Rural Mode Needed for V2.0 SSSR for slow Internet users < 500Kbytes/sec for Remote Control

mikeatthebeach .

There are some of us Flex 6xxx users that live in Rural Area's with not enough 
Internet Speeds < 500KBytes/sec 

Some would like to Remote Control their Flex Radio's 6xxx series without the need for 
Spectrum Scope & Waterfall.

Yes, I turned the fps to 1 and Display off, but that is not enough when trying VPN to a 
Flex 6xxx radio that on a Rural Slow DSL Internet 

Be nice if Flex had a switch in SSDR for those with Slug Slow Internet

Just wanted Frequency Control and Tx & Rx Control and some basics 

My friend K3 & K3 Mini works on Rural Internet Speeds of < 500Kbytes/sec 

Another ham friend has his Kenwood TS-480SX with Remote Rig off Rural
Internet Speeds of < 500Kbytes/sec

Yes, SSDR looks great at 100Mbytes/second but I like to see a scaled down 
version for those with Slug Slow Internet Speeds that want to remote their Flex
Radio's

A switch in V.2.0 would be great for those with Slow Rural Internets and no need to see 
Spectrum Scope & waterfalls, etc that eat up Bandwidth and Data Speeds

Any comments welcome ! 

73 Mike

Ria

Sounds like a good idea. Maybe a "minimal" mode. I don't know if anything can be done about latency, eg if you are using satellite Internet. 

I would imagine that some kind of optional compression can be added to further reduce audio bandwidth requirements and it can be turned off/on as needed. 

Mike va3mw

Mike

I have done a lot of work on remote use of Flex radios.  I also do own a TS480 with remoterig at the same site.  Remote Rig is better, but not perfect.  (BTW, I have been doing this for over 10 years) .

Can you run this test http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest at DSLreports and let me know what your bufferfloat setting is?  Also, make sure your MTU value on your router is set to the correct value.  This is super critical.  http://www.tp-link.com/us/FAQ-190.html.  Most routers can handle this.

I had problems with my Bufferbloat rating was D or worse.  I was dropping about 0.5% packets.  Now, I routinely get a B value and I have 0.01% dropped packets to my Maestro while remote.  In the last 24 hours, I dropped only 100 packets.  That is an amazingly low number.

Welcome to the world of networking.  Any one can plug and play and connect to the internet.  To get your full value, each installation needs to be customized.

If you don't have time to tune, you could try an IQRouter.   http://evenroute.com/.  I would install one, but they do not ship to Canada.  This will really help your situation.  Spend some time on their website and I think you will find they present some very good data that will help you out.  

I 100% agree with their comments on WIFI range extenders and why they fail so much.  Short story, make sure you are not using any Wifi range extenders (I know, that is not critical to this discussion, but it is important).


73 es HNY,

Mike va3mw

Mike va3mw

Hi Ria

A few months ago, I did make an Alpha Team request for a slimmed down data stream.  They are aware of it.  It is just a matter of scheduling.  

Mike

Ria

I've heard rumors along that line that compression would be part of the WAN setup. It would make sense for them to do that. If it's lossless, great. As long as we don't end up sounding like robots I'm cool. 

I've been trying various remote setups off and on since I got back into HF, since about 2006. I had a skype/HRD setup for a long time before I went Flex. Even used RemAud and ran it under WINE for my work PC. I found that lossy compression for communications was optimized for noise free speech and not necessarily what you'd find on amateur radio HF. 

I suspect though that a good compression solution may require hardware similar to the DV Dongle, if only due to patent issues with the codecs. 

Mike va3mw

Over the past decade, I have tried EVERYTHING!    I mean it.  HRD, Skype, RemAudio.  Skype was the best, but you had to tune it.  RemoteRig is darn good as well (I have 2 pair of them).  RemoteRig ran about 100kb/s.  Using Skype for audio was about 50 or less if I remember correctly.

However, since I spent the holidays tuning my router at the remote end, I am now super pleased with my performance.  And, that is from a Rural setting from a small cable company. I am at the end of a 30 mile long cable.  

Regardless of what Flex does, those operating remote are going to have to do some tuning to get some good results.  All this helps to reduce the latency and jitter issues.


73, Mike 

Bill -VA3WTB

I believe Flex said in a post some place that compression will happen at one end the opened up at the other end.

