EME with Flex 6500 + Transverter; Rig Control Error using doppler shift in WSJT-X V1.80

Wolf

Running Flex 6500 with V1.11.12 + 70 cm Transverter +WSJT-X V10.0

Just wanted to test the EME capabilities.

WSJT-X has an EME Echo Mode - Doppler Tracking included.
It requires Flex6500 Split Operations.
 
All configured as of the manual but receive a Rig Control Error:



I guess I'm not allone with this challenge . . .
Any idea . . . ?

Thank you !
Wolf - DF7KB

Tim - W4TME

How do you have the "Radio" section configured in WSJT-X?

Tim - W4TME

Also, I'd upgrade to WSJT-X v1.8.0 the final release version and not use any of the previous RC versions.

Jim Gilliam

One very confusing aspect of setting up WSJT-X is the radio settings offers the Flex 6xxx as a radio to choose and will not work. It is necessary to choose Kenwood TS-2000.

Tim - W4TME

Only for a serial CAT.  Selecting Flex 6xxx as the radio and using a TCP connections works fine.

Jerzy Najda

Tim, I have new WSJTX and Flex 6xxx in settings (via TCPiP) not work. Any idea?
73, Jerry HF1D

Tim - W4TME

What frequency is WSJT-X trying to send to the radio?

Wolf

I configured it as Kennwood TS-2000.
It works fine on the HF Bands.

Wolf

Same for me - I have a "clean" Win 10 PC.

Jerzy Najda

None. "Rig control error"

Tim - W4TME

I did a little Googling and found that this Hamlib error had been reported against 1.8.0-RC2 by G4WJS for the IC-7410.  It was determined to be a bug in Hamlib and was fixed and patched.  There is no indication if this was a global fix (for all radios) or specific to the IC-7410.  I am suspecting it is the later.

I think that this may be a Hamlib defect and will need to be reported to the WSJT-X development team.

Wolf

It want's to change the Rx frequency by 800 Hz - that' the actual doppler shift on 70cm.

Tim - W4TME

What is the absolute frequency, not the delta.

Jerzy Najda

Thanks Tim, I think also it is hamlib error not WSJTX

Wolf

It's 432.050 MHz Transverter and 28.050 MHz Flex 6500

Tim - W4TME

I suspect that the Hamlib driver is not properly handling a frequency that large.  I have verified that SmartSDR CAT will properly send and receive frequency data up to 99 GHz

Wolf

OK . . .
Does that mean I need help from WSJT . . . ?

Tim - W4TME

I'd start there.  The issue really is with Hamlib which is used in WSJT-X.

You can try reporting the issue directly to Hamlib too (https://sourceforge.net/p/hamlib/support-requests/)

Wolf

Hi Tim, I found an easy fix. WSJT has a "fake" mode and that does what I wanted.

But . . . another challenge arrived.
It looks like that WSJT doesn't decode signals > 20db with the Flex6500. With my old analog Rig it decodes -28 without any issue. 
And I tried on 70cm and 2m with different transverters - just to check if the HF part is causing it.
After all my test it looks like that the 6500 "absorbs" the small signals.
Any idea  . . . ?
73, Wolf - DF7KB

Sergey R5AU

Wolf, what is noise floor line of your 6500 and noise level with connected transverter (dB on SSDR)?

Wolf

It's -135 (6500 only) and -131 / -132 with the 70cm Transverter.

Tim - W4TME

Are you using a split or common connection for the XVTR?

Wolf

I use a split connection for the transverter.
Rx A for transverter 28 MHz receive and XVTR for 28 MHz send.

Tim - W4TME

Make sure that the AGC-T is set for optimal SNR.

I have not used a XVTR on WSJT, but I find that I can get better decodes on HF if I have the AGC-T set to just below the knee.

From the SmartSDR Software Users Guide, section 13.1

To adjust the AGC Threshold, tune to a quiet spot between stations. Starting with the AGC-T at a high value adjust the AGC-T slider to the left (lower gain values) until the background noise just begins to decrease.  This is the AGC-T "sweet spot" or the "knee" of the AGC algorithm.  Depending on band conditions, if the AGC-T is set below 50, you may have to compensate for the loss in audio gain (volume) by increasing the Slice or master AF volume to a higher value.  When you get the knee and AF volume adjustment correct for the band conditions, it will keep the volume of strong signals constant which will allow weaker signals to be heard even with AGC in FAST mode.

Bill - ND0B

Good luck using your Flex for EME.   When I first got my 6700 it was actually better then the 5k which was excellent.   Then a software upgrade about 2 years ago stopped EME in its tracks, it is my opinion, supported by quite a few observations that at least part of the issue is a problem with DAX.    WSJT now has artifacts there were not there before and rarely decodes anything, CW Skimmer (terrestial) and MAP65 rarely get decodes, CW Skimmer locks up every few days and without careful monitoring digital transmit audio often is garbled requiring a DAX stop and restart.    

With the 5K I had over 250 EME contacts with a single 12 element yagi, for the first few months I had dozens of contacts with the 6700 using the same setup, in the over two years since that fateful software upgrade I have had 4.  I am heard all over the world but rarely hear anything.  

I am in the process of switching over receive to a $20 RTL dongle and SDR Console.   I have found that this combination is both more sensitive and substantially more noise immune that the Flex on 6 meters.  I am in the process of setting this up on 2m am hoping it will translate and I will be able to get back on EME again.  I miss it. 

I am in the process of writing a paper on this if you would be interested in reading it. 

Do not bother telling Flex about this issue like I made the mistake of doing.   You will arrogantly be told you need to learn how to run your radio.

73 de Bill ND0B
Annoyed owner of a not so good $8000 transmitter     

Javi LU5FF

HI Bill very interesting your commentsfrom a while ago I have been doing something of EME in 50Mhz
but they listen to me more than I decode
I attribute it to my noise floor, but I will try to do some listening with another team
thank you very much and I hope your article

Javi LU5FF

John - K3MA

Bill while I do not dispute that you are having issues as it seems you are a much more experienced EME operator than I am.  However, I can tell you that the operation of the Flex 6700 here on 2M EME has not had the same issues as yours.  For example I operated 2M EME JT65B this past weekend in the ARRL EME contest using WSJT v10 and worked 43 stations over a 4 1/2 hour period.  Most in Europe.  A couple were even single yagi stations running less that 1 kw.  Even a contact was made with DX7EME a DXpedition in the Philippines that was running two 8 element antennas and under 1 kw.

I can however say that the DAX issues continue to be a issue that needs to be resolved.  I see it much more often on HF Digital since I operate that mode much more than 2M EME.

I wish you the best in resolving your issue and I am sorry to hear how Flex responded to your concerns.

Wolf

Hi Tim,

I did all of that without any improvement.

Meanwhile I cleaned the PC completely - did a new install of all components - did a factory reset of the 6500.

So everything is fresh. Anyway - no change . . .

 . . . ?

Wolf

Hi John,

We both tried some time ago to get my station run.
By the way thank you for your time !

But until today no luck here. I meanwhile checked all components at least twice. Moved from 2m to 70cm - just to make sure that the HF part doesn't cause the problem. And both setup worked well with my old analog rig.

So I'm getting baffled . . .

73, Wolf - DF7KB

Sergey R5AU

Wolf, could you increase on  >10db signal from  transverter to radio , i hope you will reach success

Tim - W4TME

Unless you have calibrated test equipment to measure the MDS, I would try using a different weak signal mode program like WSPR on 10m and use the RX-A as the receive antenna, bypassing the XVTR to validate the receiver.  If you get similar results, then there may be a hardware issue that needs to be addressed.