6500 power

G8ZPX

Gerald, agreed, and I wouldn't want to see the product technically compromised, or the Flex brand tarnished by shoddy output. This issue really is not so much of technical performance, but more about the commercial and contractual claims versus deliverable performance I feel.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with lower output as long as the customer is a) informed upfront [pre-purchase], b) told why, and/or c) given a choice on the matter post-purchase.

Some people claiming that the lower output would not be detectable at the RX end, whilst technically true (even 50W down would be hard to spot), this is an unhelpful smokescreen that seeks to side-step the underlying commercial necessities.

73, have a good weekend and don't stress over it too much. As long as the customer knows you are doing things for the right reason they will accept it.

G8ZPX

Measured observations:

Voltage drop across internal fuse 0.2V, voltage drop across factory supplied cable 0.82V. For someone with the most common form of fixed 13.8V PSU that will be just 12.7V at the PA board.

So, another idea: upgrade the cable loom for those customers affected and/or specify that only a variable PSU capable of at least 14.82V is essential to achieve full output on the f6k. Hopefully that would be the end of it.

cheers,

W9OY

G1XOW

Seems to me Gerald addressed your concerns.  He told you precisely how the radio was calibrated and I'm sure your radio met its specification upon final inspection.  This fulfills his so called "contract".  He did not contract with you for a radio that delivers anything specific using your cables, your connectors, your coax, your unknown brand power supply, your unknown power meter, your unknown dummy load, your unknown SWR etc.  

If you have a concern about your specific radio, contact Flex and get a RMA to have your radio re-certified or repaired as needed.  If you ask it is likely they will provide you with some specific data on precisely how your radio behaves and how it was calibrated.  Hopefully that will be the end of it.  

Power correctly measured and understood from an engineering perspective is a relative logarithmic measurement and not just an absolute linear measurement.   It is not a smoke screen to use standard engineering concepts to discuss the behavior of a system.  If you demand a certain absolute power, then simply crank up or down the voltage or get thicker and shorter wires to achieve your goal.  You claim to be a ham, and therefore to have some technical expertise so use that expertise to achieve your perceived need.

73  W9OY

safetyproumb

Leave as is.
Jim
N3JWE

G8ZPX

Lee,

If you had cared the read the entire thread you would have noted that I have no personal issue with this topic, and it does *not* affect me. I was giving Gerald feedback and help with his dilemma. You however do get the award for stating the blatantly obvious.

I will just conclude my input to this topic by saying the assumption of technical skill by any consumer (of any product) in mitigation of a potential design shortfall is a legal battle you'd always lose.   That position is like a car manufacture trying to state "yes the air-bags should have saved his life - but he was an engineer so he knew they didn't work right". Sometimes we blind ourselves with the technical detail and fail to see the wood for the trees standing in the way.

I have the confidence that Gerald and FRS will do the right thing to protect their interests, and in doing so ours too.

Gerald-K5SDR

I think the only option I see is to do what the Japanese manufacturers do and allow the power knob to go to "11."  It is not what is best for QRM but it will stop the complaining about the watt meter readings.  It's just a software gain control.  You will still want to meet the minimum specification of 13.8V at the input terminals under load.  

I don't think any of the 13.8 VDC radios on the market will give 100W on all bands at 12.5 V.  It's Ohm's Law.  

Stefano - W2WTZ

Me too, while reading Gerald's concusions it seems that FT-1000 markV or newer Yaesu 5000 with 200W are splattering radios. In other words it's not possible for Flex to provide a tranceiver with more than 85W on 40m without splattering or rigging the datas as Gerald says Icom does. I akwnoledge Gerald's words but I don't agree.
Nice example of clutch at straws.

G8ZPX

Gerald, very minor point buy please note the power sliders actually only cover 0 to 99. (zero being off) you cannot actual set it to 100 as it stands.

cheers,

Gerald-K5SDR

Stefano,

You you are incorrect.  Those 200W radios use an internal AC to DC supply with a PA voltage of 50V.  Totally different design from 13.8V PAs.  It is much easier to do those power levels at 50V because they can use a higher drain impedance.  They also don't have the variable of an external power supply, cables, or connectors as you do on the 13.8V system.  They cost more to build too.

I am just giving you the facts of any 13.8V radio no matter the supplier.  Distortion by definition increases the harder you drive the amplifier.  This is true on the 200W amps as well as they approach drain saturation.  This is physics not marketing.  I can't change Ohm's law.  

Stefano, if you would like for me personally to look at and calibrate your radio, enter a help desk ticket and send it in.  You might actually have a problem.  I just don't know without seeing it.

I am going to discuss with the team whether to let the knob go to 11 like everyone else does.  

I need to have a little bit of a weekend so I am going QRT.  

73,
Gerald

k3Tim

Power sliders here go to 100, Tune and RF - power.

At this station, I want the cleanest signal possible and energy efficient. Keeping IMD down requires a stiff supply (among other things). I left the supplied power cable in the box and located the radio so it would be as close as possible to the power supply.  A short pigtail forms the DC interconnect. Drop at full load is 0.20 V at the fuse according the flexmeter APP. 

