v3 Upgrade Price for Less than One Year Owners

Bill -VA3WTB

Some may think Gerald is not telling the truth about the cost od software dev. But he did state that the cost of software dev is the most expensive part of the business, and that the $200.00 for an upgrade is a long way away from covering the dev cost. They depend on hardware sales to cover the cost.

Gerald also said that he considers Flex to be a software company. The reason makes sense. Developing the hardware for a new radio may take a year or two then it's all finished for several years. Untill they plan for another radio. But software is every day all year for as long as there are Flex radios. It never ends and is never completed. But hardware is.

I don't know how much support there is here to sway Flex to change their pricing policy, but I can't see it change no matter what is said here. The numbers just are not there. This policy has been very good for Flex and it is working very well. If it wasn't then Gerald would have made changes a long time ago.

Kevin

Windows 10 has been through 6 major updates since its release in 2015. Each update has added significant features and bug fixes. In addition, other minor updates and bug fixes, including important security fixes are released often. I have not had to pay for a single upgrade. In fact, I was able to move from Win7 to Win10 without cost. Not a good comparison at all. Microsoft gets its money in different ways so it doesn't fit either argument.

Linux, upgrades all the time. Generally freely available. Not a good comparison at all.

Apple? I don't know.

Personally, I'm not asking for free. Actually, I get it for free because upgraded from a 6500 to 6700. But $200 take it or leave it sucks. It will **** for anyone here that decides they don't need the main feature but still pays to get other features and updates. It will **** for anyone that will have spent $400 moving from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 compared with someone that only paid $200 to go from 1 to 3. 

The options I heard mentioned over the many posts of this similar subject are (no particular order):

1) make it free (not sure that's necessary or supportable)
2) charge less for 1 to 2 or 2 to 3, more for 1 to 3. 
3) charge for specific plugins (multi, remote) but leave the base code common and free (or subscription for bugs and minor features?) for all
4) charge subscription (flex can't maintain a reasonable schedule)

On the other hand, the options I hear from those that don't mind parting with the money or don't understand what they are passing up are:
1) take it or leave it, nobody is forcing you (yet, yes they are)
2) it's only $200 (only)
3) everybody else does it that way (??)
4) flex needs the support (????)

Waiting for an amplifier for 2 years and still smiling. That's your choice. I can't understand it yet I won't try to tell you that you are wrong and that you should buy a new amp from someone else or give you some other instruction. If that's what you want - wait 2+ years - I can 100% support you.

I feel a bit sorry for the OP. He hasn't heard from everyone yet.

Kev

Scott Russell - N1SER

God help me Kevin... haha

Scott Russell - N1SER

Wayne, your post is full of holes. First, minor software upgrades or updates do in fact at times give you new features. Major upgrades like Windows 7 to Windows 10 absolutely give you new features if that's what you mean by "gadgets". This doesn't really make any difference since we're talking about two different products and business models. By the way, MS will end support for an OS at some point (years) down the road but that is after supporting the version with updates and security fixes during that time (even with new versions like 10 being out) but at some point yes they do sunset the OS. They can't support it forever and you have to move on at some point. But that's not the reason for this post.

Also, if you think your 6700 will last another 7 years and through new major versions of SSDR without having to upgrade to a new radio hardware version, you sir are in for a rude awakening. The same thing will happen to Flex 6000 series as they do in the computer arena, at some point the hardware will not support the software features and then if you want the new software features you'll have to upgrade to a new model radio. Look at the 1500 and 5000... right?

I don't agree with the argument some people want to bring up about the other radio manufacturers. They are not the same. You can't compare a firmware update on those to a software update like we have with Flex. The beauty of Flex is just that, new features, enhancements and bug fixes are seen in the software. Let's take for instance the band buttons in SSDR. I think the currently selected band should be highlighted somehow like with a different color, when you go into the Band pop-out. That is a software fix that can be easily done. If I wanted a light to light up on a physical band button on say the Kenwood TS-590SG, it would be impossible to do via firmware or software update. The hardware doesn't have an LED there at all. SDR's bring in a new way of thinking. You kind of get what you get when you buy something other than a Flex. It's up front and known when you buy it. Not really the same with Flex.

