SmartSDR Mouse Wheel Tuning

W9OY

You want an apology you got it.  I am very proud, and impressed with the work that has been done on this product and the small part I have played.  I have zero interest in your judgement.  

You notice I used the word innuendo.  So while you may not be guilty of direct accusation, you are guilty engaging in FUD Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.  FUD is a technique developed by IBM to instill doubt in the products of their competitors.  It is innuendo.  Because the GUI does not possess your particular desired feature set does not mean Flex is at fault.  So why do I have to put up with your innuendo?  Am I owed an apology?  Take a chill pill?

73  W9OY

KY6LA_Howard

This thread is really tiring...

Like Lee I spend hours of unpaid time alpha testing products to make sure you get the best possible worry free products.

Unlike most of you, I have run companies that delivered hardware and software so I know how much it costs to develop bug free software that actually works as the customers expect.

Yes.... the recurring revenue model is the holy grail of Hardware/Software businesses... NOT because it gives us a higher valuation albeit it does, Not because of some secret cabal to increase profits ,,, But rather because we needed the cash flow to pay salaries and overheads of expensive programmers to deliver those allegedly simple fixes that you seem to demand....last time I looked, programmers needed food to eat.. and food is not free unless you are on the dole...   I do not believe that all you programmers who have responded to this thread would show up to work if you were not paid for your time and effort...

Having paid for the costs of developing those little eye candy niceties in my products similar to a Mouse Wheel to change a single digit on a VFO or move a slider.. BTW.. the MOUSE WHEEL TUNING WORKS FINE...

even tiny changes to a GUI can break major things... so they have to be tested...

Just ask any Alpha testers how many versions of things we have to try when the tiniest of changes happen...Flex is fortunate to have a lot of volunteer alpha testers as the cost of 50+ people testing something like Maestro Software @ a minimum of ($100,000 salary $50,000 overhead = $150,000 per year would add at least $7.5MM to $10MM to the cost of Maestro Development. 

People who are whining about having to pay $200 for improvements have no real idea how much it costs to do even the smallest things...

Heck.. I was the first one to wish for Spots on the Display, better color palettes for visually challenged users, Digital Numbers rather than Analog bars for SWR and Power.

BUT none of these are Deal Killers as some of you allege.. and MORE IMPORTANT the presence or absence of these "Eye Candy" will have little impact on revenue needed to pay the cost of developing them.

If you have read the recently released Maestro Manual.. many of the Eye Candy GUI Feature Requests are being handled in a much more user friendly manner by Maestro....  At some point assuming there is a revenue stream to pay for them, some may migrate back into SSDR.

BTW.. almost 10 years of development went into PowerSDR before a lot of eye candy such as Skins stated to appear...

Bottom Line;  No one is going to sell their Flex for lack of Eye Candy and few if any will make a decision not to buy a Flex because it lacks minor eye candy found in PowerSDR. 

So please stop with this very tiresome whining...

KY6LA_Howard

@Guy...

No you would not be happy with the 5000.. it is totally outperformed by the 6000

So much so that the missing eye candy would not be an issue

Brian - K6BPM

From a programmer's perspective I can see how some of the missing goodies can be explained. The programmers at Flex are not using straight ot of the box Windows controls (buttons, sliders, checkboxes etc). They have created nicer looking custom controls that better suit the design scheme they are are using. When you create a custom control (or class) you "derive" that from a standard control. When you do that you can inherit specific capabilities of the original control or override them and make them operate or look differently. In this case, my guess might be that they are not done with their custom control class library. They have not defined the methods for "hover" or "wheel" as well as they could have or maybe not at all.

So, for example, take a slider control. If they are not handling the "hover" + "wheel" events that fire when the mouse is hovering over the control and the mouse wheel is spun, all they need to do write a "method" for the slider event handling code and it will allow ALL slider controls to be responsive.

I DO understand how this could happen this way. Their custom classes may still be under development. But that would be nice to know if they are, or if we're stuck with what we've got.

