Elad FDM-SW2 Software

IW7DMH, Enzo

You still forget the 6000 series is the only SDR rig that can work as is, without a personal computer, even a Raspy. No rig out there can do the same, so, each time, it is like comparing apples and pears.
You may argue if it is (or was) a good idea but people in Flex were aware of this issue and Steve (N5AC) said it clearly in one of its presentations: they had to rewrite all the code, and they did it.
Having said this, my idea about software in Flex 6000, is that ethernet APIs are the great added value for device integration purposes. You can actually do everything from everywhere.
Unfortunately I can't say the same for GUI software. Keeping it closed, force each developer to start from scratch each time he wants to add a feature to SSDR. Actually he can't add any feature to it because he can only develop another external application that runs next to SSDR and honestly, applications that run (have to run) next SSDR are really too much.
I hope they will consider the idea to transform their GUI in a pluggable framework where official sw components can run next to other (community) sw components. Things would be much more interesting in this way, at least for me.

73' Enzo
iw7dmh
 

KC2QMA_John

Hi Enzo, I am no am not comparing radio hardware. I think the Flex 6000 is currently one of the best out there. I am only talking about the GUI SmarSDR.

Mark WS7M

Of the SDR's I know about over the years and I'm not completely aware of all, the primary thing for me is "where the work is done", and "how it is delivered" to the user.  Also, "what are the options"?

In the flex 6000 series the "work" is done in the radio.   I believe (I cannot say for sure) that Apache radio is different in that it is going to deliver some data to the computer which must be crunched by the computer.   I can't speak for the radio in this thread.

Owners of flex 6000 series radios already today are able to work their radios remotely.   I think that will be much harder for radios where the computer has to do some of the work. 

The flex 6000 series delivers all data via Ethernet.  I remember when USB became all the rage.  Everyone was all excited about the speed and flexibility of Plug-n-play. 

During the time USB was coming alive I was a systems integrator using PCs and custom software to implement very large scale factory automation.  USB was a nightmare.  Not only did the plug-n-play in the early days not always work right, but it decided almost on a day-to-day basis to change.  So yesterday my USB device was at some address, then today it would move to different one when the computer was powered on.  It drove us nuts.  Also it had a maximum usable distance of about 15 feet.  RS-232 which it replaced could easily handle distances of 100 feet.   We lost 2 computers to damage because they had to be located so close to large equipment putting out steam, filings, or whatever.

So when I see a "new" radio using USB as its primary connection I cringe and realize also that it would be difficult (not impossible) to use that radio remotely.

If I take a WiFi laptop and I want to sit on my back porch on a hot day and work my radio I like to think of what that takes:

With the flex 6000 series I can pretty much have my radio mounted where I want it. In my shack, base of my antenna, in a closet, or on my desk.  If I can get a network cable to it, and I have a reasonably priced WiFi router or access point, I can now carry my laptop outside, connect up and do voice, cw, rtty, PSK, etc.  Total cost:   WiFi router ($100) 

With a USB based radio now we are talking about extra software and devices to do that same thing.  My options are:

1) Get USB extenders ($50 each) a long network cable $25 then string it outside between my laptop and the radio inside.   Kind of a hassle.
2) Get USB to network devices and software: $100 (or more) Probably need something on the laptop side because their software is looking at USB only.   In fact this might not even work.
3) USB anywhere $100 (I think) is software that will make remote USB look like it is connected to your computer.  But now you have to have a computer running near the radio and your laptop and this software.

In short if a radio is using USB, getting it to work even locally but away from your main station is going to be a challenge and perhaps more expensive.  With a Flex and a WiFi router or access point from Amazon you are up and running pretty much anywhere you have signal.

So yes, their software looks cool.  But the delivery of data makes it a no-go for me.  Also I find the Flex API and the fact that I (as a developer for 30 years) can write my own stuff for the radio to be a huge plus.   I've done USB based development and it is not always as easy as it sounds.

Flex will add to Smart SDR.  If they don't we have the power right there in the current radios we own to come up with killer software.  It just takes someone creating it.  I have a version I'm working on.  I know Walt has something.  We have the iOS stuff.  We have actually more options than Apache, this radio in this thread or just about any other radio.

Just my 2c

G8ZPX

To be this good Elad must have spent 5 years with an army of developers writing, tweaking and beta testing this software before they started selling the radio, right?   

...either that, or feature rich software doesn't take as long to develop as some want us to believe!

