No direct connect for Amplifiers and other devices

SteveJ

I agree with Dennis I have never liked the fact that a third party program was necessary to control and amplifier.

W9OY

Why do you think this is simple?   Interfacing a dozen different amps running different protocols with variable station requirements, and the associated product support is anything but simple.  You'd have to hire 2 engineers who did nothing all day but troubleshoot amplifier screwups.   Why would Flex possibly want to open that can of worms when DDUTIL does a great job.  Your boundaries of this NEEDING to be in the radio are arbitrary.  That's the answer.

73  W9OY

Walt - KZ1F

Enzo, I think you are technically incorrect. One will need a pc to inall ssdr to the radio as well as install ssdr for Windows to the PC as well as Maestro.

SteveJ

Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu do not seem to have a problem interfacing their radios to the various amplifiers on the market.

W9OY

Actually that is not true, it's the other way around.  The amp manufacturers make interfaces to interface their amps to specific radios

73  W9OY

Simon Lewis

I'd like to see  you tell a kenwood/icom/yaesu or elecraft user he needs to use software to interface amps etc

you would get laughed at out of the park

the lack of hardware for in box CAT is a joke .. plain and simple

my biggest frustration and the largest gap in the 6000 series radios

should have been fixed along time ago .. in fact it should have been a MVP  feature !

W9OY

so exactly where does a ASL-1300 or  Acom 2000 plug into a Yaesu or a icom?

73  W9OY

Simon Lewis

Lee - the ALS does support direct and switching out of the box of which I am quite sure you know that but adding a simple interface does

http://www.ameritron.com/Product.php?productid=ARI-500

and it does supports auto band switching via RS232 or BCD ie icom/kenw/yaes/ele

and the Acom 2000 also supports auto switching same formats

W9OY

Simon

I see you need a $150 extra piece of hardware to make it work.  Both amps require hardware interfaces and both have software built in and are programmable using switching plugs.  I've owned both of these amps and still use the ASL-1300.   How is this topologically different than something like a Raspberry pi 3 connected to the radio via ethernet and provide switching data to the rest of the station?  How is this different than having DDUTIL connect to the radio and USB out to a BCD box?  Radio > interface > Amp  that's the topology.

The ALS-1300 is not reliably remote-able on a WAN.  I can run it remote from my office across the house but the problem is if it faults you have to be present to reset it.  Same with the Acom.   The advantage of something like DDUTIL or a Raspberry pi equivalent  is you can run DDUTIL remotely and have customized functionality for your specific need, like building in a reset function or some other function/s so you can run your radio reliably from 1000 miles away.  There isn't any Kenwood CAT command to reset the amplifier, and a dead amplifier when you're 10 hours away is a problem.  So jumping up and down screaming for a wagon and a horse when with some planning you can have a Tesla is the joke not vis versa.  It's time to move on into the future.  The 6xxx radio clearly has a vision associated with it and doing **** things like continuing primary support for 50 year old Kenwood CAT technology and 50 year old 9 pin serial port hard wire technology as primary I/O IS the problem, not the solution.  There is nothing plastic about that stuff.       

Also there is the issue of paying for what you want.  Flex provides a radio.  That is what you bought.  You didn't buy a radio station from them.  You didn't buy automatic remote antenna switches, and rotor controllers and Steppir controllers and frequency agile amps from flex.  You bought those from someone else.  Why should Flex then provide endless engineering support for your Rube Goldberg conception of what a station should be?   Best I can see it's not Flex's problem.  When Flex sells you an amp and station controller to go along with your 6xxx radio THEN is when it becomes their problem.  

73  W9OY

Simon Lewis

Lee

I don't need anything but a CAT out of the 6000 thats all and direct HW - the rest of my station would manage quite well without DDUTIL

my SPE amps run RS232 CAT and in Kenwood I don't need any of the interfaces for the amps mentioned here they are not the ones I own

But - practially EVERY radio I have owned since prob mid -late 80's offers CAT out of a port to drive other gear.

I don't want / need remote so reliable switching / starting of remote kit is no interest - I need a cable that runs from the 6000 to either the station controller or the amp to band switch without relying on 3rd party SW and will drive the rest of the station controller stack

While I agree there is a future in IP connected equipment the fact is that the legacy gear still needs to be supported - as it is by every other manufacturer just now - to not do is a critical error and one that is causing annoyance amongst Flex ops.

