Give us a Choice with the S Meter

Rex K0KP

Flex S Meter - I'm sure there are many users that would appreciate the ability to have the S meter work as it does in a traditional analog receiver.  The S meter counting empty FFT bins and so forth is fine, as is the receiver being a perfect spectrum analyzer.  That aside the ability to use the S meter as a relative indication of signal strength has been a long held tradition.  So how about a software switch to allow the end user to do this?  50 uv makes S9, kick in 30 db of preamp and the meter reads S9 +30, with 0 db preamp and the antenna disconnected the S meter reads S 0.  Allow the end user to have an S meter the way S meters have worked for decades, not as a precise measurement tool, but a relative reading as it has been with Collins, Yaesu, Kenwood, Icom, and so forth.  I am proposing a software switch to allow the user to have either the "Flex" (so called) precision S meter, or a traditional S meter as the user so chooses.  Any hurrahs here! ??  Come on, I certainly can't be the only one irritated by this!

K6OZY

I assume you have tried clicking on the dBm/S meter in a slice?  It toggles the view from dBm to S meter.

I doubt introducing a "broken" S meter will be considered.   Good thing it's an open API platform and you can write your own meter then!

Bill -VA3WTB

You are irritated from having a lab accurate signal meter? This is the high tech world of Flex radio and direct sampling. your asking for an inaccurate meter on the Flex?  I don't think so..lol

Rex K0KP

I'm probably too dumb to no how OM.  Golly, I like spenting sevral thoosand dolars for an S meter that reeds S4 with know anntena cunected and fer the abilaty to wrote my own softwarz.

AA0KM

Suggested reading>>>>>>

 

https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/why_does_my_s_meter_read_s5_all_the_time

Rex K0KP

Sorry Bill !  This is an IDEA for an OPTIONAL software switch to go from (so called) lab grade to relative.  I doubt there is such a thing as a lab grade S meter anyway, as there are several S meter standards in use.  Who is to say what the lab grade standard is?  Flex is great, but the engineers at Collins, Kenwood, Icom, Yaesu and so forth are not idiots either.  Just saying.  OPTIONAL SWITCH PLEASE!

Bill -VA3WTB

Yup you did, welcome to direct sampling

W7NGA

I always thought my signal report to the other station was a function of how badly I needed their QSL card!

Rex K0KP

The Kool-Aid stand is open.

Rex K0KP

W7NGA - Yup!  You are correct on that OM!  hahaha

OMG what have I started?

Bill -VA3WTB

As it says, not planned.
The engineers at all the companies you mentioned are not idiots as you said. but an SDR radio works in a much different manner then all those radios. And yes you could use the Flex in a lab or a test bench to calibrate other radios and there is a standard. Voltage= S unit.

Lionel

My 75S3 is 100uV for S-9, my R4C is 50uV, my NC-303 I have no idea, and the calibration varies with frequency.

I like the Flex calibrated meter that tells me the signal level at the antenna terminal and seems to be unaffected by frequency and is unaffected by the preamp.  Absolute accuracy, compared to what, I don't know, but it is repeatable.

On the other hand,  S-meters have been somewhat controversial for signal reports for as long as I can remember and the "live" or "liberal" S-meter is important to some.

Your proposal is not one I would request, but for others it may be important.

Rex K0KP

Bill - sorry.  So what is not planned?  Taking suggestive and creative ideas from your customers or taking future purchases?  This is an idea, and no Bill, an S meter should not read S4 without an antenna connected as like you noted there is no voltage at the input!  This is starting to remind me of Gotham antenna claims.  :-)  (Tongue in cheek and in a friendly spirit)

Bill -VA3WTB

I take it you did not read the link posted here for you to read? in that post Steve explains  this in a way most of us can understand.
Without an antenna there is always voltage, internal. The receive bins are always being read,there is always voltage in the bins, they are always active. This is what the meter reflects. This is how direct sampling works in the Flex. It is working correctly as designed.

Not planned simply means what it says, the idea is not planned.

Rex K0KP

Thanks Lionel, I think I am treading very close to being banned from the Flex site for not drinking down the Kool Aid.  :-)  Seriously, I do love my Flex.  Holy Grail?  No.  But very good none-the-less.

Rex K0KP

So you are content with a broken S meter than can't read below S4.  OK ...

Bill -VA3WTB

Rex your comments are always welcome, you think out of the box. I am just trying to help you understand how the meter works in the Flex and why it does and says what it does. It is not a design flaw. And I don't get your comment about cool aid?

Bill -VA3WTB

Rex, to show you how it works try this. Place your mouse over the left edge of the pass band filter and move the filter so as to narrow it up, you will notice the S meter reading will drop as you move it. If you keep going and make as narrow as possible the S meter should read near S 1

The width of the pass band filter reflex how many bins are active and being read.

KY6LA_Howard

@Rex You have legitimately posted your request fir a switch to convert the accurate Flex S-Meter into a more traditional innacurate Relative S-Meter similar to the approximations of signal strength derived from Legacy AGC Loops. Since Flex does not use Legacy AGC loops it might be hard to implement I can understand that many people would gain comfort from the fiction of those readings WHERE no antenna attached implies S0 even though the Minimum Discernable signal is not -127dBm but rather something like -110dBm or S4. Anyways I Always thought all DX and contest signal reports were 5/9 whatever. Hi. Hi. While I personally applauded the demise of legacy S-Meters Let’s see how many likes you get.

