TX delay missing on 1.9.13

Simon Lewis

There seems to be a problem with TX Delay settings on 1.9.13 (and not sure how far back) perhaps this is by design or....

Nick GM4OGI blew up a 10 GHz transverter yesterday despite setting TX Delay up and I started to investigate what he had done.

Setting a TX delay of 1000ms on the TX tab on radio settings works fine in SSB - 1 sec after hitting the PTT the TX light arms and radio goes into releasing RF

in CW the radio ignores the TX delay setting and heads direct to RF instantly

What happened was he was in SSB in JT65 and all worked fine

Switched to CW and his radio beat the transverter switch and hit the IF chain with RF before it was ready

Now ... how is this supposed to work

The manual does not (As far as I could read) say this is mode specific?

Should TX Delay work in CW as well as SSB (in my mind yes)

Problem or by design??

Jd Dupuy

Thanks for the heads up. Pulling my Flex off Moon Bounce and SSB/CW on all transverter bands until I can verify your findings.

Steve G1XOW

Simon,

Whether by design or accident, if it is blowing up expensive transverters then it is surely a big problem than needs an urgent fix. I would assume the same error may apply to amp key switching too.

Simon Lewis

Hi JD - spent lots time looking at yr vids on youtube

yes - its def an issue as I can see  - theres no TX delay on CW present

On SSB the delay is easy visible with RF delayed by TX delay time

On CW it ignores it and hits the RF immediate

Nick GM4OGI now has an annoying repair on his 3cms gear due to it

I tested this on the bench and I found the issue in just a few mins

as soon as he switched from SSB to CW and CWX he was in for trouble

Simon Lewis

if your setting the TX delay for the amp on that - then yes

Simon Lewis

can someone else test this - just set RF to zero - set 1000ms as TX delay and see in SSB how long the TX light on SSDR lights on - then do the same but simply switch to CW

Mine shows in SSB the delay - in CW its ignored

Steve G1XOW

Simon,

4.30am here so not a good time for playing with the scope, but I just did a quick comparison.

With 1000ms set, in SSB mode you can clearly see a difference on the front red TX light: it goes dim-red first, then bright red after the 1000ms, in CW mode there is no change in the LED state at all.

Simon Lewis

Hi Steve - yes that's showing same as me .. ie no delay in CW regardless of TX Delay timing set - thanks for confirming

Geir/LA5ZO

How will TX delay and high speed QSK interact? (CW remember....)

Simon Lewis

you would not set a TX delay if you were using that function else it would mess up QSK

Jd Dupuy

Thanks for watching Simon and thanks for the quick report on the delay issue. Have not had time to update due to work schedule. Hopefully there will be an answer and solution to this critical issue. Cheers!

Ned K1NJ

   You will still need a TX delay, however brief, to ensure that your amp is keyed
first.  I'm still using 1.9.9 and the delays are "normal".  However, although I only
use TX1, TX1 will use the delay set in TX2 or TX3, if that delay is longer,  e.g.
500ms., even if TX2 and TX3 are set disabled.  So, there may be loose ends
floating around in that area.  Use caution.

Ned,  K1NJ

Simon Lewis

I tested this in 1.9.9 - the delays are as per timings in SSB but absent in CW

proceed with caution using the TX delay settings in CW

Ross - K9COX

I believe it is by design. When in CW the delay setting in the CW panel controls the transition time.

Delay Slider: Moving Delay slider control the slider control to the right increases the time delay in milliseconds (ms) between the end of a keying element and when the radio transitions from transmit to receive. This effectively controls the QSK characteristics of the radio, where a value of 0ms is full break. Increasing this value will allow different degrees of QSK (semi break), such as listening between letters or words while sending.