Scott Russell - N1SER

I'll add another thought to something mentioned above. Doesn't Flex have a commercial side of the business? Probably government contracts it looks like? I can't believe Flex is hurting when it comes to software development. That's just my uneducated guess. But I digress... 

Scott Russell - N1SER

Now... let me get back to FT8 and killing the hobby and doing mindless button pushing. haha

Kevin

Ha! I'm trying to get BG3UPA's attention on 20 FT8 right now. S. Korea was up a few minutes ago. So far, nada.

Scott Russell - N1SER

Oh yeah, I saw him one time in band activity... good luck!!! I'm on the East coast 

Robert Lonn

Version 3.0 secret revealed!!!  I was on 20 meters this last weekend and got a call from Craig, K9CT!! He was running version 3.0 Beta... I convinced him that we were on 20 meters, both running a kilowatt, and if he shared with me what features 3.0 had, it would be our secret!! I guess he was fooled and did not know I can not keep a secret, so here it goes on what he shared with me about 3.0!!!! 

• The software will be called, Version 3.01
• It will run on the radio if you download it from the Flex site.
• It will run on a windows 10 based computer after it has been downloaded from Flex..
• If you enter promo code, " I Love Flex" the software will be free.
• However for free it will only allow the radio to operate on 27 MHz, channel 1-40 SSB..
• It will start your coffee **** in the morning.
• Auto set your toaster to make the waffles. 
• Turn on the heat in the shack if needed..
• And if equipped, remote start your car to warm it up on a cold morning.

I want to thank Craig for sharing this important updated information with me, and Wish Him the best with his contest participation!!

73's  Robert

Kevin

The coffee feature. That ends all arguments. Where do I sign up?

KY6LA_Howard

This SILLY ARGUMENT has been raging here since about 2012 when Flex first announced their annual software fee. Flex quickly changed to a $200 version upgrade fee but the howls have not diminished Let’s face it HAMS ARE CHEAP and most hams do not understand that these days the product cost in not the hardware but rather it’s the software that is expensive to build. Part of the reason is you can touch hardware but only see software work So I expect at this SILLY ARGUMENT will continue to rage here for years to come and everyone on both sides will be outraged that the other side does not get their point.

N8AUM

I don't mind purchasing "upgrades & new features" but bug fixes should be free for life but that's just my opinion. Being a new 6600 owner I really miss all the features of PowerSDR that my 5000 has. Ya, they need to make $$$$$ to continue with development and pay the bills. 

Steve K9ZW

After paying to upgrade to version 3.alpha for each test radio to participate as an Alpha tester I’m thinking the program as standing will continue. Nice thought but the can of worms on individual relative value added by changing cost options would be chaotic. FRS is good in my book running with the announced program as is. There is no other position that is any better for everybody (including FRS). Thinking that those who have an appreciation of the version 3 features will be very satisfied. The upgrade is very “non-trivial” so I’m expecting some interesting challenges as version 3 rolls out when the greater variety of configurations is upgraded. But know the alphas and FRS are “forging” the new release hammering hard at every aspect they can. 73 Steve K9ZW

KY6LA_Howard

Paul’ My point was that this same theme with minor variations keeps on recurring over and over and over again. We all get it. HAMS ARE CHEAP. NOBODY LIKES PAYING FOR INTANGIBLES LIKE SOFTWARE. Fact of life. It costs a lot of money to produce software. Yes some people have limited budgets so $200 after spending thousands of dollars on ham gear may feel expensive especially since it could be spent on tangibles like ****. But like steak. Do you go to the butcher asking for a discount because you bought a steak knife last year? Somebody has got to pay for the software. Development costs. Full Disclosure: I paid $200 for my copy of V3 so I could participate in Alpha testing I have watched months and months of labor going into development. Last time I heard that none of the software guys work for free or get 1/2 their pay because they were on payroll last year Yes it’s a silly argument because it reoccurs every time a new release is on the horizon.

