 versus 6 dB variance. 

I suppose it takes some getting used to. But It isn't likely that Flex is going to make their S-Meter less accurate. 

KL4QG

I don’t want different radio I use Flex 6400M I’ll try different pan h widths next I just want meter read Zero on dummy load. not 3-4

dlwarnberg

Mike you are spot on... example, right now.. 20 meters, RXA wide slice, I show S2 but a noise floor of -130... zoom in, narrow the slice... my noise floor will drop to -140 but the S meter still shows S2

KL4QG

Nice comments enjoy all help

KL4QG

I’ll try few things when I get home after work and report back here

KY6LA_Howard

Dudley WA5QPZ

KL4QG

I not concerned about stations S reading at all-
I would like upgrade from Flex to give us a way lower
The Meter reading noise levels to Zero without affecting stations S reading
I am very thank full for Flex Radios

KL4QG

Ok I’ll try 10 HZ I seen that below that was my next question thanks You will also notice that the band level will drop with each additional preamp setting added, this is correct too

Michael N3LI

Lasse Moell

Trying to find the specs for the 6400 receiver I failed and using the numbers from the 6300/6500. It states that -121 dBm is the MDS of the radio with pre amp OFF and 500 Hz filter. Assume you are looking at SSB, this translates to -114 dBm with 2,5 kHz BW (remember this is 6500 I do not have the numbers from the 6400). This is slightly more than S 2 accordingly to the recommended levels by IRAU. All these numbers seems to translate to a receiver NF of 26 dB, which is a bit high in my book, but real world testing shows I only need to activate the pre-amp on the higher bands, as the atmospheric noise is usually higher on lower bands.  Remember that the s/w compensate for the additional gain and the user will only see lower S-numbers if the amospheric noise is lower than the radio sensistivity. It bottoms out to if you want the S-meter to read lower numbers when you have your dummy load attached (it may read S 2-3), do invoke the preamp. You will see lowest number with the pre amp at the highest setting. This will give your receiver lowest noise factor. But it is wasted if the noise from the antenna is higher, and the price you pay is less ability to handle multiple strong signals (i.e. dynamic range).

All these numbers may be confusing for some... but the bottom line is: If you want your radio to adhere to the IRAU recommendation, you will have your S-meter showing higher than zero even when using SSB bw and a dummy load with the pre-amp off. Like it or not

Lasse Moell

Even though I use dBm when I do my own measurement using my receivers, it is still not really a meaningfull way of reporting the received signal. The proper way would be field strengh, which also take in account thé antenna used by the receiver, but that's another can of worms...  I pretty much resigned giving out "meaningful" strenght reports,  it's really either I hear them or not

Duane N9DG

Duane N9DG