K4MT

You are so right. I have had zero problems with his software mods and for those that argue having the computer in the rado is better my powersdr runs at 13% cpu use on a not so fast computer.  Being able to change settings makes powersdr fun to work with and to me is what SDR is about. Experimenting as well as operating.

Ria

Elad has years of experience in the test equipment business. Much of the GUI features mentioned are a result of that.

Ken - NM9P

1) To be sure, the IC-7300 is going to go down as the HW-101 or TS-520 of this era.  It is a good performing, relatively inexpensive rig, with a fairly intuitive control menu.  But it is what it is ...  a good performing mid-level quality rig which is adequate, or even more than adequate, for the average ham.  I have a good friend who loves his.  

But it will not run with the "big dogs" in highly competitive situations - multi-multi contests, high RF level zones, extremely demanding DXin operations, etc.  And it shouldn't be expected to, any more than I would have expected my IC-745 or a TS-430 to compete with a TS-950SDX back in the late 80's/early 90's.

2) The release of V.2.0 is going to be a major milestone for Flex.  But it will not be the be-all and end-all.  Nor should it be expected to be.  It will be the initial release of a new edition of software which will surely be continually improved, as v.1.x.x. has been.  Never judge the total value or potential of a new version release by the initial release.  V.2.0 is the announcement of the direction and goal, not the end of the journey.  Remember- - V.1.10 is a FAR cry different from V.1.0 .  I was part of the "early release" program (pre-v.1.0) beginning in August 2013, and have watched this project grow and develop for almost four years.  My 4 year-old 6500 is still improving and adding new features. And there is no end in sight.  My TS-850 was pretty much the same for 20 years, except for modifications that I did myself (It's noise blanker was useless until I clipped two diodes in the NB circuit.) 

Those who complain of a lack of progress in v.1.x seem to have missed a great many feature additions and performance enhancements that have been released over the past four years.  Or they are only judging "progress" by their narrowly defined set of criteria, centered only upon their pet-peeves or favorite features.  Are there some features that still need to be fixed or enhanced?  Sure!  But there have also been some things released that no one else is doing.  And there will be more to come in the V.2.x.x. series.

3) I finally have my schedule cleared to attend Thursday's Flex Banquet and Friday/Saturday of the Dayton (Xenia) Hamvention.  Hope to see many of you there!

Ken - NM9P

Peter K1PGV

There's a song, popular before I was born, that goes: "It seems to me I've heard that song before." "Elad has very good and capable software... check it out!" Useful and interesting. Thank you for that post. "Flex sucks. SSDR needs more features and I may sell my Flex. Because the software sucks." Not so much. Do people really believe that the same people repeating the same complaints will make the features they want appear faster? Tim?! Can I PLEASE be a moderator? Pretty please? Peter K1PGV

Chris DL5NAM

I hope not. We do not need police men on band - so we also not need here :-) 
We have Tim and that's OK and enough !

Michael Aust

Will this version of PowerSDR by ke9ns v2.8.0.27 work with an LP-Pan2 which I 
uses an external Sound card and my K3 or is only good with a Flex5000 ?

Varistor

Ken, Do you own a 7300? Do you run a high power M/S station? Do you use a tribander that is shared between two radios? I didn't think so. Please clearly label your speculations as such. I do. Side by side with a K3, the 7300 does every bit as well as the K3. No overload even though both radios share the same tribander and run 1500W. Look up the scores of VC3S and VC3A from CQ WW RTTY and CQ WPX RTTY. Compare VC3S (tribander) to K1SFA (a forest of towers).

Ria

Healthy discussion, I think is fine. I am sure FRS dev and management are looking. Sure, there will be a lot of bellyaching, complaining and whining. But within the noise there are ideas they could glean. Does it mean every single request will make it to the roadmap? No, I think that is unrealistic. But it doesn't mean they'll simply dismiss every idea and I believe some of the features in the wishlist here will make it to production releases. 

I like the fact that the forum is lightly moderated. Of course things like personal attacks, fighting and trolling shouldn't be tolerated. But that doesn't mean that every thread that gets heated should be removed. 

I also think that competitive products  should be acknowledged, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeing what other companies have done and how they did it. 

Bill -VA3WTB

That is just simply dumb,,PSDR has been over 15 years in development to this point. SSDR is far more complicated to work on.

Gary L. Robinson

Writing code for PowerSDR is a LOT easier than writing code for more slices and receivers in the 6000 architecture.  It rapidly becomes more of a challenge with all those slices and several receivers (in 6700).   It's especially a challenge NOT to introduce subtle bugs with all the processes going on.

