After "Transmit slice not selected" Flex do not follow N1MM in SO2R CW a while

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP

I have got 6700 to play almost 100 % with N1MM with SO2. However, when using Ctrl F1 to switch "F1 CQ.." transmission to other slice N1MM follows correctly the command but 6700 stays on its present RX focus slice as no command was sent. This happens almost always after a warning has popped up on Smart SDR "Transmit slice not selected". Next TX session it shifts to correct slice. Anyone noticed this?
I have configured 10 ms delay of "Focus helpe" on Radio setup. 
Happy easter,
Kari SM0HRP  

Tim K9WX

Kari, did you ever resolve this?  I have seen the same warning (Transmit slice not selected) and also this warning:



This occurs when I interrupt the outgoing CW message on one slice to send a CW message on the other slice.  N1MM+ and a Flex 6600, SSDR 2.2.8.

Tim K9WX

Andy - KU7T

I can also repro this with my 6600M and need to debug and fix this. Do you use external WinKeyer or Flex's Winkeyer? 73, Andy KU7T (N1MM+ dev team)

N2TTA

Same problem here https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/flex-6600m-and-n1mm-so2r-not-working-properly

Tim K9WX

My testing today, resulting in the slice not switching properly, was using an external Winkey.  I had been using an internal Winkey but tried the external because of the problems I was having with a doubling or duplication of the sidetone as reported in https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/duplicate-sidetone?topic-reply-list%5Bsettings%5D%5... 

See my 52 second long YouTube video at the above link for an illustration of what I mean when I say "duplicate sidetone."

Using the external Winkey eliminated the duplicate sidetone but has introduced the problem of the slice not switching properly. 

N1MM behaves as I would expect in either case. 

In summary: with the external Winkey the Flex will sometimes not switch to the other slice and TX there when commanded to by N1MM.  With the internal Winkey the Flex will switch and TX on the other slice but there is an echo or duplicate sidetone. In either case, the problem occurs when I use N1MM to interrupt a message being sent on the first slice to TX a message on the second slice.

I'm trying to decide now which problem I would prefer to live with during this weekend's NAQP CW.

Tim K9WX

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP

Hi Tim, yes it dissipeared with the internal winkeyer. Never went back to the external keyer. But I will try to test later today for you.

Andy - KU7T

Tim, 
N1MM+ team is looking at this, but I am not sure how fast this can be fixed. In terms of this weekends contest, if it is not fixed by then, is it an option to use the Flex WinKeyer emulation with side tone off?

73,
Andy
KU7T

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP

Hi Tim, I have just concluded tests with the external Winkeyer. I am sorry to say but the problem with "Transmit slice not selected" remains. I wonder what effects this. Are there some settings that are not correct. I remember that this fault was less of a problem with Writelog. I will test tomorrow. 73s Kari

Tim K9WX

Thanks, Andy, I plan to use the internal Winkey emulation this weekend. 

One other CW thing I have noticed (this is with SSDR 2.2.8 and N1MM+ 1.0.7230, although this goes back several weeks so is not new in N1MM+ 1.0.7230) is that I can't change CW wpm speed while a message is being sent.  Hitting the Page Up and Page Down keys changes the wpm speed in the N1MM+ Entry Window, but the actual output speed of the keyer does not change.  Once the outgoing message finishes, subsequent messages are sent at the new speed.  This includes CQs when CQ repeat is enabled: if I want to start calling CQ faster or slower I can change the speed mid-message with the Page Up and Page Down keys and this change is reflected in the Entry Window but the actual output speed will not change until the current CQ finshes and the next CQ starts.

Tim K9WX

Andy - KU7T

I have been playing with this some more tonight. It really seems to be some timing issue. Can anyone of you do a simple test for me please? 

Use an external genuine WinKeyer (not Flex emulation) and use these settings (write your original settings down...):

- Configurer/Hardware tab: uncheck Set PTT via Radio command CW for both Radio COM ports
- Configurer/Hardware tab: set PTT delay to 20ms for Winkey COM port
- Configurer/Winkey tab: set 2nd CW for Pin 5, 1 for lead time, 1 for tail time
- Config/SO2R settings/Set minimum SO2R switchover time to 30 ms
- Set Delay to 0 in radio transmit settings.

Can you still reproduce this issue, or does the switching between the slices work with these settings?

Thanks and 73,
Andy
KU7T

Tim K9WX

Andy: I'm not familiar with the "radio transmit settings."  Is that an N1MM setting or an SSDR setting?

