DX spot recommendation - off topic

Walt - KZ1F

In firearms training that's called leading the target. I am mildly curious about that as the brief time I tried cw skimmer I thought it was worthless. The state of the art in callsign decode appears pitifully lacking. So I ponder whether it actually works for people or they simply convince themselves it works. If it actually works, that is only a few hundred lines of code away from completely removing the operator altogether. In fact I semi jokingly said some months back that is what I'd write this year.

Walt - KZ1F

I, to a degree, agree. But for a different reason, I think spots are only accurate maybe 75-80% of the time due to 'Proporgation and incorrect call signs.

Mark_WS7M

I never expected this thread to get so much activity...  Anyway let me state what drives me to do this:

1) I love the Flex Radio concept.  I work with computers all day long.  I write software for a living.  The flex 6000 platform is what I have been waiting for. A network based radio that can handle not only radio control but also audio over the network.

2) Like people that own a Ferrari they tend to group together and enjoy their expensive toys together.  Flex owners for the most part seem to be like this.  We all love our radios, except maybe Burt, and we like to tweak and discuss how to make them even more cool.  So I feel an attachment to this group.  Being able to give back, help out, suggest, and be a part of this group makes it even more worth while.

3) Time.  We all suffer from the fact that we just don't have the time we wish we had.  I would love to have my days free to do nothing but scroll up and down the bands but I don't.  When I do get to operate which is rare these days I'd like to help so I don't spend my precious time scanning about without finding anything interesting.  Yes I could sit and call CQ and sometimes I do but it would be nice to know that something is happening somewhere on the bands.

4) My dream of my personal ideal station.  Everyone is different.  I have reads threads about people that bought a flex or were considering it but worried about no knobs.  For me no knobs is no big deal.  In fact I'd give them up any day for the software abilities Flex 6000 provides.  The fact that Maestro will give me the knob experience, when I want it, is like having the best of both worlds.  But what is my dream of the ideal station?  How about yours?  For me this is what I seem to think I want and this is based on my little bit of operating so far:

I want four kinds of operation:

1) Sitting at my primary PC with the mic, key, and radio near by.  This is my "local" mode.

2) Sitting with my laptop somewhere else around the house.  This is my "detached" mode.

3) Using the Maestro somewhere else around the house.  This is my "detached knob mode".  I have a really nice back yard view of the foot hills and I have nice table in a shaded area under my deck.  I dream of having my laptop and/or Maestro sitting out there on a hot afternoon enjoying the weather and view while doing something I also enjoy.

4) Finally - Remote.  I would love to be able to have my laptop just about anywhere in the world and be able to fully remote by station.  Can the Maestro do this?  I have no idea yet but even if not having my desired functionality on the laptop would be fine.

So these are my "kinds" of operation.  Now what do I like to do.  Well I seem to be all over the map.  I still like CW and I've got my copy speed back up to about 20wpm but I think my mind is going because while I can copy the words by the time I'm copying the next word I've forgotten the previous one.

I also like digital modes.  I like PSK, JT65, etc.  Lastly there is SSB.  I'm not much of an SSB user but I have done it.

So based on these "kinds" and "modes" the Flex Radio fits me perfectly.  Already, without much effort I can accomplish just about all four kinds of operation.  I've put in a relay switch, a power switch and a VPN so I can truly do just about what I want remotely.   I can only see this getting better.

But for my remote or detached modes there is a problem.  While I can run SmartSDR remotely I can't totally control other features yet like my amp.  DDUTIL is a great program but I have had trouble with it when operating remotely.  IE I sort of need a remote desktop connection to be able to see the UI of DDUTIL to make amp changes.  While this is very doable it is kind of a pain and frankly I want my amp and ALL of my other devices to be accessible to me as network devices.

So with respect to the amp which I control via RS-232 I have put in place a network IP to serial device.  This works perfectly except now DDUTIL is not able to talk to it (unless I put it in real comm mode which I don't want to do).   I did try playing with the DDUTIL TCP server but could not find all the commands I needed to control my amp.  Plus DDUTIL sort of requires that my local PC be alive and well.  Most of the time it is but what if it is not?

