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My thoughts on FT8

Gerald-K5SDRGerald-K5SDR FlexRadio Employee ✭✭
I have never been a blogger but I guess it is never too late in life to become one in the Internet age.  As most of you know, FT8 has exploded on all the bands at a rate I don't recall anytime in my ham radio lifetime.  I wrote a blog about my thoughts on the subject (IMHO) that I hope you will enjoy.  

You can find it at: https://www.flexradio.com/ft8-tipping-point-for-ham-radio/

73,
Gerald
«13

Comments

  • N3RCN3RC Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Well said! I agree and I am contester/dxer but discovered 6m because of FT8!
    73  Roger N3RC
  • Dave - W6OVPDave - W6OVP Member ✭✭
    edited August 2019
    BRAVO Gerald! After 64 yrs on the air I find FT8 (and the other new modes) to be genuinely exciting developments for and from Ham Radio. It was SDR that brought me back to HF Ham Radio after a 20 yr "vacation". And now new modes keep it fresh. 73 Dave.
  • Bob K8RCBob K8RC Old Guy Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Nice opinion piece, Gerald.

    I've noticed that, at least among my acquaintances, that the same people proclaiming that "FT8 is killing amateur radio" are the same group of people who proclaimed that "no-code will **** amateur radio". 

    I enjoy FT8 for all the reasons you mentioned. There ARE still a few tricks that help the true DXer make the contact before the greater portion of the "pileup" so there is some skill to call on. As far as the lack of "conversation" involved, I'll pass on the rag chewing. I will talk to friends from time-to-time on SSB, FM or even conventional RTTY. When I'm chasing DX or even band-states, however, I'm not really interested in the weather or your dog's name.

    The real draw for me in my 52 years of being a ham is the variety. I've been a traffic handler ("Radio Relay" are the middle letters of ARRL), a masochistic contester, an emergency communicator, an Honor Roll DXer and one of the old time "heavy metal" RTTY pioneers (DXCC-RTTY #317).

    FT8 and working on my 5BWAS (anybody in KL7 on 80M??) is what's keeping me out of bars these days. My only question is:

      "What's next?"

    73, Bob, K8RC

  • rjguidrysrrjguidrysr Member
    edited October 2018
    Loved it Gerald and your team is doing a great job to be sure we can use the new technology.
    Keep up the writing as well, very well done.  I was also happy to see a 9-year-old "EXTRA" class sent me a card for an RTTY contest contract.  That will help keep you going for sure. KD9LFP if you hear him let him know he is welcome to our club!
  • Lawrence GrayLawrence Gray Member
    edited October 2018
    Check out JS8 Call. All of the weak signal performance of FT8, but you can have an actual QSO.
  • WA5GPWA5GP Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    But you cant get to the software with out belonging to that group, so what good is that...
  • rjguidrysrrjguidrysr Member
    edited October 2018
    FOUND THE SITE

  • KF4HRKF4HR Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Well put Gerald.  I have a few other thoughts.

    I'm not a fan of FT8, but I certainly do not think the mode will **** the hobby; rather it's just a nitche for some people.  The large migration to this mode seems to indicate that, at least for some hams, making a fast call sign and signal report exchange is more appealing than than actually meeting and talking to other hams. 

    And FT8 certainly permits hams to obtain awards faster, but I wonder if making these goals too easy, is actually counter productive?  After FT8'ers all end up with all their awards hanging on their walls, then what?  Personally I like looking at my awards and remembering some of the hams I talked to that made that award possible, and the friends I made in the process.  But hey, that's just me.

    I also think FT8 proves we are just a short hop to fully automatic QSO's, where no operator is actually needed at all.  But we have self-driving cars now, so why not self-filling logbooks? 

    Thankfully we have many modes to choose from.  Each to their own.


  • Digital HamDigital Ham Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Gerald, thanks for that excellent description of the best code to hit the airwaves.  If you don't like FT8 then don't use it, stick to the modes that suit and thrill you and enjoy the hobby as you always have.  It does no good to grumble about how the hobby is changing, in my opinion, advancing.  I have been licensed since 1961 and I haven't had this much fun in all that time.  I working on worked all everything with FT8 and when the sunspots come back I will do the same in some other mode..

    Warren Gaspar
    KC0GU
  • NX6D DaveNX6D Dave Member
    edited December 2019
    In the new issue of QST, there is an article encouraging us to use Olivia.  Fine idea.  Olivia has excellent error correction allowing messages to be reasonably well decoded at the receiver.  Then the author says a few things about RSID and Olivia, and encourages us to use RSID.