Tim K9WX

Andy - KU7T

SSDR. Full break in QSK.

Andy
KU7T

Tim K9WX

Duh.

I will try these settings in the 1900z CWT.

Tim K9WX

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP

Hi Andy! It works now with no swiching anomalities like reported before!! Great work! 
I had previously SO2R switch time to 10 ms. And 0 for leadtime and 0 for tail time.
73s and lots of thanks for the assistance. I owe you  now some "Mjöd" (= type of bear made of honey by the Vikings).   

Tim K9WX

Andy: I tested your suggested settings two ways.

First test was running N1MM+ with SSDR 2.2.8.  Everything appeared to be fine.  The radio always followed N1MM+ when I interrupted a message on the first slice or radio to send a message on the second slice or radio.  Never saw the pop up warning about transmit slice not being selected or TX slice may not be changed while transmitting.  I played with different delay settings (from 0 to 200) as I don't care for QSK in an SO2R setting and the delay setting did not seem to make a difference.  I was not in an operating situation so I was transmitting into dummy loads and figure I probably ran through 50 or so interrupt cycles with no problems.

Second test was running N1MM+ with a Maestro in the 1900Z CWT.  Once again the radio always followed N1MM+ when I interrupted a message on the first slice or radio to send a message on the second slice or radio.  However in this case I did occasionally (25% of the time?) see the two warning message pop up in a little box in the top center of the Maestro screen early on.  It did not seem to affect operation, however, since the radio was following N1MM+, and as I focused my attention on the contest I soon stopped noticing it.  Once again I played with the delay setting and it did not seem to make a difference.  I made 104 QSOs in the CWT so I would guess I had nearly that many interrupts during the hour. 

I will also mention that, using the external keyer, I WAS able to change CW speed while a message was being sent (see my post from earlier today) and I did NOT hear the duplicate sidetone that I mention in https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/duplicate-sidetone?topic-reply-list%5Bsettings%5D%5...

Tim K9WX

Andy - KU7T

Tim, Kari,
thanks for testing and responding here. I guess these timings are more critical with a Flexradio than with other radios, but I am glad we found the good settings.  Just for others that may read this, for SO2R with Flex radios and N1MM+, these settings seem to work well:

- Configurer/Hardware tab: uncheck Set PTT via Radio command CW for both Radio COM ports
- Configurer/Hardware tab: set PTT delay to 20ms for Winkey COM port
- Configurer/Winkey tab: set 2nd CW for Pin 5, 1 for lead time, 1 for tail time
- Config/SO2R settings/Set minimum SO2R switchover time to 30 ms
- Set Delay to 0 in radio transmit settings (full break in QSK).

I usually do not QSK and was under the impression a small delay was better than a long delay. Since you said it does not make a difference, I will have to go back and verify. Will report back here when I know more. 

Thanks
Andy
KU7T

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP

Hi again, I just tested with both SDR 2.2.8 and Maestro. Could not see any difference in performance. It works just as it should. Very efficiently. I was using the external genuin Winkeyer for the CW keying. I plan to write a tutorial for us with screenshots of config menys.
The difference Tim reported in Maestro I could not repeat after some 130 switching times between slice A and B. 
See a video here: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCaPg8WLNhE

Jon_EA2W

Hi Kari,

Thank you for the video, now SO2R seems to work pretty well!
I´m wondering how the RX audio management works with N1MM+ and a 6700 or 6600. Could you please explain how to control the audio you want to hear at each time? Is it possible to configure the RX audio to your needs? Do you control the audio using Tilde key (Stereo ON-OFF) in N1MM or is there any other way?

The scenarios I usually need during a contest are:
SCENARIO 1:
- If no TX, RX1 in left ear, RX2 in right ear,
- While TX1, RX2 in both ears
- While TX2, RX1 in both ears

SCENARIO 2:
- If no TX, RX1 or RX2 in both ears
- While TX1, RX2 in both ears
- While TX2, RX1 in both ears

Your comments will be much welcome!

Best regards,

Jon, EA2OT

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP

Hi Jon, 
Yes I use two methods to control audio. First tilde (or EU keyboard equivalent) to toggle between stereo or mono. Then I use the N1MM SO2R functions "swap to other" and "focus on other" which makes the entry window to swap to other transmit window (after CQ message ended) where CQ was initiated. Mean while you have the entry window audio in both ears. Really quite near scenario one. Unfortunately you cannot tailor it more. 
But one big advantage is that you may, while answering or typing on one entry window (say slice initiate a CQ on slice A with Ctrl+F1 while not leaving the entry window (slice . This could be whatever F message actually.  I do not know of any logger that makes it this handy. 
DXLog will allow you to custom design the audio as you want. I have tested a beta release but it did crash a few times during contest so I have out it on hold.  
73s Kari

Jon_EA2W

Thank you for your answer Kari!

