3D FFT Display

Mike VE3CKO

KF4HR I see what your saying, the bandscope/waterfal works for you as indeed it should. However with innovative, forward thinking there could and probably will be a display method you or I haven't thought about.
7-segment digital readout VFO and fish finders, wow, it will never get any better than that. Thank God for innovation.

mikeatthebeach .

Adding 3D Panadapter would do the trick for FlexRadio against The coming wave of 3D products like the Yaesu FTDX101D which I might pick up soon from Yaesu 73 Mike

Mark_WS7M

Ya, probably useless for a contest for sure.  It is a novelty that when you have the space can sort to tell you a little more about a signal for like 5 seconds of time.

Mark_WS7M

Ok Dan we are giving you a special version that puts all your pans in another dimension!

Eric Gruff

The baseball All-Star Game had a 5D camera of the batters. I guess the bar (bat?) has been raised.

Dan Trainor

I think ham radio is far behind in 3D graphics.  If you look at the Marine Navigation GPS/Bathometric depth finders and charting software, they all have advanced 3D graphics as an option and it brings things to life once your senses get used to it.  Ham Radio is in catch up mode as the market is too small to invest in innovation. dan

Ken Hansen

Why must my HF radio include a display copies from a 'fish finder'? I don't sense a great issue with current interfaces, but maybe I'm not the target audience. Has anyone gotten any feedback on the 3D interface on the new Yaesu radios?

Gene Duprey

I looked at the 3D display on the Yaris, and could see nothing it gave me that I did not already have. More of a gimmick than useful information. Why waste time putting it on any radio? Gene, K1GD

Larry - WA7LZO

Well, I suppose you could also ask “Why use a GPS when a Thomas map guide works perfectly fine?” Answer: Cuz it’s called”technology,” and it’s 2019! You know, like when cell phones replaced pay phones? If ham radio enthusiasts keep resisting new technology, like when hams insisted on hanging on to AM when SSB came out, anyone less than 75 years old will never be attracted to ham radio. Then, FCC will claw back all of our frequencies, and ham radio will be kaput. Hang around with some Millennials. They’ll explain it to you. Just sayin...

Mike VE3CKO

Resisting new technology is not what is at question. Who cares if it's new technology the question is, is the method of display useful? Good point about being a gimmick. I think Mark - WS7M adaptation of 3D with SmartSDR is a great start and looks way better than what Yaesu did but would need to play with it to see if is is useful, worthwhile or eye candy as previously discussed. Here is the link again: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7myl0w93f1y5olm/3DPanaFall.mp4?dl=0

KF4HR

IMO your 3D version is much easier on the eyes than the Yaesu 3D version.  Please keep us informed if you decide to proceed! 

Eric Gruff

At the risk of hijacking this thread, which seems to happen often on the Flex forums, I'll jump in to wholeheartedly agree with Mike, VE3CKO.

There was a lively discussion a year or two ago on attracting youngsters to radiosport (contesting). One of the themes that came up repeatedly was that the existing entertainment/hobbies for young people (video games, smartphones, etc.) were so much more stimulating to the senses than staring at a typical ham radio, even one with a panadapter display. There were some interesting suggestions about trying to expand contesting to integrate Internet-based and VR technologies as well.

It's unlikely most of these things will happen, but as a ham for 42+ years who started as a 12 year-old in the hobby, I was drawn to the ability to be able to talk all over the world and use really cool technologies that were otherwise not available to me. If I put myself in the shoes of the same kid today, there's little that ham radio can do that I can't do via other means. There are some things that are somewhat buried, like the learning experience and the chance to contribute to new technology, as well as the "if all else fails" aspect, but none of those things seems particularly "sexy".

In many ways, we're still fighting the AM vs SSB wars with arguments over FT8, internet-based radio (DMR, D-Star, IRLP, etc.) and now 2D vs 3D vs Smellovision radios. If someone can invent it and someone else is willing to buy it, I say let's try it!

Just my $0.02.