    This, in my opinion, is part of the reason for the success of FT8.  Like Olivia, messages in FT8 either decode or not.  But FT8 is easily recognizable on the screen and comes in only one form, unlike the plethora of Olivia modes.  FT8 emphasizes call signs more, so you can tell who you are talking to.  Add to that the auxiliary program, JTAlertX, and you can tell at a glance who is calling CQ, whether you have worked them before, do you want to work them now, etc.

    It's a powerful combination of parts.  When JTAlertX pops up "Laos" in yellow surrounded by green, as it did for me yesterday, wham!  I'm all over it!  Got it too, but only after some application of some things I've learned the hard way, in other words, some skill.

    How do you make Olivia more appealing?

    1) Reduce the number of Olivia modes, way down.
    2) Make RSID mandatory, i.e., it is always generated when you call CQ.
    3) Extend programs like JTAlertX into that realm.  Improve the connectivity between FLDIGI and the various logging programs.

    73

    Dave / NX6D

  • Digital HamDigital Ham Member ✭✭
    edited December 2019
    Dave I just read that article in QST and was listening to an Olivia QSO when you posted this.  I used Fldigi and tried several different modes but could figure out which one is was.  Then the RSID message came through and I was copying the entire QSO. 

    Cool Stuff

    Warren
    KC0GU
  • edited October 2018
    Digital Ham. Boring. Need to PTT.
  • NX6D DaveNX6D Dave Member
    edited October 2018
    Yes, when the caller uses RSID.  My experience is that very few do.  I've spent hours messing about with those modes and the experience has been largely frustrating.

    FLDIGI doesn't make it easy to try different decoders on an unknown signal.  It could, for instance, look at the signal width, select decoders that might be right, and try them one after another looking for a match.  There's no skill on the operator's part doing that by hand, only drudgery and frustration.  How may times have I sat there and said, "OK, I give up.  I don't know what that is."?  SSB wouldn't be as popular as it is if you had to try both USB and LSB on every SSB signal in the pan.  But then you would also expect Flex to make it easy to quickly try both.

    Another point about FT8:  I have about a thousand JT65 and JT9 QSOs in my log.  I worked JT65 exclusively during NPOTA and activated 14 parks.  But those modes didn't take off like FT8, even though FT8 is somewhat less sensitive in decoding weak signals, and JTAlertX applies just as well.  FT8 is faster, simple as that.  Faster appeals to people.

    So I think the real lesson that FT8 is teaching right now is about convenience, accuracy, sensitivity and software support.  The DXPedition sub-mode is just getting started.  Version 2 of FT8 supports a much wider range of call sign forms and combinations.  DXPeditions are now beginning to embrace FT8.  Some will say that takes all of the fun out of it.  OK, fair point.  But I like hunting down the rare ones, trying to figure out how to get a signal to them, how to get a signal back, and getting them in the log.  When I'm working a DXPedition in FT8, I can hardly breathe.
  • Terry K8EETTerry K8EET Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Great points, Gerald. JT8 has arrived at the right time. This weekend I had a 9+ noise level on 30 meters right where JT8 should have been.  As it turned out, I worked a steady stream of stations right through the noise. I'm confident JT8 won't **** ham radio. However, I'm still looking forward to getting out of the bottom of the cycle and getting back to the more challenging modes.
  • K3SF .K3SF . Member
    edited October 2018
    Spot ON Gerald

    I am from the 6L6 era (license in 1962 at 14 years old)
    and
    Hamradio lead me into a career working as a contractor for various 3 letter agencies. Where my hobby easily converged with my work.

    I have seen hamradio thrive thru

    ssb vs am
    solid state vs tubes
    computer rtty vs  machine rtty
    no code vs code 
    contest vs nets
    qrp vs qro
    dx nets vs free range dx'ing
    rag chew vs hit-run qso's
    and
    the list goes on and on

    and

    ham radio still thrives


    i have so enjoyed the hobby.
    because the hobby is not battle of one vs the other
    but
    an aggregation of each innovation and mode and technique
    always something new to learn
    and
    that adds to the diversity and growth of a hobby
    allowing for a niche for everyone's interest
    and
    an opportunity to explore them all



    Oh by the way i love my 6600M

    Paul K3SF

    aka KN3VWF, K3VWF
    and
    KR6IE (IE Shima 1969) , KR6VW( Okinawa 1968-1970)






  • Neil D Friedman N3DFNeil D Friedman N3DF Member ✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Need to type fast.  Next FT8 cycle on 40M might bring a call I need.
  • Ned K1NJNed K1NJ Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
       FT8 is another beginning.  I look forward to what will come next.