There is a LOT of work involved in the UI that we can see now. That is not trivial stuff. All that pretty UI stuff is custom work. But I would have thought they would be addressing that much more quickly. Typically, you would try to get your custom library UI related stuff off the table sooner rather than later.

KY6LA_Howard

@Brian

I think you are correct in that they likely have not developed the custom class library yet.  Due to the custom programming requirements of the FPGA, there also may not yet be code written inside the FPGA to accept the custom class calls issued by the GUI.

Lee Maisel

OK.. I don't know where the whole idiotic "eye-candy" thing came up.  People just want some basic functionality that is missing.   I'm sure it will go into the next major release, and I'm sure nobody minds paying for a major upgrade if it addresses the missing functions.
Sheesh.

Jon_KF2E

Bottom Line;  No one is going to sell their Flex for lack of Eye Candy and few if any will make a decision not to buy a Flex because it lacks minor eye candy found in PowerSDR. 

Howard,

I would have agreed with this six months ago. When you are the pioneer of a technology, people flock to you and are eager to overlook any minor issues. Make no mistake, most of these things being discussed are minor issues. Unfortunately, like a burr under a saddle with time it starts to irritate. But, if you are the best game in town it still probably doesn't matter. The change comes when you start to have competition. That still hasn't happened to Flex but it likely won't stay that way.

Icom's first entry into the SDR market, the IC-7300 seems to be a worthy little radio. It's not in the performance league of Flex but it is almost half the price of a 6300 with tuner. Look on Eham at the reviews. After just one month it has 66 reviews and a rating of 4.9. The only Flex radio to accumulate that many reviews is the 5000 which has 102 reviews and an admirable rating of 4.8 in nine years. Oh, about eye candy, if you take the time to read some of the reviews of the 7300 you will see that most users are raving about is it's ease of use and ergonomics.

My point is, your assumption that not having eye candy won't effect sales is wrong. It is exactly what will be used by a regular hams who don't have a clue what 2db of phase noise means. 

Maybe Flex is happy being a niche provider of high end radios. If so they can continue on their course. If they want to provide mainstream ham radios, they need to address the items that are important to most hams.

Jon...kf2e

[Deleted User]

Any official response from Flex on this thread ? ? ?

James Whiteway

What may be eye candy to some, is a useful feature to others. My definition of "eye candy" is some thing that looks neat, but serves no useful purpose. I can see where mousewheel tuning of the freq directly (which can be quite fast) would be useful. I liked it in PSDR. And, it works in my home made app. James WDTGWY

VK7WH Winston

I think we could give Flex a leave pass if they have yet to comment. They are probably pretty busy endeavouring to get the Maestros, or should I say Maestri, out the door and preparing for Dayton

Brian - K6BPM

I just discovered this thread when I checked in tonight. Very disappointing response from K5SDR. It sounds like we're not very valuable as customers unless we're buying a Maestro. 

https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/powersdr-2-7-2-ke9ns-revision-t4

We may be waiting for awhile for our software requests to be considered. I am not encouraged by this at all. I was thinking about taking advantage of Flex's upgrade offer and also getting a Maestro. I think I'll wait now and see what shakes out. 

Lee Maisel

G8ZPX

Howard,

Whilst your heart may be in the right place, you won't get far by treating the user base with such contempt and trying to suppress their freedom of expression.

Many people who buy Flex are themselves exceedingly skilled hardware/software developers. Some have delivered multi-£m projects to NATO and global FMCG businesses, so actually they do know what it's like to get high-end system right first-time to discerning user-base.

Some of the stuff missing is certainly not eye candy, but important features that have been missed / postponed without a timeline. These things lead to irritation and frustration which will get vocalized, on here and on the bands. A disgruntled user-base is not a good place for such a small firm as FRS. They must listen to their customers more, as our loyalty is not endless nor blind to other market developments.