I strongly disagree that it not being supported isn't Flex's problem - the 6000 should support CAT out of HW and should have done so from day 1 - to not do so is IMHO a huge mistake and should have been done to cover the gap while future visions of IP connected gear eventuates and that will take some years yet - the constant train of people asking the same question clearly shows its a problem that is still causing difficulty

I have never asked Flex to engineer my station - after 40 years in the hobby I think I can just about manage that but I do expect Flex to have thought about support for HW that people still have on the desk and not rely on 3rd party shareware plug ins to do what essentially they should have done from day 1 and provide band switching data out of the HW rather than having to rely on a PC running yet another program to do something as simple as offering band data to other devices

Once Mastro eventuates my plan is to ditch the PC completely for SSDR - I am not a contester - the current state is that you have to remain tied to a PC to band switch an amp - sorry but thats a ridiculous thing to have to do - while you might see it as 50 yr old tech all of the mainstream station controllers, amps and antennas switches sold in the last few years still rely on it. And I can't think of any new amp etc on sale now that does not either.  No one that I know can afford to simply buy a flex and ditch every device and go IP - either in time or money.

Provision of legacy support of CAT from HW without a PC is a mistake. I love my Flex but this is a gap that is very much more than annoyance. Every mainstream manufacturer supports it and will have to remain supporting it for many years yet ... IP or no IP.

W9OY

I bought a $35 raspberry pi 3.  I spent another 4 bux on a memory card.  It runs Win 10 IOT (free) and has a built in Ethernet port, built in wifi and bluetooth.  It runs C# and other variants natively.  I wrote a little program and I can SSH in (or powershell or what ever its called) and make it run from across the house no problemo.    It looks to me the software to run the GPIO pins should not be too hard as the libraries are all there.  This should give you a serial port and BCD which IP's into the radio for band data.  The Pi runs about a watt and my experience with Linux vaiients is its very reliable.  If you had this plugged into the network it could fetch the band data and run the amp/s, antenna switches etc dedicated, headless, from anywhere.  It's about the size of a deck of cards.  

All this kvetching about "computers" is a bit crazy.  This is a SOFTWARE DEFINED RADIO.  It doesn't work without a computer.  I'm not much of a programmer and don't really have the time to get booted into that right now but it looks to me this project would take a weekend (probably less) for someone who knows his **** from his elbow about C# or C++ programming and understands how to get band data out of the Flex interface.  

73  W9OY

KY6LA_Howard

@Simon

Let me join the debate... I too run the SPE and a SteppIR and about 1/2 dozen other peripherals from my Flex via DDUTIL...In fact, I was the prime mover to get SPE to provide an API and to get Steve K5FR to program the SPE amps into DDUTIL to overcome the obvious remote control shortcomings of their Amps.  As you probably know I DX, contest AND run Remote and Local Stations

DDUTIL does a marvelous job controlling my station.  Features such as Autodrive  give the ability to safely run my amps without distortion generating ALC.

I have had Acom, 7800 and K3 here and still have them at the contest station.  Your idea of everything being controlled by HW band data is rather unrealistic. We needed all sorts of physical HW translators and interfaces to get things to work at the contest station.  NONE of them does anywhere near as good a job of control as DDUTIL... Have you ever tried to reverse a SteppIR from an Icom or K3...   or turn on and off and set power levels and switch Antennas on the SPE from any Radio.....You can't but with DDUTIL and Flex you can. 

Frankly I am puzzled by these requests of PC Less Interconnectivity because typically the amount of middleware hardware interfaces you need to make other radios work can be much more complex and unreliable than a PC and DDUTIL Plus they give you so much less control...

I have run my station from all over the world relying on DDUTIL to do band switching safely which is does.  Running the Icoms and K3 at contest station remotely is no where near as flexible, reliable, elegant or as safe.

HOWEVER... with the advent of Maestro.. it is pretty obvious that you can run the 6000/Maestro without a PC.so I would not be too surprised if at some point Flex brings out something like the 4O3A Station Genius which is an IP based interface box to run peripherals...

Personally I would hope that they never provide band data via RS232 or USB albeit.  These will be a support nightmare. Like they are with every other radio to say the least.

I did see a 6000 controlling an Amp and SteppIR from the USB port at Visalia a few  years ago,... In fact, I posted a video of it (on the old reflector) at the time....