I have been using N1MM+ with 2 radios for a while. I use 2 keyboards one for each radio which helps a lot to avoid mistakes when you are getting more tired during a contest. Ctrl+F1 is really very nice, but I suggest that you try with a second keyboard.

I was asking all these questions about how to control the audio because actually I use a Microham u2R for audio management, so I just put N1MM in "Stereo Mode" and the rest is managed with the external device. I will take a closer look to the "swap other" and "focus other" options. I was using them before having 2 keyboards but just for cursor focus, not for the audio.

I wonder if a 6600M or 6700 will handle a full 48 hours contest dueling CQs with 100W... that´s one of the doubts that keeps me out of using just one radio instead of the two I´m actually using.

Thank you for your help!

Best regards,

Jon, EA2OT

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP

Hi Jon, ok I see. I don not think N1MM supports two keyboards though. I have been using my 6700 now for several big contests (latest WPX w 1650 Q/700 mult) running SO2R for abt 36 hours per contest. No problem whatsover. You may know K9CT he uses 5-7 Flex radios in multi op set up. Another major advantage is the simplified LAN or USB steering of amplifiers, antenna switches e t c. My station is since 5 years back totally remote controlled without any PC:s at remote radio site. This requires a simplified and risc minimized technology scheme. At least for a 48 hour contest

Jon_EA2W

Hi Kari,

I have been using 2 keyboards in N1MM+ for a while, I suggest to give it a try, it makes a big difference! You can read about this option in the following link:

http://n1mm.hamdocs.com/tiki-index.php?page=SO2R+-+Single+Operator+Two+Radio+Operation

8. SO2R Menu
Two Keyboards - Plug in two keyboards before starting N1MM+. The first keyboard you type in controls the left Entry Window. Other keyboard controls right Entry Window. Pause key is disabled. key moves to Entry Window associated with that keyboard.

I also have been using a Flex 6300 remotely with a VPN in some contests with good reliability since 3 years ago in SO1R, but when I want to use 2 radios for SO2R operation in a contest I operate on-site just to avoid issues. That´s why the 6600 or 6700 may be very interesting to me, because as you said they are a major advantage and simplifies the 2 radio layout a lot and operating SO2R remotely will be very easy. I didn´t made the change for the moment because I knew there were some issues with delays and anoying audio clicks, but now I see it´s solved!

I know from using the Flex 6300 that it can handle a 48 hours test at full power with no issues, but dueling CQs (also called 2BSIQ by CT1BOH http://www.qsl.net/c/ct1boh//2bsiq/) is like using the radio full duty, the radio is almost all the time transmiting. I supose these radios are designed to handle full duty as the PXL amplifier is, but this is now my only fear.

Thank you again for the very interesting thread!

Best regards,

Jon, EA2OT (EF2A contest call)

Tim K9WX

Kari: could you describe how you have things connected on your LAN? 

Do you connect to a switch or a router, or maybe both? 

And if there is a router involved, do you connect the Maestro with WIFI or cable?

Tim K9WX

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP

Hi Tim, 
This is my set up:
http://remotedxandcontestblog.sm0hrp.se/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Remote-SO2R-SM0HRP-1.jpg

I use a 4G mobile router to the Dlink 24 port switch.
The Maestri is hard wired to the LAN at home or remote QTH. It is more reliable than wifi. 
73s Kari SM0HRP 

Andy - KU7T

Thanks everyone for testing and helping to find some good configurations to have external WinKeyer play nice with N1MM+ and Flex in a SO2R scenario. 

Just to close the loop and report back, I think we can live with the values as described above. 

Still, I think there is a Flex software issue at play here. I my case, the Flex QSK delay setting has a huge impact on this working correctly or not. If I set my delay to below 100, all is great, but if I increase it, the switching of TX focus starts failing as described above. I think setting the QSK value to a lower value is doable as a workaround, but I will be submitting a software issue report so it can be looked at.