Actually, I think people will happily pay for V2 provided that it isn't just another staging post along the way to a still unfinished product. We need to get a comprehensive feature list out in the open so that we can all see what V2 will actually deliver on. Only then can we gauge its worth (time and money) in real terms versus our assumed loyalty.

BTW: PSDR was developed by a small team of part-time developers over many years. If as you say, FRS now has the benefit of millions of dollars worth of dedicated developers and testers on SSDR then why is it taking so long to add the polish?  Yet at the same time Darrin KE9NS makes massive leaps on PSDR all by himself.

km9r.mike

It appears to be a logical business move by Flex. Since the inception of the 5k , I have heard the pining of those stuck in the past with knob obsession (more of a psychological conundrum imho than a true need ) to have Flex bend to their desires. While the ic7300 is at a cheaper price, the biggest fascination is sdr with knobs for those who appear have a fear of PCs. Regardless, the lesser performing ic7300 has sold well proving that there is a big market for sdr w/ knobs sans PC. 

From what I have heard, the maestro was initially developed for the lucrative contest market but it can quite possibly have a huge appeal to those that fear the PC. Either way it should be a big revenue generater for FRS. Either business grow or they die. 

I suspect, when the ic7300 wears thin the new sdr users will be left looking for more and FRS will be in a prime position to do that. A growing lucrative FRS means a greater potential to provide future advancements to existing systems.

I have never run a business but the above make sense to me. It would also seem that KE9NS would be a good addition to the SSDR development team. He seems to be a very talented lad.

Paul Bradbeer

Mike, I don't think that someone's personal preference for knobs is necessarily a 'fear of PCs'.  I've been using my 6500 with a mouse (and a Flex Controller) but I am really looking forward to my Maestro arriving.  Why?  Because I'm a top Contester?...errr no, chance would be a fine thing!  It's because some frequent operations are just easier with a knob...change the AGCT or filter Hi cut and Lo cut?...far easier and quicker with a knob.  In my view, SDR is defined by the architecture, functionality and flexibility...whether it has knobs is a personal choice based on ergonomics.  I don't fear my PC...but thinking about it, it has been giving me some really odd looks recently ;-)...

km9r.mike

Paul that was mainly in jest, but for some it does appear to be a major issue while at the same time they are fine with 3rd party software CAT i.e. HRD. It baffles my mind. I see what you are saying though, however, anymore those controls are only found on higher end rigs and the less expensive rigs resort to menu driven controls and then a uniknob to change the value in that sub menu. While , I got used to my ft857d multiple sub menus, I found that I preferred point and click on SSDR.

[Deleted User]

I think . . . Flex needs to hire Darrin

[Deleted User]

I believe Gerald referred to it as "eye candy" in another thread

DrTeeth

Howard, the only way to stop this whining is to try explain why Flex did not get it better the first time around whilst making frankly **** choices. Were the alpha testers tasked with giving GUI feedback too? Flex has boxed themselves into a corner as (apparently) fixing a GUI is more difficult than getting it right the first time.

Now for some examples. Let's take our favourite of the power/SWR meters first. Somebody must have sat down and thought, unbelievably, that the current colour scheme was a good idea and that the red fade at the lower levels was also desirable. To make the situation even more surreal, somebody more senior must have signed off on it. That is very worrying is that is the standard of GUI design we have got to look forward to from Flex.

Then, somebody much have made a conscious decision a) not to program some of the PSDR GUI features into SSDR and b) decided to depart from standard windows convention regarding the mouseover/wheel interaction.

It does not help when Flex just calls these silly choices 'eye candy' and says that they are not a priority. That is most certainly NOT the way to stop the whining.

@ Steven. Actually, unbelievably, Flex is actually helping Darrin a lot...whilst insulting us for wanting the same.

DrTeeth

It was.

DrTeeth

@ Brian, re: K5SDR's comment in the thread that you referenced floored me, TBH.  Not the way a CEO should talk to some of his customer base.