So all of these things drive me towards creating what I call my own dream station:

SmartSDR - It is a great program.  I wish it had a few more features but it is very close to ideal.
AmpControl - I need to write something that is similar to DDUTIL but does not require to be run on a local PC with a serial port to my amp.

If I'm going to go that far I'd like to integrate some things to help me use my time more effectively:

a) Flex radio spots.  I wrote HRI Agent and the website as a fun exercise.  I hope more people will start to use it as it would be a nice way to know what other flexers are up to.

b) DX spots.  While I don't have a great antenna or station I have been surprised to sometimes punch right through and get a contact.  With limited time I can't scroll around and look for this as Burt would have me do.  I would rather have a spot list and let me then decide if I can hear/work them.  Howards idea of putting them on the SmartSDR display, as an option, would be perfect but so far Flex has not provided the ability to do this.   And from what I can see so far there is no API that I have access to that would allow me to tell SmartSDR to display a call sign on a pan adapter. 

So to handle a and b I need to do it myself.  But I don't want to re-create SmartSDR and have my own panadapters etc.  Luckily Flex though the API in the radio gives me much of what I need.  It's not perfect but it is workable.  

With a few hours yesterday I have been able to create a window the size of my pan adapter and paint calls in this window so they line up and remain in correct alignment with the pan adapter.

As I told Howard in a private email I have to take this a step at a time.  My first attempt is crude and does nothing more than create a window the size of the pan adapter that you can position over the pan and my HRI Agent paints calls based on frequency into this window.  As you move the pan adapter back and forth the window is updated through information received from the radio to keep the calls aligned over the particular frequency they are on.  Here is a very crude initial demo:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7578983/SpotsPreview.mp4

In the above demo the spots are dummy data.  As you can see there really is no signals well perhaps none at those places.

My first goal will be to get this to be fully functional with both data from the HRI website (HRI Agent) as well as dx spots of your choice.  By putting it in its own window that just aligns with the pan I have a bit more control.  I can change how things are displayed, provide controls for filters, etc.  

The only downside to this first approach is that my little window has no clue right now where SmartSDR is.  You have to align it currently.  This might not be so bad but I don't know for sure how people operate.

When I watched the 1.6 video recently I noticed he changes the orientation of the pans a fair amount.  This will not be cool with a window you have to manually realign.  But this is just my first pass.  I have hopes to find SmartSDR, drill down and find the pan, and align automatically with the pan.  This unfortunately is not as easy as it seems because with WPF many of the display areas are just big areas.  They really don't have IDs like older windows programs did for various sections.

Some day if Flex provides a way to pump data onto their display then my efforts so far will make it easier to support that.

So back to my goal:

I want SmartSDR
I want a spots/activity system that helps me use my time better and connect with other ops
I want full control of my station regardless of local, detached, or remote

And on my spots/activity system I am interested in the following:

a) The Flex HRI users.  I'd like to know where you guys are and use it to link up. The HRI website has already done this but it would be cool to see it on the pan or a display by the pan as in my example.
b) DX spots.  Still fun even if I can't hear them to go and search for them. It might help me learn my filters better to see that a station is at 7.010.5 and see if I can drill down to see them and maybe work them.
c) Local decoding.  This is my personal preference.  While I copy CW pretty well there is enough horse power in our current computers as proven by CW skimmer that we could have decoding going on on seen signals.  I'd like to feed that data into the spots.  I think this is a feature some would like, some would not.  It could be turned on / off.  But if on you could quickly look and see a summary of the decoded data looking at that frequency.  Of course this is useless for voice users so it would be an option you could turn on for CW and different modes.

So item C is a personal desire and the problem is that I don't want to re-invent the wheel.  I don't want to have to write my own CW decoder.  I'd rather work with the CW skimmer folks to see if they would add a mode to report the decoded data to my program.  Same thing with PSK, and RTTY.  There seem to be a number of decoders out there.  I'd rather use those and see if I can integrate them.  But this all takes time and a lot of work.

Anyway this hopefully gives most of you a picture into my mind of what I dream of.  Much of what I can can be done now.  I just hope to pull it all together in way that helps me to use these features whether I'm local, detached or remote.