Ian Moore

Fascinating thread - I get F grade Bufferbloat so obviously not great. Is there a recommended what/how/when resource to advise on the "tuning" you refer to Mike? the IQ routers are not available in the UK either, apparently. 
HNY es 73, Ian GM4KLN

Mike va3mw

Let me see if I can glue together.  What router do you have?  You may need to get to one that can run DD-WRT or OPENWRT.

Mike VE3CKO

Hams and our antenna farms as big or as small as they are, are certainly not always in a cable/fiber/dsl friendly area. I'm in the business of providing people in rural areas better internet. There are those stuck in technology dead zones or who won't change from out-dated technology, streaming youtube difficult, impossible to NetFlix most of the time, no way SmartSDR will run reliably on those kinds of connections without reducing components deemed unnecessary for essential communication to the FlexRadio server. I would not be surprised FRS has considered this and may already have a plan on how and when to introduce this after WAN capability is released. A network dumb mode checklist of items to disable/enable, makes perfect sense.

Ian GM4KLN

Netgear D7000 - about 6 months old. 

Mike va3mw

Hi Ian

See if you can replace the firmware with OpenWRT on that model.  If you can, then we can do some tuning.  You may have to do some Googling.

If not, see if you have the ability to turn on QOS.  You'll have to do some playing.  Gamer sites have a lot of great information on router tuning.  

Mike

Mike va3mw

One thing that I failed to mention and that is to ensure you are not using DAX or CAT while remote if you can.  They do add overhead.

Mike

Ian GM4KLN

thanks Mike - will do some digging. can only improve things!
73, Ian

mikeatthebeach .

This is my Slug Slow Internet 

73 Mike

Mike va3mw

Wow, not good.    What are you paying for?  Do you know?  You should see at least close to what your ISP is charging you for.

Check out those messages at the bottom about alien scripts.  That is critical as well.

Mike

Mike va3mw

This might help:  https://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/start

Ria

I use PfSense and CoDel which is built in. Works pretty well. I have a 100/10 line from the cable company and the node is about 1 mile away. 

Mike va3mw

I think I am going to try PFSense tonight and see how it goes.  

Ken - NM9P

Things that I have found that reduce data load.... 1) turn off DAX feeds from the remote rig. 2) turn display FPS down to between 1-6. 3) turn waterfall rate down low, or off. If you wish, also drag the waterfall/panadapter screen divider all the way to the bottom. 4) drag your SSDR window to make it more narrow. Height doesn't matter as much, but width uses more bandwidth. It is amazing how much bandwidth things like DAX Mic Stream, DAX IQ, and other DAC streams add to the bandwidth. Also the waterfall seems to consume a lot if the rate is high I have been able to operate remotely occasionally with just under 500 Kb/s. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. My UVerse dsl is often quite variable. Ken - NM9P

L.Kubis

For those that may not be aware Expert Electronics,  SunSDR just announced their WAN capable Remote Control system for RX only at the present time, with TX to follow.

 http://sunsdr.eu/expertsdr2-update-1-1-3/

In their manual they allow the user to choose the B/W for RX between 70Kbs to 1Mbs depending on the quality of their connection.

I have seen my friend's ColibrDDR-SDR RX run with the 70Kbs B/W option with full spectral display,control and audio over the WAN and I must say it was very good. Mind you it was over a good internet path so it would be degraded on a true skinny one.

The point is that it is possible to run SDR's over skinny circuits, just requires some compression and ingenuity.

HNY
Lloyd
VE3ERQ

BTW -- I own and  run a 6500 remote and have owned most of the Flexes so far.

Mike va3mw

Hi Lloyd

I would like to see their actual raw data flow results as it will take more than compression to provide a seamless operation.  

Flex kindly provides raw data results on lost packets which is very helpful for testing and tuning.  Others do not and just hide it.  It would be helpful to see their latency numbers as well.  

Compression is not the simple answer here if people think that is all it will take.  Lots of homework to do.  

73

Norm - W7CK

I've been using RCForb.   You can find it at remotehams dot com.   The MS Windows based Server and Client programs are both free.  There is also an Android app that works very well and the cost is quite minimal.

The application lets you control several different radio brands and models - Flex models included.  I like using it especially with my IC-7100 as it gives me full control of the rig 160m through 70cm.  It will even let me turn the rig on and off.  I happen to also have an Elecraft KPA amp and KAT tuner that the application also gives me full control over.   This is the best remote control software I have come across and I highly recommend it.