Steve K9ZW

Gents FRS has said over and over that PowerSDR is yesterday.  The hardware has support limitations and the software model was economically flawed, as well as the software/hardware design (thick-pipe model) simply not where FRS said they are going.

While it is legitimate to point to features from PowerSDR, as well as from any other software or vision of software, as desirable features to be added to SmartSDR, it is futile to pine for a dead product line to be resurrected.

It is way out of line to prescribe/interpolate/just-make-the-****-up about the background reasoning behind FRS decisions.  Are in all honesty if those decisions don't suit you then it is other options you should be looking at.

To call out the most communicative CEO in our hobby's industry for his honesty that the new product launch is the present and current #1 is out of line.  Way out of line! 

To further moan that you would do something different as if you could shame him into not having your pet peeve as his main focus is asinine beyond belief.

As a customer you have the right to buy, not buy, be somewhere on the product satisfaction scale, provided invited feedback, but other than not buying or selling off your hardware you did buy you have no stake in the business, and your stakeholder's prerogative doesn't include calling the shots.

Some of you run your own businesses, and I would imagine run them very well.  Most likely your success is because you have a vision and carry through with what your business promises. 

Note it what your business itself promises - not what some armchair quarterback kibitzing from the sidelines based on their one-off singular purchase decided your firm should do instead of what the firm promised - that is the goal you meet to gain success.

The hover-over addition was worth advocating. 

That any given individual isn't happy with aspects of the present GUI is worth sharing.

Expecting FRS to pour resources into your pet idea or hire this or that person is not on.

Pretending that you run FRS and even worse play-fitting your pet theories behind their decisions is really abusive bad news. 

If you don't know FOR A FACT the rational behind a decision you shouldn't speculate.

Gerald K5SDR deserves better.   

73

Steve K9ZW

James Whiteway

Some may have been told like I was, before I purchased the 6300, (and later traded up to a 6500, which I greatly enjoy using) that SmartSDR would have all the features that PowerSDR had before I would have to pay for the next full version upgrade(v2.0) . That hasn't happened as of yet. Will it make me sell ou? In a word, no. I like the 6500 too much to do that. And I"m certain I'll like it more when my Maestro arrives. As for the missing features/eye candy, I can roll my own if I want it bad enough.(and have) But, not everyone can do that. So, they are stuck until FRS can find the time and resources to add those missing features they/we would like to have. So, both sides of this argument (which it's turning into) should back off a bit and let FRS do what they need to do to keep their income comming in. FRS is a small company with a lot of vision. It takes time to accomplish what they are doing. I trust them to do the right thing. James WD5GWY

VE6KWA

Good Grief... I applaud people for their  concerns and opinions, but am I the only one that is sick of the griping... innuendos... and what looks and sounds like Troll Bait ? I used to really enjoy this list ! Yes I know I can leave if I don't like it...  I'm very close to doing exactly that... I suspect others are as well. It seems it's the same guys that just can't leave an issue alone, constantly steering any thread they join back to their pet gripe...  Such is life when you choose to consult &  include your customer base as Flex does. You guys at Flex must have thick skins !  (flame suit on)

DrTeeth

If Gerald would have made a completely different post to his frankly insulting 'eye candy' one, he would have got personal kudos, silenced the whiners for good (me included) and would have made a post that would attract customers. He did so much more harm than good.

Nobody is going to leave this forum as it will **** over like everything else.

VK7WH Winston

"FRS is a small company with a lot of vision. It takes time to accomplish what they are doing. I trust them to do the right thing." Pretty well sums it up for me

Rick Hadley - W0FG

Bravo Zulu!  (That's USN vice USA,, for the uninitiated.)

VE6KWA

I like it...  I'm going to make good use of that form !!   B^)

Tim - W4TME

This post is no longer on topic so I am closing it.

Tim - W4TME

Please refer to this post as a follow-up from Gerald 
https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/i-think-you-deserve-an-apology