Al_NN4ZZ

Hi Mark,
Take a look at this idea to combine spots and CW Skimmer spot on the Panadapter.  Getting data from CW skimmer is doable, see Ed's comments in the thread.  

I agree with Howard about this being one of the top feature improvements I'd like see also.  It is in the top 15 ( out of 800+ ideas) with 22 votes.  

There is no doubt that adding this feature would be an order of magnitude easier for the FRS team to do since SSDR is not open source.  And trying to keep an overlay aligned with the panadapter given all of the potential variables of screen resolution, number of panadapters displayed, etc sound difficult. 

https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/pfskimer_what_is_the_possibility_for_a_smartsdr_dis...

It would sure be nice to know if FRS is going to implement this idea at some point before you spend and enormous amount of effort trying to do it with an overlay.  

Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
al (at) nn4zz (dot) com
6700 - HW......... V 1.5.1.70
SSDR / DAX...... V 1.5.1.152
CAT................... V 1.5.1.0
Win10 

Mark_WS7M

Hi Al,

Thanks.  Yes if Flex would just add the following to the API:

API calls:

Add - Supply, user gen Id, pan key 0x4000000 etc, frequency, text to display, things to set if clicked

Edit - Supply existing Id, text to update, things to set if clicked

Delete - supply existing Id

Then that would be a great start.  In the ideal world if added or edited entries could have a delete after XXXXX ms then that would make management very easy.

I could see something like this:

info add id=92 pan=0x4000000 freq=7.026 text="WS7M" mode=CW ttl=300000 options=CTCM

So this line would add the text WS7M over frequency 7.026 on pan 0x4000000  It would give it unique ID 92 and it would live for 5 minutes.  The options field could allow control of things like just display only, click to tune and change mode, etc.

To update an item you would call

info edit id=92 freq=7.070 text="WS7M" mode=DIGU

This would update the item, refresh the ttl etc.

To delete an item:

info delete id=92

Then it's gone.  With this simple little API external software would have all the tools they need to manage displaying stuff on the pan.

I could see some more options:

None - Just a display item.  No special features
IconOnly - No text just display an icon
CTCM - Click tune and change mode
etc.

But yes... without this trying to overlay the pans is difficult and if they move around really there is no easy way to keep them aligned.

Ken - NM9P

Neat approach, Mark.  Thanks.

Walt - KZ1F

"Using your GPS to avoid traffic jams" -- I find the problem with that is before you can say 'find me a detour' you are already IN the traffic jam. but that is kind of off - off topic. So does off - off topic mean it's on topic???

Burt - what these guys are talking about is only marginally off completely removing the operator altogether. It's kind of like loving to play chess by watching two chess playing programs play each other. Isn't that just voyeurism? "I like to just watch". haha. Now I am creeped out.

I believe there is a bit of cognitive dissonance here. You (Burt) said earlier you'd sell you radio if not for the panadapter (words to that effect). Yet you criticized people for doing, or wanting to do, precisely what is a logical extension of using a panadapter at all...labelling the signals.

That was just an observation Burt, don't take it personally.

Mark_WS7M

Not sure why you are worried about points or awards for using a GPS Burt.  You made it pretty clear in another thread you think contesting is silly.

I believe there are people in this world Burt that resist change when they can't immediately see the benefit of it.  It takes time before such individuals come around and in some cases they never do.

Change however is inevitable and whether you like it or not this "service" as you so fondly put it will evolve whether you like it or not.   I see the presentation of pan adapter data as a big step in being better at our service.

I also believe I can be even better if I know what those peaks are on the pan adapter so lets label them!!!

Walt - KZ1F

But, there is kind of a point in what Burt is reacting to. The following really only works, at this point, for CW or digital. Programmatically, what do we know how to do?
1) We can predict band openings/closings based on sunspot cycle and season and atmospherics.
2) We can programmatically send computer generated text
3) We can programmatically decipher cw and digital signals - I argue not so much
4) We can automatically log contacts.
5)We know, based on dx spotting, what ops are on what frequencies
6) todo: write a program to switch bands based on predicted openings based on one's qth and point the beam to the predicted best bearing. Listen for the identified station calling cq or qrz, call, listen for his response (our call), respond "5nntu" then move to the next, auto log contact.