                              Ned,  K1NJ
  • Brian Morgan VK7RRBrian Morgan VK7RR Member ✭✭
    edited December 2018
    What an interesting set of comments Gerald. Once again you have hit a nerve which has given many thinking hams a chance to express their views. I am an old timer, I think, licensed well over 50 years but I am still keen on new concepts. I still use CW and enjoy it as my primary means of communication. However I am a very keen 6 metre operator. The thrill for me is actually speaking with someone in a new country so when possible I use SSB. Good luck to those who enjoy FT8, but it is not for me.

    Brian VK7RR/4
  • DH2IDDH2ID Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Thank you for the info, Lawrence! I've downloaded and installed JS8call. The problem seems to be that there are not many stations  using this mode - yet.
  • Burt FisherBurt Fisher Member ✭✭
    edited June 23
    FT8 exemplifies the direction of ham radio.
  • Lawrence GrayLawrence Gray Member
    edited October 2018
    It is still being developed.  There are a number of users on 20 and 40.  It you have beacon enabled, this will often result in a QSO.
  • Bob G   W1GLVBob G W1GLV Member ✭✭
    edited June 16
    Very well said Gerald. As far as I'm concerned SSB DX is dead until the sunspots return. The prediction for sunspots returning is about 5-6 years from now according to NOAA. If it were not for FT8 and the other digital modes HAM radio would die. 
  • W7NGAW7NGA Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Not for me, and I see little value added to amateur radio because of FT8. Not that amateur radio makes many demands or challenges in these modern times. I was watching a YouTube video describing the operation of the new Icom 7610. After twenty minutes the presenter turned to his computer screen and said 'And since I started this video I have worked 16 new states on FT8'. All without any apparent human interaction or semblance of creativity. Exciting stuff ... not for me.

    I've worked eight new states and three new countries on FT8 since typing this ... quite the accomplishment. I did find an outlet for being creative however ... I changed fonts.

    Big hobby though ... room for all (unless you try and call CQ on 20-meters on AM).

    W7NGA
    Seaside, Oregon
  • Mike W9OJMike W9OJ Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Good, bad or ugly?
  • Bill -VA3WTBBill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 16
    FT8 does have it's place, another mode. But it used to be that Ham radio was seen as an human interaction activity. My how things are changing.
  • Bob G   W1GLVBob G W1GLV Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Today it's very difficult to make a contact within the continental US. The propagation is good when you start the contact and fades in the middle of the QSO. Not good. Today there is no such thing as human interaction - smartphones texting very similar to FT8 or any other digital mode.
  • Lawrence GrayLawrence Gray Member
    edited October 2018
    The software is publicly available.  The group is just for sharing and reporting issues to the developer.
  • Gene - K3GCGene - K3GC Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Contacts are difficult at minima. so? For me difficult equals greater reward.

    I tried FT8 for a while and found it to be stultifyingly boring. Skill and contacts (SSB) are what it is all about for me.  I have 303 entities logged and every one is more challenging than the one before.  I hope to live long enough to get them all.

    FT8 is not for me but neither is CW or RTTY .

    Ain't it great that there are so many choices for all of us?
  • Ken - NM9PKen - NM9P Member ✭✭
    edited June 23
    Great blog, Gerald.

    I know you didn't want to toot your own horn, but for me, the combination of FT8 and the ease of interfacing it with my Flex6500 with DAX has made it a killer app that helped me finish WAS on 160, 10, 2, & 15 Meters when they were "dead" and DXCC on 80, 12, and other bands that are tough.

    I have been a ham since 1974, but I never made many digital contacts before I got the Flex, other than VHF Packet Radio in the 80's & 90's.  But the 6000 series has made it so easy that I couldn't resist.

    I think both FT8 and modes like it, and new advancements in SDR's will go hand in hand into Amateur radio's history books.

    Ken - NM9P
  • Bill -VA3WTBBill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I just spent two hours on the 40 meter band SSB with friends I talk to mostly every day, I have two other groups that I commonly join on 75 meters every evening. And this all happens when the bands are brocken,,that's not to bad!!
    Oh and that is talking person to person...

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