Eric NC6K

Ken Hansen

Not quite sure why you decided to attack me personally, but so be it. We use GPS over printed maps not because it is 'technology', but because it provides positive benefits over printed maps - I've never had a printed map alert me to upcoming turns, as but one example. Using technology because it is available reminds me of a scene in a Monty Python movie - "The Machine that goes Ping": Note: Monty Python humor is often off-color, some readers may prefer to not watch it, suffice to say it embodies the idea of adding technology for the sale of adding technology and impressing others. Link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=arCITMfxvEc I embrace technology when it adds value, not when it adds complexity and cost without benefit. And to that end, I ask again, has anyone gotten any feedback on the 3D spectrum scope from people that own the radios? THAT feedback is far more relevant than insisting that Flex simply embrace/chance every new technical novelty released by it's competitors, for fear of being viewed as falling behind.

Larry - WA7LZO

This is precisely the reason why 99.9% of Millennials have zero interest in ham radio.

Us old farts use our old slide rule ancient technology (yes, I'm being a bit of tongue in cheek here and we tell ourselves it's just as good as our iPhone or PC calculator functions. We can talk all day about why we don't NEED 3D on our ham radios, but that is my exact point. Millennials LOVE technology. Sans new fangled stuff, they have zero interest. This is why ham radio unfortunately may have a limited amount of time before the marketplace eventually will motivate Congress to pressure the FCC to step in and recall billions of $'s worth of spectrum, and put it to commercially profitable use by companies willing to buy it. These technology arguments are exactly the reason why the ham radio hobby is headed for extinction. And, No, it's not the issue of Yaesu 3D technology vs 2D, it's the entire ham attitude "...if it's good enough to get the job done, who cares if it pushes the state of the art...?" This is a big turn-off for Millennials, and without new blood, this hobby is sunk. Like one of my Econ Profs used to say, "If something cannot be sustained, it will not."

Enuf said. Now I feel like Wayne Green, which is definitely not good.

Eric Gruff

That's OK. I have at least one "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!" moment every day.

Ken Hansen

The issue isn't 'needed or not' it's that it literally adds nothing to the radio as far as I can tell. This isn't an age thing, it really isn't. Next you'll be telling me that we need to be able to load apps on our radios, like we do on our smartphones... or perhaps we need to start broadcasting every QSO on Facebook. The issue keeping young people out of the hobby isn't that our radios lack sophisticated features, and adding the latest tech for the sake of having the latest tech is non-sensical. I've been deeply involved in this hobby (both personally and professionally), and I've never met a ham that talked about being 'recruited' into the hobby, everyone had an interest and cane to the hobby in furtherance of that interest - maybe they liked public service, maybe radio fascinated them, maybe they just liked the people in the club. Everyone thinks they know what is 'holding the hobby back', but there really isn't a problem - total numbers of licensees are on the rise, and manufacturers are offering some of the best radios ever produced and at reasonable prices. The growth in the hobby today is the empty-nester that always had an interest but career, family, etc always got in the way. You aren't going to get teens and twenty-something's to join your club, but you will get the 45+ year-old looking for a hobby who used to play with TRS-80s and Apple computers as a kid, then played with electronics, and now, after a career in tech is looking for something new. If the future of the hobby depends on adding a fish-finder interface to the radio, or on adopting the mindset that believes the fish-finder interface is important, the hobby is already dead. From: http://www.fishhunter.com/ice-fishing-flasher/

Larry - WA7LZO

“...You aren't going to get teens and twenty-something's to join your club, but you will get the 45+ year-old...” Exactly my point! Unfortunately, if you are correct, then re-arranging the furniture on the deck of the Titanic won’t save the ham radio hobby. I don’t know about your fish finders, but us old geezers best find a way to recruit lots of young ppl (which are definitely not the 45 + year old crowd!), or what my Econ Prof said will rule the day.

Ken Hansen

Focusing on teens is never going to pan out. I've got two clubs within 15 miles of my home, each has more than 125 active members. Of the last 20 new members that joined the one club, none were under 40 years old, the other has a handful of college students because their college campus is inside the town the college is located. If I consider all the clubs in my immediate area, I probably have over a dozen within reasonable driving distance (less than 25 miles). From where I sit, the hobby isn't dying.