Not to say that is the only reason software development is slow at FRS for the 6000 series.  Another reason is that their ham radio business is a small part of their business - not the main part.  My understanding is that their commercial business is their bread and butter.  At least that is what I have heard.  There are most likely other reasons why their software development is slower and I  suspect that software labor costs plays a part in that.

In any event I can see why many folks are upset but personally I would not trade my 6300 for any other rig except another Flex perhaps.  If I had the money though I would like to try a few others as a second rig :-) 

Peter K1PGV

"Healthy discussion" and "conflicting opinions" and "discussions about competing products" are terrific. Let's have some of that. Please. I just find the repeated whining over perceived SSDR UX and feature inadequacies tiresome. We had no less than two such (lengthy) threads in the past 60 days, where all these same points were made. Does anybody seriously think making these points one more time adds anything to the discussion? Hmmm..... apparently so. And, also apparently, I'm the only one who finds this whinging beyond tedious. OK... point taken. It's my problem, and I will respectfully bow out of the thread. My sincere apology for my unwelcome interjection.

Mark_WS7M

Well I have always found your posts to be intelligent, insightful and for me very welcome.  So I suggest you keep doing what you are doing.

Remember the internet is a strange place.  It is so easy to hide behind our computer screens, type stuff we'd probably never say to someone's face.   Emotion gets lost when typings just words!

So lets all remember we are human, share some common interests and we are all on this planet together!

Michael Coslo

I'll take a bit of a opposite approach. Imagine if Flex implemented and immediately brought out every new feature demanded!  Imagine haveing to relearn everything every couple months. Imagine a feature that you like going away because someone else thought that something different was the best way to go.  I have already had people say they won't buy one because it's too complicated, and while the Maestro is nice, it certainly isn't as capable as the computer based radio. So now others want to essentially scrap SmartSDR because they believe another interface is better. And scrap it again and again?

I like the idea of the paid updates, and a few in between.  If SmartSDR and the FlexRadio is not adequate, There are several other options.

KY6LA_Howard

@Peter Like you I find the rather juvenile whiners to be tiresome ,but I have long given up wasting my time debating them. Life is too short! Even if every possible imaginable feature had been implemented the whiners would still find something to **** about. That is how they get their jollies. ' Just save your energy enjoy the hobby. And ignore the whiners. Like all trolls, if no one responds they will crawl back in their holes and look for soothing else to **** at.

Michael Coslo

Sure - if you want to find out about the radio, that's good. If you have a question about the interface, and even if you like another better, a comparison is fine. But the original post said that SmartSDR was not good, with old features,  and that Flex was sitting on their laurels because the radios have been out five years now. Don't be too surprised if people come to the defense of their favorite radio. 8^)

KC2QMA_John

Funny thing is when you complain that you don't like all the whining.... That’s Whining.

Michael Coslo

I agree Mark, and Peter, These sort of posts need called out, because if they aren't, it looks to the honest onlooker that  SmartSDR is a bad and outdated program, and that FlexRadio Systems is unresponsive.

And nothing could be further from the truth.

KC2QMA_John

I think this post has gone way off track.

1. I like the 600 series hardware.

2. Like many other would like to see a little bit more resources dedicated to SmartSDR.

3. This is NOT a comparison of radios Just SOFTWARE clients.

We are talking about SmartSDR for windows software NOT the HARDWARE!

And because people don't actually read the original post here is a Reminder.

I find it amazing how many features the Elad FDM-SW2 software has already and is just a few years old, although the hardware is not as good as a flex the software shows just how far SmartSDR has to go as far as customization and User interface features.

Again this is NOT to say a FDM-Duo is a better radio it is to show that SmartSDR has a long way to go in terms of features and user customization.

In May 2017 SmartSDR and the 6000 series will be over 5 years old and is still only at Ver 1.10 and will jump to Ver 2 but will it be even close in terms this level of features & customization?

Yes I know WAN is coming in Ver 2 and that's great but will that be it, I guess will just have to see...

-

Hi Ria, I like all of the things you mentioned.

This is a few of the things I like...

1. User definable Band preset BUTTONS.

2. User definable Color coded slice receivers.

3. User definable Movable and dock-able windows.

4. User definable AGC(T) parameters.

5. User definable Receive filter presets.

6. Shows frequency at courser position.

7. Data values shown next to all sliders and buttons all of the time, Not just when you hover the mouse courser.

8. Extensive recording & playback features such as Audio with ability to save files, I&Q audio and much more.

9.info display showing Spectrum & waterfall displays. (Span width, FFT Resolution, Scale, Averaging level.