Basically this program could get 5BDXCC in a couple of days, if not hours. So, ham radio is reduced to a spectator sport. It will really be like who has the best dx program...chess program. Actually knowing how to play is optional. So, yes, Burt has something of a point. DXCluster only provides a leg up over people that don't have dxcluster. Ditto with cwskimmer. Following this to it's logical conclusion, software can process the variables way faster than an operator can, so really that becomes the ultimate advantage; who has the best program or is the best programmer. And for the person who writes that, it would be foolish to advertise that fact...just enter every contest and either win, place, or show...in every contest.

Mark_WS7M

I could quote:  Resistance is Futile 

But I won't.

Yes.. what you mention is possible and it could be carried to that point.  Maybe it will.  But I don't think that is really where I am going.

In my car I have GPS.  I have the option of plugging in an address and letting the box tell me when to turn, even how fast to go, etc, until it says "you have arrived.".

Without a doubt it works but is it the best, most efficient?  Certainly not.  Often my GPS sends me strange ways.  So like most "automation" I can turn it off.  The same would be true of what you mention above.  If you don't want it, turn it off.

I do see that a fully automated program could do what you mention but still not as well perhaps as a combination of human intelligence armed with data.  I could be wrong but the computer program you hypothesize could be a blind attempt and move on.  Where as a human operator armed with the data could better look at the conditions, noise etc. and make decisions to skip or jump from the logical sequence.

Anyway I have my desires.  They don't go as far as you and Burt are suggesting.  I do want to be able to label my signal peaks whether are from a label I type in from my own decoding or from a spot network or the flex HRI it is something I want to do to enhance my personal experience.

Frankly, I think that is what this is all about.  For me it is not some huge advantage to win awards or be a better contest op it is about personal experience.

I have used CWSkimmer during a contest and in fact it was a little more of a nuisance than a help because it often identified as calls people calling IN not the person sitting on frequency so the call was wrong.  Plus in my particular operation of it it refused to stay synced with the panadapter and was often sending me off frequency when I tried to use click-tune.

In a non-contest environment I want a CWSkimmer like tool so I can sort of see what is happening on the band.  Perhaps I'm interested in one of those conversations or I know one of the ops.  I can't listen and decode all the CW myself so having a skimmer that told me that Joe **** was on 7.034 talking Fred Flintstone and they seem to be talking about expert amps would be cool.

Anyway I think we've beat this to a pulp.

Walt - KZ1F

I mention that Mark, only because a year or so ago I remarked, I think it was to Howard, that in 2016 when I was done with XPSSDR, I'd write such an app. Just as the first chess program wasn't too sophisticated, neither would a generation 1 contesting program be, but it could simultaneously run all 8 slices, or, as I suggested, switch bands upon closings, identify cq or qrz followed by de <callsign> and go from there. Release 1 software is generally followed by release 2. I didn't buy the radio because it was such a target rich development opportunity I couldn't resist. I left my paid profession because I chose not to continue designing software (for a good salary). But it is something of a carrot on a stick in front of me. If I had done that, which I can neither confirm or deny, I certainly wouldn't admit to it. I would just win every contest I entered. Hey, then FRS might pay me to come and speak at their banquets. That, alone, might make it worth doing. hihi

KY6LA_Howard

@Walt you swore uo and down that you would never attend Dayton - where FRS has their banquets....due to the sewage volcanoes  --But I suspect you would not turn down a free lunch...


FYI  - I believe I told you this....A few years ago,we wrote a simple basic program to take data in CW Contests from CWSkimmer (Looking for CQ and Call Sign) reply  with  MYCALL  --- receive report then reply with Call Sign, Serial Number and 5NN. MYCALL..

IIRC the computer made 189 Q's in a bit over 3 hours without much human intervention...before the program crashed due to a memory leak.(?) or bug.. But it achieved our main goal of pissing off Dennis N6Ki our CW leader at NX6T...by having a computer run a CW contest.....

I am also aware of a couple of other attempts to automate CW Contest.. IIRC one was actually pretty successful - done by a serious programmer trying to win... instead of just trying to raise the ire of N6KI.... 