KC2QMA_John

I’m just grateful to get a clear concise official FRS response to this question. And as for me I would gladly trade a few watts to have the cleanest signal possible.

 Thank you Gerald.
Go have a great weekend!

Gerald-K5SDR

Tim, back for a moment.  You are absolutely correct about low IMD requiring a stiff power supply.  Any IR drop under modulation will by definition increase IMD.  My DC supply cable is only 6 inches long.  

My power slider goes to 100 too.

KY6LA_Howard

@Gerald Your dilemma is that you are trying to produce a precision instrument for a market that has been conditioned by the competition to buy specifications without any real understanding of what those numbers actually mean. Many of your customers are not particularly technically sophisticated albeit some at least have a rudimentary knowledge of Ohms law without any understanding of how it applies in the real world. So you get complaints like my 13.8V supply does not produce 100W on all bands which of course to an engineer is a totally meaningless statement without a detailed analysis of the voltage drops along the way to the input at the radio,, a detailed analyst of the loads on the antenna side. And a detailed analysis of the distortion products. Your competition avoids these complaints by ignoring the distortion products and allowing the gain on the PA to be increased to the point where the radio will always produce 100W+ output on all bands at all times from a nominal 13.8V supply dropping to a real world 11.8V at the radio. Of course, running those radios under those conditions produces all sorts of distortion but to the unsophisticated user his meter shows more than 100W. I do not have enough experience with Adaptive Pre-Distortion to be able to comment intelligently but I suspect that even the most sophisticated systems would have issues compensating for the distortion inherent at higher gain levels. I am EE so I purchased a precision instrument not a consumer grade device. I want my radio receiver to read out receive signals in accurate dBm not some mythical S-Meter reading I want my transmitter to produce 100W under perfect lab conditions when the slider is 100. If my transmitter System measures less than 100W, by using my precision radio as a standard to determine where my power supply input or antenna system is deficient If I did not understand specifications and I had wanted to buy a consumer grade toy, I would have bought one of your competitors radios So your real dilemma is how to educate the unsophisticated user as to what real radio specifications really mean and not to lower your product quality to the consumer grade devices of your competition. BTW. I have some familiarity with EU product standards and advertising rules. If anything your competition is bending the rules like VW did to pretend to meet their advertised numbers.

Stefano - W2WTZ

Have a nice weekend Gerald and thank you for your point of view.

Bill -VA3WTB

Hi Howard. It is interesting the use of the word unsophisticated. I know there are some very educated people here that do not have a great understanding about this stuff.

Stefano likely did not know the large differences between the design of the radios he named and the Flex, that explains it all clearly.

I think it is important for people to remember that all the specs and performance issues have been discussed at great length at Flex. As Gerald said, we are governed by laws as to how a device will perform under certain conditions. The idea that the radio will not do a 100W on all bands is not a mistake or something overlooked, it is planned.

Flex has radios working in the real world at the office and not on a test bench I'm sure. And most will have one at home set up just as we all do and they all see the same things as we do. The way these radios are calebrated to work is carefully planned in order to make them as clean as possible while performing at a high level. To take Flex to task over a few watts + - is silly. I still can't believe Gerald spent so much time today explaining this stuff, but holding true to his way of doing things he did. Nice touch.

EA4GLI

Why do the same radios with the same PSU/cable change in power out with different software revisions? 

Walt - KZ1F

That's, kind of, in his job description Bill. So, effectively, you just said, "I can't believe Gerald is doing his job". I am certain I am speaking for others as well when I say, While I am not surprised Gerald is doing his job, as a customer, I am pleased that he is doing his job.

Peter K1PGV

I see a bit of a different issue here. For the record, I personally don't care if the output power of my Flex is 85w or 105w. No matter what it is, I personally want the nicest possible signal. I suspect everyone really appreciates and admires the care Flex takes in the calibration/tuning of the PA. This is the kind of detail and precision we expect from Flex. And for Gerald to take the time to explain it to us? Very cool. Having said that, I think the trade-off between 85w with low distortion and 100w with higher distortion isn't the choice the posters here want. I don't think any thoughtful amateur wants more distortion in their station's signal. Well, I hope not anyway. Rather, I think the comments here reflect the fact that some folks expect a solid 100w power out with the SAME low distortion they currently get with 85w (or, whatever it is). The distortion measurements are part of evaluating a radio's performance... Which for Flex is excellent, and notably better than other vendors. So is the output power part of that evaluation... even if that's down to less than 1db differences. Now, I expect Gerald will reply "You can't get something for nothing"... the MOSFETs can't be driven harder without more distortion. Undoubtedly true. But I don't think the folks posting here really care which devices are used in the PA or what other vendors do. They just want their low-distortion AND they want 100w out. Maybe that requires a different PA design. OK! You see... With Flex, we've all been accustomed to expect "the best" -- Seriously. Flex does leading edge design. Flex doesn't follow the pack. Flex blazes its own trail. Oh, people her **** and moan... But I think this really is the company's image and what many expect. So, I think THAT's where these requests come from. I see the argument... Though, as I said, I don't really care personally. Personally, I'm either in a digital mode with 50w or less out, or I'm driving my (new to me) SPE-1K with 20w or less to the amp. If I was Flex, I'd change the spec to be clear on output power. I'd say "100w class" or "100w +/- 15%" or "approx 100w, each radio individually tuned for lowest distortion" ( I like the last one... Might as well brag about the process). Peter K1PGV

Walt - KZ1F

Fair appraisal of the situation Peter, good job!