Simon Lewis

yes but we are talking TX delay on the radio settings

the TX delay its says works ...."The “Timings” section has adjustments for RCA TX1, TX2 and TX3 (Only TX1 on FLEX-6300) as well as the Accessory TX, TX Delay and TX Timeout. Each of these controls is measured in Milliseconds (MS). Each of the TX1, 2, 3 timings are independent and start from depressing the microphone PTT, keying of a CW paddle, etc. RF is transmitted as soon as the largest of TX1, 2, 3, ACC_TX delays have elapsed if TX Delay is set to zero. Otherwise TX Delay value is added to the maximum of TX1, 2, 3, ACC_TX"

Ross - K9COX

I am just quoting from the manual and relating what i have experienced...try it.

Simon Lewis

its not the time to RX thats the prob .. its the lack of delay on TX

EA4GLI

There is an odd behavior.
This is what I found on my 6700.

If I set the delay to a large amount to make it more perceptible, lets say 2000ms (2 seconds) and I send my call with CWX it the radio will take the TX Delay of 2000ms into acount but it will add those 2000ms in between each letter regardless of the CW Delay setting and Breakin enabled or disabled.

EA4GLI

And QSK is not working!
I have tried every single combination but QSK does not work.
I reset the radio a few days ago when I was getting odd behavior out of CWU CWL switching, so that is not the solution.

EA4GLI

Actually Ross, you try it please. That it is not working as you mentioned or extracted from the manual.
There is no QSK going on now and the TX Delay is somehow tie to the CW delay between letters.

Ross - K9COX

I see what you mean, my QSK used to work until the latest update. It was fine a week ago.

Ned K1NJ

   Hmmm....  Perhaps I should have mentioned-  I am using an *external* keyer.
This may make a difference.  Test and verify your settings to avoid disaster.

Ned,  K1NJ

W7NGA

Just an oblique observation from an engineer ... you really can't blame the system until you understand the system. Clearly, someone didn't understand the system to the degree required by the application. Assumptions made ... smoke entailed.

mikeatthebeach .

Well, I wonder if FRS has a quality Control Checklist to ring out software bugs
before releases. 
Maybe the software Engineers are not real Hams - Just maybe just VHF HT operators at FRS
Seem surprising, features work then stop working in newer software releases 
Elecraft & Icom seem better at QA 

Bob K8RC

First off there is never any delays associated with "QSK" It implies instantaneous t/r switching, period. Key down = transmit. Key up = receive. QSK enables the receiver in between dots and dashes. External devices need PIN diode or similar switching to keep up. Anything less including receive between letters is just really quick semi-breakin where delays happen. To get this right for CW with external amps, preamps, etc., you actually need two separate delays: From receive mode, the first key down starts a settable "attack" delay that allows preamps to switch out and power amps to switch in before RF is generated. While transmitting, a "hang" delay sets the time interval between the last key up edge and the switch to receive. Any subsequent key down during the hang delay is sent immediately without first adding the attack delay and the trailing key up edge starts a new hang delay interval. Once the hang delay expires, the system switches to receive. The next key down will have the attack delay added before RF output.

Jd Dupuy

I wonder how many of their Beta Testers run Transverters, sequencers etc? Had they smoked their own expensive equipment they might of caught the issue.

Simon Lewis

Still waiting on further info - seems to be reproducible!

EA4GLI

Yeah dito, this is kind of an important one. 

K5CG

Is there a support ticket for this?  I haven't seen responses from FRS anywhere in this topic.

mikeatthebeach .

Maybe FRS can learn from this
https://static.dxengineering.com/global/images/instructions/dxe-tvsu-1b.pdf

Eric-KE5DTO

Thanks for bringing this issue to our attention.  I have run a few tests on my desk and here is what I've found:

The TX Delay is accounted for and thus the RF is delayed when sending CW via paddles or CWX.  Note that the LED switches immediately, which is different than SSB, but this is not a good representation of when RF actually comes out.  Using Full Duplex is a good way to see the sent RF signal on the Panadapter.

HOWEVER, when testing the TUNE button functionality, this does appear to skip the TX Delay when in CW mode.  This is written up in our system as Issue #4140.  Please do use caution with the TUNE functionality in CW mode until this issue has been addressed.  Again, this issue doesn't appear to affect other modes (SSB, FM, RTTY, etc).