Walt - KZ1F

Simon, as I understand it , you still need a Windows computer to download SmartSDR, which does 3 things now:
1) installs SSDR for Windows w/ VSP
2) installs SSDR to the radio
3) installs smartSDR for Windows to Maestro

Where I partially disagree with Lee is, while SDR requires software, that doesn't necessarily require a consumer general purpose computer as the required software runs in the radio. That SSDR requires SSDR for Windows is incidental to Flex and a few other knockoffs., as evidenced by the 7300 and KX-3. Also, where I agree with Lee is, this summer XPSSDR will have a local Pine64 (could be RP 3) in the shack to proxy station control requests to the amp, tuner, rotor. Where XPSSDR is not currently remote-able, that proxy is not a pressing concern. I am, however, awed that ddutil if free. Clearly, without Steve Nance, FRS would have a huge issue. Of course that ddutil is free to us doesn't necessarily mean Steve Nance is doing it uncompensated.

Walt - KZ1F

Why did that not get productized? That was towards the top of the list of why I bought a 6000. It was a huge **** when I discovered that functionality was vaporware.

KY6LA_Howard

I suspect because of the huge support nightmare. It would,generate. Right now all peripheral support is via DDUTIL With USB it would be a massive nightmare of incompatible interfacing issues. Which is why I hope they never do USB.

Walt - KZ1F

I believe Simon's point refuted that. My dev system doesn't do RS-232. My DCU-1, KPA-500, and KAT-500 all use RS-232 but a USB to rs232 cable solves that issue FB. No support issues and no ddutil (on Linux). Natively under Linux I can use the Elecraft firmware apps to control the hardware, including power on and off sequencing. I can send the same commands from XPSSDR. In fact, seeing the linear, rf. power out spans o->700w. At 100, it transitions from 100w back to teens transitioning the linear from stdy to oper.
Of course my goal wasn't to write a Swiss army knife. But that would only be marginally more difficult. All via usb., which, BTW, hasn't ever broken. TCP doesn't solve 'massive incompatibility issues'.

IW7DMH, Enzo

Hello,

I follow an italian group where, just one year ago, Flex System and all its world was literally unpopular. In the last period, instead, a lot of discussions are coming out talking about how simple and convenient will be using an entry level 6300 equipped with Maestro.
I think it is no more a matter of knobs yes/no, but how simple it will be managing a powerful sdr system without having to deal with the underlying software.
If you had a Porsche Cayenne and someone would tell you "hey man, you can do fuel simply using DDUTIL. To do it you can just buy a PC, install A, connect B and the you can have all the power you need", I am sure you wouldn't be so happy.

Just my two cents

73' Enzo
iw7dmh

Dennis Daniel KM6DF

We all have different equipment and operate differently. Flex staff have not answered  the question however marked this conversation as answered. As we see there is a need and a want to operate other equipment from the flex directly by many operators. I love the user interface in SmartSDR offers and if we can control our other equipment from the one program it would make life much easier. DDU is a great program but you must go back and forth to make everything work like you want. Now with the Maestro coming out if you want to run a other equipment and have it tracked by the radio you must have a computer also running with smartsdr and DDU. To me this is poor planning and as a software radio it should not be that difficult to make happen. Again I would like to hear from Flex on how they are going to fix this issue.

73s Dennis KM6DF       

Steve K9ZW

If you read the Flex Insiders, this community and do a smudge of interpolation it is observable and/or predictable:

1. DDUTIL is "on team" and working tightly with FRS 
2. There is a DDUTIL future hinted in some FRS communications suggesting further integration
3. There are announced SmartSDR integrated internet aware accessories, including Amplifiers, Switches and Station integration.
4. There is a full developer's program for third party hardware/software providers who want to integrate closer with the FRS products.
5. A good number of folk are in those programs AND like the Alpha FRS Team have NDAs, so until it is time to talk they won't talk. 
6. Further integration into SmartSDR of other add-ins has been discussed and may happen down the road.
7. FRS not officially responding to this thread, despite your baiting & badgering, speaks volumes towards a likely set of announcements at Dayton 2016.  

So be encouraged, not discouraged - and seriously consider that your ranting may look retroactively unfair after Dayton.  

It is unavoidable when from a lack of knowledge people go off on rants claiming FRS is doing something other than the continued over-performance on product promises (except some date predictions) and trailblazing many great products that are truly changing our hobby.

YMMV but be prepared to be a Happy Camper down the road.  Just not today though!