W7NGA

It's called a specification. Specify the output power and specify the distortion products .. fully qualified. The radio either meets spec or it does not. 

W7NGA  dan
Madrid, Spain

Walt - KZ1F

Dan, are you full time in Madrid or just there on holiday, like Howard and Paris? I just recently noticed the location on your signature.

EA4GLI

Palencia the other day, Madrid today.... are you having fun in my home country?

W7NGA

We spend our summers in Europe or Asia. Started in Amsterdam, to Paris, drove thru Normandie and Brittany to Bordeaux. Now in Spain and having a wonderful time. Just got back from the Prado .. and the weather is breezy and in the 80's. Seville tomorrow where it is heating up. Then Portugual for ten days before returning home. Haven't seen a ham radio antenna yet ...

EA4GLI

There are some (antennas)!!
Check out Paradores and Pousadas (in Portugal) to spend a night or two www.paradores.es Have fun!

W7NGA

Salvador ... thank you for the recommendations! 
I've played guitar for decades and have been wanting to learn Flamenco. Went to Cafe Berlin here in Madrid last night and watched Jeronimo and Felipe Maya and friends play, and am really excited to start learning Flamenco. You think your Flex is expensive .. start pricing Flamenco guitars!

EA4GLI

There are some internationally unknown luthieres that can build a guitar to your specs for a fraction of an Alhambra. Some links http://www.tomasleal.com/  and http://vicentecarrillo.com/es/guitarras_flamencas.php?m2=2

Both of these are in Casasimarro, Cuenca. (2hrs from Madrid) That will take you off the beaten path, Cuenca is a beautiful town to visit, with an outstanding modern art museum and their famous "Ciudad Encantada" (Enchanted City). 

Having the chance to visit these artisans at the workplaces is a unique opportunity.

The A3 highway, which will take you there could be a nightmare on the weekend due to a ton of traffic from the mediterranean shore beach towns... if you can go on a weekday.

This is a picture of the Parador of Cuenca.



http://www.paradores.es/en/paradores/parador-de-cuenca

Paradores are old Castles, Monasteries, etc... transformed into 4 to 5 star hotels. The prices per night are kept relatively low. A Parador always has a high quality restaurant with fantastic local dishes.

Some of the rooms are like spending the night in a medieval place but with all the 20th century amenities (AC, wonderful showers, high thread count linings.... etc).

Check out one of the rooms....



This parador in particular is a 1523 Monastery.

Many people do not know about these Paradores (and Pousadas in Portugal) and they are some of the most wonderful experiences in the Iberian peninsula. You can even get several day passes and spend the night in a different one each day. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DznRYvFBijE

G8ZPX

All of the big radio manufacturers easily meet both the CE and FCC regs in every technical respect.  And, in fact the diesel car producers did so with their specs too.

They opted to be "economical with the truth" knowing that in practical terms the spec and test criteria was ****, and they got exposed and humiliated for it in a very expensive public way.

Almost all the car brands (including VW) met or exceeded the spec in controlled lab tests, but 95% of those cars went on to fail the same tests in real-life scenarios. Some then claimed environmental factors beyond their control. A German judge replied "sir, if you cannot control the environmental factors, then you also cannot claim a specification that suggests you can".

In most modern countries, the specification sheet is the first document forming "the contract" within the sale of goods act. The spec has to be honest, and achievable by the end-user without mitigation or distillation in any material way. The spec sheet isn't just a disposable sales and marketing platitude.

Personally, I have no problem with a radio capable of even +/- 15% TX output tolerance if done for a good reason; or even the mandatory need for a PSU with 14.5V output, but it must say so on the can (spec)!

Michael Coslo

If I may interject - 100 watts on what? On the surface that might seem a little off the cuff, but it speaks to the equipment used to measure the power. 

I have an autotuner that tells me that my flex is running around 109 Watts out. The Flexmeter tells me it is around 90. 20 watts might seem like a huge difference, but such swings are not in the least unusual in a non laboratory environment. 

I also see differences in SWR between Tuner and Dummy load, a 50 Ohm dummy load I have reads between 1.09 and 1.12 dependind on teh band, and my autotuner reads 1.2 on all bands.  which I will check into, but probably is where the tuner stops seeking. Regardless, the power doesn't change.

So unless I'm using a freshly calibrated load and power meter , I take -  especially -  power measurements with a very large grain of salt. 

K4MT

Friend just brought has LP-100A over and his K3 radio and a lab quality dummy load.  
Flex 86 watts with power supply set at 13.8 with 6 foot power cable

K3 103 watts with same length and ga power cable and 13.8 VDC at power supply.

Its not a function of test setup its a radio that does not meet advertised power and from what I read mine is not the only one.

Bill -VA3WTB

Mine does a 100W