Scott Russell - N1SER

Steve, I hope Flex is giving the Alpha testers a discount on the release version. Seems odd that you'd pay for an Alpha version when you're doing the testing. Should be the other way around. Nice blog by the way.

HCampbell WB4IVF

“How do you know the $200 only covers some of the development cost?”

https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/my-recent-thread

From Gerald:

“Charging $199 for Version 2 will not fund our software development for any material length of time even if we were to be able to sell software for one of our competitors radios as well.  We must remain competitive selling new radios to fund ongoing software development.  

We want a mutually beneficial model.  Those are the only ones that work.  A subscription fee model would definitely speed software development - guaranteed.  You can scale the development expense proportionately with the revenue stream.

How many people would get upset if we used that model instead of the major upgrade model?  

I have much more to say but this is getting too long to read.  Let me end with this:

In the new world of true SDR, it is in your own self interest that FlexRadio sell the most radios we can, gain market share, and be able to generate revenue from software so that we can deliver more software.  

Free software forever without new competitive radios to sell is a going out of business strategy.  

Innovate or die.  Where are Collins, Heathkit and Hallicrafters today?  Some are more recent examples I won't mention.

SmartSDR is the radio.  That means as we release new versions of SmartSDR, the FLEX-6300 and FLEX-6500 will get new features and are thus not obsolete.  That's a better deal than any last year's model car I ever owned.” 

Matt NQ6N

I understand that for some people $200 every few years is a very high price.  The amateur market for Flex transceivers is quite small, so Flex charging $200 for a major release is extremely aggressive pricing compared to a much larger company charging $50 for a major version on a mass market product. 

The important thing to consider is the market size, not the dollar amount.  If Flex doubled its market share the prices would likely come down a bit. 

There are a lot of startup companies that get major funding and give products away for a short time before going out of business.  This has helped set the expectation for many people that high quality software should be free. 

There are also some open source projects that offer free software. Flex has opted to keep its secret sauce software closed source for competitive reasons.  I don't know the details but I suspect that decision is rational. 

Flex has gone beyond offering an SDR platform with the 6000 series and included multiple SCUs so that much of the "glue" technology (SO2R switching, remote access, etc.) can be done in software without requiring additional hardware. 

This has saved me over $1000 in my station compared to if I'd kept my dual K3 setup and invested in remote rig boxes, remote-controlled RX antenna switches, etc.  So since Flex has put me ahead by over $1K, paying $200 for additional upgrades still seems like I came out ahead, and will still be ahead even with a few more $200 upgrades.

In my opinion, Flex is still at the beginning stages of making the most of the 6000 series hardware capability.  This is significant because the software/hardware combo is being used by top stations successfully for contesting, rag chewing, DXing, etc., yet it is still a very young platform with a great deal of additional potential. ALL of that potential will be unlocked by additional software development effort. 

The most significant aspect of hardware architecture in the 6600 and 6700 is the ability to use one transceiver for Multi 1 or SO2R operation. Without that feature, the top price point for a Flex would be the 6400. So it makes sense that Flex has invested heavily in MultiFlex to unlock additional capabilities of the flagship hardware.

Since I've been a Flex owner, I've seen lots of improvements in SO2R switching and remote operation, two of the other biggest advantages the hardware offers. 

I would expect future improvements to further enhance the strengths of the hardware.  This increases the value of the Flex hardware that we all own.  So even if one particular upgrade doesn't seem worth $200, since the hardware is made more powerful by it, its existence increases the value of all of our rigs whether we use the feature or not. 

73,
Matt NQ6N

Matt NQ6N

The alpha list is a very selective group. I've requested to be a tester and was denied. I suspect there are more than enough testers and so additional ones are not needed.  

ctate243

Alpha testers pay the same as the entire flex community does, with the caveat that what is provided in the beginning of the development cycle is very raw.. in fact the entire process of paying and activating the software is a component of the alpha test itself, so the process including fulfillment is well tested and smooth upon its final release.