The security is also pretty good.  You can selectively give others access privileges to selected portions or functions of your station.  Pretty cool.....   Works well with the Flex.  Doesn't require much bandwidth.  I've used it from all over.  From Israel, Hawaii, Alaska and other places.  Never a hickup or any issues whats so ever......

I have an IC-7100 up most of the time for VHF/UHF access.  If you are interested in testing it, install the client on a laptop, configure your mic and speakers (I like wireless bluetooth headsets).   Once you have the Client up and running, configure your login (your call sign) and a password.  Next go in and upload a copy of your license (used to verify that you are actually licensed).  Next look for W7CK (me).  Go ahead and try to connect but make sure you read the first screen you get. It will give you the opportunity to "join the club"?   If you press the button, I will get a notice from you.  I'll look to see if you uploaded a copy of your license.  If you have, I will then give you privileges to use the rig on VHF and UHF.  I live just on the outskirts of Phoenix and there are a lot of folks that hang out on the local repeaters but also a bunch on 146.52 simples.  Get on and play with it and see how it does from your rural location.

Norm - W7CK

Ria

ORB is a good one. A friend with his K3S uses it although he gets frustrated as it is not seamless. But it works most of the time. 

As far as paid solutions go, I believe CommCat is another although I've never personally used it. 

Norm - W7CK

Oh, I forgot to mention.  RCForb also does HRD emulation.  I can use PSK-31 or any other digital mode available through DM780 from my laptop while traveling.  I also use the HRD Logbook while remote. All without having to be running HRD on my laptop because RCForb does the emulation for you.  Works flawlessly - tracking the frequency and mode of the rig as well.   I've even attached my laptop through my cellphone (tethered) and have used this app without any issues.  It also lets you control several different rotors for beam antennas.  I don't have one of those, but the software is there.   There is also a nice forum where you can get just about any question you have answered.

Let me know if you decide to give it a try.

Norm - W7CK

Ria

I think that is fairy typical of low bandwidth rural DSL in the states these days. A lot of the telcos are letting them rot. In my area we can only get a max of 5MBps and it degrades with distance. Copper lines are no longer well-maintained. 

HCampbell WB4IVF

You can count me among the geographically challenged.  Mike’s stats are actually better what I had with my Verizon mobile broadband connectivity, until I put up an outside antenna.  With the antenna I get 4 - 5 Mbps on the average, much better but still vastly slower than my daughter and son-in-law’s FIOS.   Not to mention that my connectivity is “metered” ($ for overages), which adds injury to insult (I now take our Win 10 laptops along when we visit them after update Tuesday to lessen the pain……..).    

Howard

LarryF

Hi all,

I must tell you that some of us have only hot spot to work with.  I am in a no Zone for internet, No cable or dsl.  If i did have dsl it would be a waist because of the land lines in the woods here are useless.  I get internet with hot spot and can only at best in the winter get G2 and some times G3.  I have never checked my speed so can't give you data on that.  I would like to remote but think it would be very difficult or very expensive.  There is just nothing out here but cell tower and that is tough to work with.  On top of that they limit me to my data for the month which I pay top dollar for at $50.00 for 5g.  I have tried a few things but summer comes and the leaves fill in and than i'm luck to get g2.  Would be nice to work remote on low data.

Larry ke2yc

HCampbell WB4IVF

Larry –

I use a hotspot too (a Verizon MIFI 6620L).   While my area is supposed to be have Verizon Wireless 4G coverage, until I got an outside antenna I was limited to 3G, and poor 3G at that.  After connecting an outside antenna I now get reliable 4G.  Maybe that’s an option for you?

I have a 5 gig data plan too, so I feel your pain!

Howard

Kevin

I use ATT 4G at home for Internet. No cable here. I have satellite but it is terrible (high latency, unreliable service, inconsistent bit rate). It will go away someday soon.

The problem with 4G is the cost. I'm floored by my bill every month and, even when I try to cut back a bit to save money I often go over my plan. My current plan is for 40 GB (just upgraded from 25 because I reached my limit with 11 days to go) and the cost approaches $200/month with an 18% discount for being a HOG member.

This is the one and only real gripe I have about living in the hinterlands. It is what it is.

Kev K4VD

LarryF

Hi Kevin,

I agree with you and i would most likely upgrade if i could get better signal but cant see spending all that on only a 2g sig.  Thanks for the comment.

Larry ke2yc