But I believe that such totally automated CW Contesting is not allowed by the contesting rules anymore

OTOH... have you ever worked JT-65...the amount of human intervention is quite minimal  EXCEPT its still fun to make Q's especially when the path is -29dB and neither side can actually hear what the computer decodes..

VK7WH Winston

Thanks for sharing your aspiration with us Mark. This has to be the most interesting, most informative and best written post I have read during my two year journey with Flex. I do hope you get all the support and encouragement you deserve. Best 73 Winston

AA0KM

Have had good luck with Fldigi DX Cluster.

http://www.n2amg.com/software/fldigi-dx-cluster/

Clay N9IO

Quite a few of those running around these days, haw...!

I have a dedicated computer running 24/7 with the monitor shut off when I am away
with VE7CC software runnning but connected to our club telnet cluster.
I have tried a few but the VE7CC is pretty nice.
Also work VE7CC a lot on RTTY/CW contests, he's a very active dxer/contester to boot.

Ken - NM9P

I think JT-65 is a ruse!  There are no signals really there!  The authors have installed a hidden database of callsigns and it generates bogus reports to make you THINK you are contacting someone who ISN'T THERE!.....<grin>

But seriously... JT-65/JT-9 are awesome modes that shows how much a well designed program on a very quiet rig/qth can accomplish.  Unfortunately I don't have the patience to work those modes much.  I can't endure 6 minutes for a single contact.  But I have read about JT-65 FAST mode that does it a lot quicker.  I am gong to begin investigating that mode after I rebuild my receiving loop!

Ken - NM9P

Clay N9IO

NaP3 with the callsign overlays is one major reason one of my friends is resistent and chooses to stay with his FTDX5000, it's a nice feature and I find it hard to argue with him about it.   I would like to see it implemented as well...

Walt - KZ1F

Howard, if it involved free airfare, free accommodations and free filet mignon and free liquor, I'd likely go most anywhere. I might still do that, if only for bragging rights! For Dayton, I'd bring my wading boots. Yep, Howard, I do, indeed, remember that conversation.

KY6LA_Howard

@Walt... I have almost talked Ken into joining my group (Dayton Express 2016) ..Would love to have you join us if you bring hip waders for the sewage spills

@Ken .. the beauty of the 6700 FDX is that you can run 2 bands of JT65 at the same time.. Call CQ on alternate minutes.. and run 2 different Q's simmultaneously
really reduces the boredom...  FYI  Only seen Cuba, Venezuela and Australia on 15 and 20 now.. so no wanted DX.

KY6LA_Howard

Agreed... All my K3 buddies will resist the Flex until there is the equivalent of NaP3 on the Flex..

Since NaP3 is PowerSDR Based,,, we likely could run an instance of PowerSDR in parallel with SmartSDR via DAX and post spots there... ugly but it could be done

Burt Fisher

As I read the comments above I am not in your league to debate but I see I have over 100 messages so 1.6 must be released. I will wait until your rigs have crashed before I install

Terry K8EET

Howard, I believe CommCat has a band map function.

KY6LA_Howard

@Terry

You are 100% correct.. CommCat has a band map function
In fact, just turned it on.. albeit currently working 2 Bands (20/15 on JT9/65)

But as I keep saying the SmartSDR display would be so much more useful if one could just have the panafall labelled with spots so you could actually SEE if you can copy the spots...

NaP3 is awesome for S&P in contests...

Jay -- N0FB

It would look something like this:

Walt - KZ1F

I'm gonna wait on that too Burt.

Terry K8EET

Agreed, but I would be happy to be able to populate the active window in logging programs from CW Skimmer, if that was easier to accomplish.

Burt Fisher

Ken how about a JT-65 contest?

Ken - NM9P

Ha! Burt. That would be pretty interesting. Limit power output to two categories...one watt low power or 25 watts high power! But I don't think I could stand the stress of such a fast-paced contest! But then even I could run a frequency with the high power boys.

Mark_WS7M

Now JT-65 lends itself completely to a fully automated contest.  You setup your radio, start the software and click run and go for a long long vacation and come back to find you won the division.  Who needs an operator!?