KY6LA_Howard

Continuing with the Legacy Fiction S—Meter.
‘

If you receive a S9 or -73dBm signal and add 30dB gain in the preamp. A Legacy AGC loop will read S9+30dB. But your signal really is still -73dBm at the antenna and all the preamp should have done is reduced your noise floor by 30dB.

But again I can understand how people can prefer to enjoy the comfort of the fiction that a preamp makes a received signal at the antenna stronger because lowering the relative noise floor makes it seem so.

Bill Roberts

I and many group members have access to the Wood Box S-Meter which looks like a traditional analog D'Arsonval (sp) meter.  Don't think that's available on the web any longer.  Still, in the direct sampling environment, it mirrors the values displayed on the regular Flex S-meter.

Just for the heck of it, I switched on my IC 7300 which currently sits with no antenna connected.  It does show S-0.  I'm not asking Flex to change their S-Meter.  Apparently, Icom, probably as a cave in to the knob and dial operators, made the decision to carry over the "inaccurate" S-meter tradition to their version of the direct sampling world.

Who needs an S-meter anyway.  The important thing is that you can hear/copy the other station, right?

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

Cheers Bill.   My thoughts exactly.
The comedy here is that on eham.net, a fellow called Zenki goes ballistic all the time for lack of calibrated accurate S-meters on Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood, etc.
But HERE,  Rex wants the old un-calibrated relative style back!   (No offense Rex, but you will make Zenki's head explode :-)   [good entertainment indeed!] )

That said, as mentioned by K6OZY, with the API, there is no limit to the number of third party utilities that people can write and provide.     (In a perfect world, there is also little limit to features that FRS can build into SmartSDR and the firmware, but you do know that FRS does not employ thousands of programmers like IBM or HP?)   Hence, just like with DDutil and SliceMaster and FRstack, it makes perfect sense for some third party to build a general purpose metering application that would let you pick and display all types of metering options for the rig.

Cheers,

Neal

AA0KM

Unplug antenna and leave radio on and software  turn on some light switches and electric motors or appliances you will see the flexradio is very much listening to local noise floor all the time.

Look at the birdies from you router on 6 meters.!

73 Jeff

Rick WN2C

I thought all signals were 5 9 anyway as evidenced in contests. You're 5x9, what's your call!

KY6LA_Howard

AFIK none of the Legacy Radios actually use a calibrated RF Voltmeter at the antenna to measure the true received signal voltage.  (There might be some that I do not know about)

Instead S-Meter readings are derived from the AGC Loop, hence when one adds 30dB preamp gain to the radio, the S-Meter jumps 30dB even though the actually received signal voltage at the antenna has no changed and when one removes the antenna, there is no AGC hence it reads S0 even though the radio cannot read a signal below S4 or -103dBm

But heck if it makes you happy to have a fictitious number give you comfort that your preamp in working or your radio is not hearing anything with the antenna disconnected then by all means vote for this idea.

Wayne

S meter numbers don't matter anyway since no matter what the level your always S-9 just listen to the contests your S9 even though I had to ask for you to repeat your call sign 8 times your signal is S9 maybe my hearings bad ....

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

Hi Howard:

I am also a new Flex 6600 owner, and coming from the analog superhet world, I too was confused at first, actually until yesterday, about the different behavior on the Flex due to the different technology and measurement method.    I would propse that part of this problem, and maybe endless support calls and forum posts, is because FRS has not yet added a chapter to the user manual that is titled  "Coming to Direct Sampling SDR from the SuperHet Analog World?; What is different & What to Expect".    

Such a chapter would have shortened my learning curve by perhaps weeks, and saved a ton of forum posts.
For example, you can see this slow learning curve and confusion here;
https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/6600-maestro-settings-help-needed

Again, the radio works great and has really impressed me as a lab grade tool,
but what I was witnessing, using my previous radios as experience, was not what
I thought.  And without a chapter in the manual, I did not know if I had a problem,
or if it was simply a different design, method of measuring, or what.

So in summary;  It seems that threads like this, and feature requests like this, are
due to people using their previous analog radios as a frame of reference, and thinking
that new SDR radios need to feel/look the same way, else they may be broken.

The solution is having that extra chapter, whereby each and every buyer can easily see the educational material during the first few days of reading.

Cheers,

Neal

KY6LA_Howard

Very Good suggestion

Neal Pollack, N6YFM

You seem to have a point Wayne  :-)

A.  If I am rag chewing with you, and can hear you, I could care less what the S-Meter says.
B.  If I am contesting, yup, it's always S9 replies, so I don't even need to look.

Hmm,  I guess I don't really need one after all!  :-)

But I still think that someone should use the API, and try to make an old analog AGC style
inaccurate relative S-Meter, just to infuriate Zenki and provide new Flex owners with choice.

Cheers,

Neal

KY6LA_Howard

Here is a link to the Woodbox Radio ANALOG S-Meter

https://www.dropbox.com/s/223si9ks962n1av/Smart%20S-meter_V1.6.zip?dl=0 

Looks and feels like one of the Legacy Meters but unfortunately unlike legacy meters it still gives you an accurate reading rather than an AGC Loop Approximation so 30dB Preamp gain does NOT increase the reading at the antenna

Bob K8RC

As I commented on a similar thread in the Facebook Flex group, "If you've got my call right, you're 5-9 or 599." Served me well for over 50 years...