73

Steve
K9ZW

Al_NN4ZZ

Hi Steve,
I have also been thinking the same thing for all of the same reasons.    Of course we will just have to wait and see if we are right or not.   Maybe we'll here something at the Dayton Flex dinner in May.  That will be here before we know it.

Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
al (at) nn4zz (dot) com
6700 - HW.................... V 1.6.21.77
SSDR / DAX / CAT...... V 1.6.21.159
Win10

Dennis Daniel KM6DF

Steve thanks for the comments. I would think Flex at least would say they hear the need and are working on a solution. No comment is bad PR to the community.

73's Dennis KM6DF

W9OY

Because you have a burr under your saddle, does not mean Flex is somehow at fault and neither does it mean there is a problem which requires YOUR solution.  You seem to think somehow you represent "the community" and this gives you license to pontificate for us.  You don't have that license.  You represent yourself.  If you want to do politics run for office, but accosting the list is not of much interest.  Let me know when you start having fun.

73  W9OY

Dennis Daniel KM6DF

I am sorry I do not want to offend anyone. I am not speaking for everyone but see post after post asking for how to connect amps, tuners, and antenna switches to the flex.  This community has been very helpful to me and I really appreciate it. But continue to be frustrated with flex not responding to the the question, are they or are they not going to have a solution. I am having fun with my flex system  every day and have enjoyed the convenience of interfacing with DDU and making everything work. However I think a direct connect is better for the end user and I understand the programming challenges but being the state of the art system their will always be  challenges to over come. Again I am only speaking for myself as I see a way to improve a already great product.

73's Dennis KM6DF 

W9OY

Flex pays very close attention.  The solution often involves something much more insightful than just doing what we've always done for the last 50 years and treating people who have their hair on fire.  Some time squeaky wheels just gonna squeak.  An example of insightful solution: WNB.  Another example: CESSB speech processor.  Another example: Flex API's.  I can go on and on.  The solutions also involve taking business cost/benefit into account.  If Flex is to stay in business they can't do **** stuff and they have mapped out where they want to go.  

You know a station control product is being designed so how inclusion of that product's goals and infrastructure with some other user goals has to be considered.  The reason SSDR was developed as a clean sheet product was because PSDR and its architecture started to become the land of kludge, bloat and antiquity.  Everybody and their brother wanted their bright idea included but that made the software difficult to streamline in a way that provides high performance and viability into the future.  I mean no pejorative to you personally and you are most welcome to express your wants and I'm sure Flex is listening.  The discussion is what makes things interesting.

73  W9OY

Gerald-K5SDR

@Dennis

Respectfully, it is unreasonable to ask us to answer every forward looking question that comes up on the community.  To date, we have not placed a concerted engineering effort into station integration because of higher priorities and that DDUtil has provided such a comprehensive integration tool for many years across our product line.  

However, you can expect that when we do focus on station automation it will be much more comprehensive in design than what you will find on legacy radios.  One example from our partnership with 4O3A is the Antenna Genius.  Everything is controlled over ethernet.

http://cart.flexradio.com/Antenna-Genius-8x2-Matrix_p_970.html

The current focus at FlexRadio is Maestro and I am sure more in the station automation area will follow as appropriate.  That is all I will say at the moment.

Al_NN4ZZ

Hi Gerald,
Two years ago Steve said you were working on getting band data out and even prototyping so it's understandable why there are questions on the effort.  But I think your reply above is a good answer and update to Dennis's question.   Certainly priorities change over time and as as Steve noted, more would be coming when you know.   I think the comment about prototyping 2 years ago lead some to believe it was closer on the horizon.  

Hopefully a really good solution will be available one day and the 4o3A products are certainly headed in the right direction.  Sounds like  "DDUtil in a box"  could still happen.

 

Details here:  https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/band_data-3xef1?topic-reply-list%5Bsettings%5D%5Bfi...

Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
al (at) nn4zz (dot) com
6700 - HW.................... V 1.6.21.77
SSDR / DAX / CAT...... V 1.6.21.159
Win10

Dennis Daniel KM6DF

Gerald thank you for the response and I fully understand the concept Flex is taking. I have enjoyed the Flex radios for years and look forward to the future development of Flex radio. I know DDU has been a great addition to the Flex system and have used it for years. But continue to be frustrated with layers of software to get my station to work like I wish however having problems with windows, flex updates other software issues etc. Just looking for a more stable station using my Flex. I look forward to seeing the development and hopefully  more communication to the group on resolving this issue.   Again thanks for all that the flex team does.
73s Dennis km6df