Scott Russell - N1SER

Chris, ouch! Not trying to start an argument but I couldn't agree to paying to test new alpha versions, especially alpha, very raw is right. See, this is a different topic but alpha/beta testers should not have to pay at all, that's crazy to me. I could see not getting a perk like discounted release version but to actually pay? Wow.

Scott Russell - N1SER

Thanks HCampbell, see this is the kind of reply that is helpful. I've never seen or read this before so it answers many questions. I wish the people who have been in this community for a long time would give us "newbies" a bit of a break if we ask questions that have been discussed in the past. We may not realize the history and reason for stuff like this.

Bill -VA3WTB

 Scott, Sorry I missed your question, I'm glad HCampbell looked this up as I ran out of time.

Any comments I make on this community are not usually my opinions but well researched answers from past Flex comments.

This is the reason I said that the upgrade cost does not cover the cost of software dev...I was aware of this reply from Gerald.

This is why I mentioned several of Geralds comments as a referance.

As I see it , there are really never bad questions, keep them comming.

Scott Russell - N1SER

Hey it's all cool Bill. I'll try and do a better job of searching for the same topics before posting a new one.  Sometimes it's time consuming and hard to find replies on this type of community board. Replies get nested here and there and makes it hard to keep up with the replies and follow the thread.

I agree... the only bad or dumb question is the one not asked.

Val DM1TX

I do not have yet a Flex Radio but planning to get it soon.
I have been a Kenwood, a Yaesu and and still an Elecraft owner.
I am nevertheless following all topics of interest here.
I love the spirit of this enthusiastic Community!
I am still amazed that this discussion still pops-up now and then.
Here in Germany these radios are more expensive than in U.S.
Because we love their quality/support we are willing to pay the price.
And the way I see it, Flex is a SOFTWARE company.
The Software is the Radio as they say.
As someone here was so well put it, when I am willing to pay thousands (of Euros) for the  radio,
another 199 would make no difference if I really need the new features.
And somehow I feel that 199 Euros is a small fee to pay for the hard work of the Flexradio developers. I think that this fee will help Flex get on top fast.
73 from Bavaria
Val   DM1TX

Clay N9IO

Scot and Paul I keep coming back to this thread seeing the same points. I too am not trying to insight an argument but I really think you're too hung up on money. I seriously think if Flex did things your way they would find theirselves out of business in short order. I also realize you will likely continue trying to convince me again continuing with the same argument meaning you're not interested in my opinion. The system is with right as it stands imo. This debate is getting old. Does this really need to drag on because you're unhappy? Again, not trying to start something, asking for it to end.

Robert Lonn

I just sent the head of the Democratic party an important email!!! I told them since they are offing their voters everything for Free,,, can they please add to their platform, free Flex Software, heck why not free Ham Gear for all of us!!! I would vote for that!!! LOL

Robert

Clay N9IO

Rock and Roll!

K3SF

well
maybe need new insight where all the FREE FREE comes from

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VV80ozpuMw

just saying

please note this is intended to lighten up the conversation a little

Paul K3SF...Some Free ;-))

Clay N9IO

Of course you do.

Bill -VA3WTB

There is really no reason to ask for a discussion to end or a thread closed unless the replies start to become personal attacks. If we don't like the topic or it seems to drag on too long,,then I suggest simply turn the channel to something eles.

Most discussions die out on there own for lack of interest, but as long as some keep posting, it lives. The life span will take care of itself.

For me the cost of owning a Flex radio boils down to this.  If one feels that Flex no longer gives good value for the dollar then we have a dicision to make.
At this time V3 has little to offer me, but that's fine with me, I don't need to upgrade. My radio operation here will continue to be the same without it, nothing changes for me.
Even without the upgrate I still feel my radio gives me great value for the money spent. I think everyone feels the same way because they still have their Flex radio's.