Larry - WA7LZO

"From where I sit, the hobby isn't dying."


The number of licensed hams in Japan in 1995 was about 1.4 million. By the end of 2006, this number had nose dived to only about 534,000! The last number I saw for licensed hams in Japan was around 380,000 in 2018.

So, the number of licensed hams in Japan has gone from more than twice as many hams as there were in the US, to now about half the number of US hams, with the latter having remained pretty near stagnant (maybe 1 or 2% growth, if you can even c all that "growth"). The number of US hams is barely keeping up with population increase, as it is essentially stagnant.

From where I sit, unless a lot of young folks (you know, the sub-45+ year old crowd) get interested in the amateur radio hobby, and fast, then Wayne Green's musings will unfortunately turn out to be correct.

Bob G W1GLV

just an advertising gimmick. To me it's all eye candy. I played with one at Hamvention and was not impressed. During a pileup especially with CW it looks like a pile of jello moving around. This is my personnal opinion. Yaesu is still a good radio.

K3SF

IMHO

The bandscope/waterfall is 3D...you have time, freq and signal strength (aka 3 Dimensions)...the 3D is presented in the waterfall  as time, freq and signal strength too where signal strength  is shown  as various colors and intensities...

The water fall is a good data compression of 3D...by reduces the complexity of navigating/perceiving a 3D space into a 2D space.

Paul K3SF

Ken - NM9P

Imagine linking a 3D display to your rotator direction readout... spin the antenna and get a graphic representation of the relative strengths of signals on a compass rose chart.... could be very handy to track down sources of interference, or chart the hot direction of radio propagation.... It could be interesting and useful technology, once applications are developed that move it past the eye candy phase. I see this as the next logical step in the development of visual aids to helping us understand the spectrum..... First we had the magic eye tube display, Then the S-Meter, Then a simple IF band scope, Then a basic band scan pip, Then an SDR panadapter, Then a waterfall, Then a panafall, Next comes a simple 3D display, Then adaptive tools using 3D technology.... What’s next? The experimenters will answer that question.... Perhaps in my retirement I will learn C# and add to the list.....

Ken Hansen

I'm not qualified to critique the radio behind the interface, but I spent 15-20 minutes playing with the 3D display on an FTDX-101 at my local HRO, and I didn't see any benefit. A 'traditional' 2D waterfall makes it obvious where the signals were, the new 3D waterfall (fish finder) makes a confusing muddle of the waterfall, making it hard to set the VFO where a particular signal was previously. .. you have to follow an imaginary diagonal line back thru the waterfall and 'guesstimate' where the signal was frequency-wise. Granted, this is a first-generation implementation, it could get better, but I failed to see any pressing need for that 'improvement' in the SSDR software.

KE9NS

Here is my version of Mark's (WS7M) 3DPanafall in PowerSDR ke9ns v2.8.0.150



short video of it in operation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgjC5NcpmwU


Darrin

ke9ns.com/flexpage.html

Rich McCabe

I would like someone to explain the benefit of this to me?  It reminds me of 80s car stereos.

I am all for improvement and I use the waterfall more than the scope in a contest judging strength and location to click next.

What are the gains?

Robert Lonn

RICH,, it allows you to use the word "COOL", even when it is not COLD outside!!! :-) 

KE9NS

The straight 2D Panafall mode offers the most useful info for sure.
The 3DPanafall mode is really just a "Visualizer".
I was mainly curious to see what it would look like

Darrin ke9ns

Mark_WS7M

One gain I saw even during my small little testing of the 3D pan was you can watch a station's signal strength change over a short period of history.

Yes you can do the same on an S-meter but then you have to look at something different.

There is zero doubt this is a little gimmicky and may not prove useful on a crowded band at all.   But is really is nothing more than another way to view the data we are presented.

James Whiteway

Darren watching your YouTube videos makes me want a Flex 5000! I had no idea how much you have improved upon PowerSDR! Well done! James WD5GWY

James Whiteway

Mark glad to see your 3 D panadapter added to PowerSDR. James WD5GWY