73,
Andy
KU7T (N1MM+ dev team member)

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP

Thanks Jon for all valuable thoughts. I will check two keyboards eventhough I am sceptic to more hip movement. About duty cycle I have not heard any reports indicating that the flex 6000 series would not handle 100 % CW cycle. Look forward to working you in the up coming contests. Hasta luego, Kari SM0HRP

Tim K9WX

Thanks for the follow up, Andy.  I can report that in yesterday's NAQP CW, in over 800 QSOs, I did not have any problems using your recommended settings and an external WinKeyer.  I did occasionally see the pop up warning on the Maestro but the slice always switched when I needed to interrupt a message on one slice to send a message on the other slice.  It would be nice if we can get to where a longer delay (i.e., not full QSK) can be accommodated but, for now, we are in a good spot.

I did notice one other thing while operating yesterday, don't know if it is related or not, but seems to suggest some sort of disconnect between N1MM and the Flex when it comes to how the slice focus is handled in SO2R.  There were a number of times that I would be calling CQ on slice B with slice A in S&P mode and decide I wanted to check for activity on another band using slice A.  I would click on the appropriate band panel button on the left side of the slice A Entry Window to cause that slice to QSY.  Sometimes this would work as expected and all was fine.  Sometimes I would get the pop up window that either says "TX slice may not be changed while transmitting" or "Antenna may not be changed while transmitting" but the slice would still QSY. A couple of times the CQ message that was being sent on slice B would be transferred mid-message to slice A.  Testing just now, I get similar results if I type a new frequency into the slice A entry window and hit the Enter key instead of clicking on the band panel button.  I soon learned that I needed to wait until the message had finished on slice B before doing the QSY on slice A, which always worked fine.  So this is not a hot issue for me, I share it just to add some info to the overall puzzle.

Tim K9WX

Steve-N5AC

Andy contacted me directly about the QSK setting so I've entered an issue (#6556) for our team to go have a look at this.  The likely scenario is that we made a decision not to allow a switch when the transmitter is on rather than just shutting off the transmitter and switching.  I'll post back here as we find out more.

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP

Great Steve, very much appreciated. I can do some testing if you want with WriteLog, DXlog and N1MM. 
73s Kari SM0HRP

Kari Gustafsson SM0HRP

Hi Jon, 
I have tried two keyboards and looks very promising. Sorry you can not get the full 2BSIQ ear phone scheme with two earphones between switching TX slots between radios. The back to radio1 or 2 in both ears automatically. "Time slot 4" as Jose calls it.Or have you solved it another way?  

Jon_EA2W

Hi Kari,

Thank you again for the feedback. I can´t tell you how to solve the audio switching issue because I "still" don´t own a 6600 or 6700. I will really appreciate if you can continue with some more tests. I have been using a 6300 for almost 3 years but I just sold it to buy a new one. The purchase decision of a 6600 will depend on these audio switching capabilities.

As I explained before, I have been doing 2BSIQ operation during the last 3 CQ WW CW using 2 radios and a Microham u2R. With this device it is possible to configure the audio you want to hear at each "QSO moment". The configuration I was using is as follows:
- Stereo audio selected on N1MM+. If no TX, RX1 in left ear, RX2 in right ear
- Microham receives the info from the 2 radio´s PTTs from N1MM. When TX1, RX2 in both ears. When TX2, RX1 in both ears.

Could you please try to make the following tests?

Test 1:

Please configure N1MM in SO2R operation, create 2 different radios with one CAT asigned to each one ot them (Slice A = Radio 1 with CAT1 asigned, Slice B = Radio 2 CAT2 asigned). Then choose Stereo mode with tilde key and select "Swap other" and "Focus other", and very important, select "Run" on both radios as well.

At this moment, if no TX, you shall be hearing both radios in Stereo (Slice A on left ear, Slice B on right ear), is that correct?

Then, if TX1 you shall hear RX2 on both ears (or are you hearing RX2 just on right ear?) Opposite situation when TX2... This audio switching is happening with the help of "Swap other" or "focus other" I´m not sure which one of them (Sorry I can´t test it at this moment on N1MM).

Test 2:

If the previous test is not working as expected, please try using "Dueling CQ" feature of N1MM with "Ctrl+B".  An extract from N1MM manual explaining what "Dueling CQ" mode does:

Dueling CQ's will send CQ alternately on each radio (Ctrl+B)

• If dueling CQ's is enabled, and CQ sent then both radios become Run radios
• Ctrl+F1 or Ctrl+Enter will not start Dueling CQ
• Dueling SSB and CW CQ's (different modes in each Entry window) are supported
• When you disable Dueling CQs, the pre-existing SO2R options are restored

I hope one ot these 2 ways to operate 2BSIQ will work! Cross my fingers.

Please let me know if it works.

Thank you!

Jon, EA2OT