10. Many values shown in dBm scale.

11. Full use of right mouse button. (Right Click Windows)

12. Handy built-in log book.

13. Ability to lock slice’s to center of screen so you can scroll pan adapter.

14. Squelch for each receiver slice for all modes.

15. Ability to tune with Keyboard.

16. Lots of use of Shift, Ctrl, & Alt buttons. (Eg. Shift+Drag)

17. Measurement markers, Delta Markers.

18. Audio spectrum & FFT windows.

19. FREE Wireless Android app.

20. Ability to customize UI colors.

I could go on and on but you can clearly see from this one video how far behind SmartSDR is it terms features. And in this video David only shows a fraction of what the software is capable.

Now one last thing I know there will be some that say that the screen is to busy and for some that may be true BUT SmartSDR could have a menu option for “Standard Display” for a simplified UI like it is now Or an “Advanced Display” for those more advanced users that like to see more status info at a glance. This way all users would be happy.

Again this is NOT to say that the FDM-Duo is a better radio it’s to show how far SmartSDR needs to go in terms of features Only.

I hope Version 2.0 is not just about WAN I hope we see a lot more features such as these Especially for the $200 they expect us to fork over for V.2.

Again keep in mind the 6000 series is over 5 years old and the software is only at 1.10 and to jump to 2.0 soon as a $200 paid version? At the current software development pace by the time we see features like this the radio will be Old and obsolete.

Either FRS makes software development a real priority and hires a bunch more software developers or the competition will **** them by quickly. You can only be a leader if you stay ahead of the competition. The 6000 series is awesome and has great potential but it’s the Software that’s holding it back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3AWOG94w1Q

KM6CQ - Dan

This does raise a valid question, how much longer will my 5 year old hardware keep up with new releases of SSDR? I'm sure new and faster hardware is on the way with more capacity. 
There must be a point where this hardware becomes like an old ipad that can no longer run the latest version of IOS. This seems to be true of anything with chips in it since we were introduced to the calculator back in the 70's.

Dan KM6CQ

Ken - NM9P

Dan, the reason that older iPads cannot run later versions of IOS is that the later versions of IOS are written for newer versions of iPads. As long as SSDR is written FOR the 6000, it will RUN on the 6000. The software doesn't take on a life of its own.. the platform, however has lots of overhead and will be effective for a good while. Certainly it won't become obsolete as quickly as standard tablets, smartphones, and computers. But, indeed, someday FRS will decide to release a new model that will require a new branch of software. And who knows if it will be backward compatible?

KM6CQ - Dan

One thing I appreciate about the 6500 and Elecraft products is that the manufacturers have kept them current with new hardware and firmware releases. 
With my 6500 I used it a year until DAX was introduced.  Then I was able to get rid of the 3000 and some other rigs. DAX has far surpassed every method I used up until that point. 
At first we only had a spectrum display and SSB/CW was all we could operate.
It has become very nice now. I think 2.0 will take us from being a full featured rig into something no one else is doing. 

Dan

Norm - W7CK

Dan,

You are correct and I will agree.  One thing about the 6000 and SmartSDR is that we have some features no other radios on the market offer or can offer.  I sometimes get impatient with missing features and get caught up in what we don't have.  I need to start appreciating what features we do have.  Thank you.

km9r.mike

Yes good score but how does using a single transmitter (as per your 3830 write up ) and being limited to ten band changes defend your argument for the ability of your little gem to withstand a high rf m2 environment ? As you know using a single transmitter again as per your 3830 write up and a tribander and an amp is just that a single radio and a tribander and an amp. If I am not mistaken , Ken does have an amp and enough antennas for separate  bands so he is indeed familiar with being able to operate high power on an adjacent band while utilizing full duplex and a single radio. Congrats with your record score for Canada.

Scott N8UMW

I beg to differ. I have an Anon 200D and like the Flex Signature series, all it needs is that network connection. It can be controlled by a PC or a remote app on Android(PC need not be on and running) or the remote that they have now which is set up very similar to a Maestro. As far as the remote phone/tablet app, it's android only, but the flex smart sdr is iOS only.

Scott N8UMW

I personally don't want them to scrap smart sdr. I like the layout and the more modem look. It works well and I've had very few problems compared to many flex owners. I do think that adding some features back into the software under an advanced menu would be nice. None the less, I won't be dumping by flex any time soon. I think that a bit more progression of features would be nice though.

Tony Hateley

Got rid of my maestro,fed up of waiting for updates,and the 6500 will be going as soon as I get my 7610,I for one will not be led up the garden path with promise after promise.