Wireless - Breaking up blues ---Flex 6500

Steve N4LQ

Is there any hope for LAN operation to improve later?  
I finally got around to trying it today. Wireless because I don't have any wire out to the workshop. Excellent signal on the laptop. Dual Core, plenty of ram etc. I figured if those Winbooks worked surely my laptop would.  The network quality gizmo on ssdr said orange, red or just plain bad. Horrible break ups in the audio and it finally just locked up the OS. Reboot time. 
Ok is it supposed to work with wireless? I've read several ideas about trying this and that. 
Now what I don't understand is this: 
If it can't work any better than this on a LAN how can it ever work on a WAN? 
I tried this with a much earlier version of ssdr on the same machine and actually it worked about the same. I was only 10 feet from the router too. 
So where do we go from here folks? Are we expecting too much?
Steve N4LQ

SteveM

Steve,

Try operating with the laptop closer to the router or with a wired connection direct from the router. If that works, then the problem is the quality of your wireless network and Flex can't be blamed or held responsible for it. It could be that the distance 'out to the workshop' is too great for a reliable wireless link. There are adjustments that can be made to some routers to boost the output power, or there are WiFi repeater devices that may help solve your issue.

Duane_AC5AA

Steve - there's another thread open on this.  One guy has found what appears to be an Intel WiFi chip set problem and if you're using another chipset, it should work (some are buying WiFi USB adapters.)  While this may be what is causing the current problem, I'm mystified about why it worked so well on 1.3x versions. My shack was set up using WiFi (I figure one less wired path that lightning can use).  Flex has it on their list of bugs to investigate, but I haven't seen any hint of an answer.  I hope the problem gets found & fixed, and, while the Intel chip set might have issues, why did it work fine in earlier versions?  Oh well - I don't have the link handy to the other thread - when I find it I'll include it here. (Oh, and my router is literally 2' away from the WiFi'd PC.  Ethernet connection takes care of the problem, but I'd like to disconnect the PC from the router physically.)  Other thread:  https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/audio-break-up-stutters-and-the-signal-display-stut... 

John n0snx

I think there has been some confusion about LAN and LAN REMOTE.  The two are different.... anyway Steve here is the earlier thread.... Hope it helps...
https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/nextbook-similar-10-inch-tablets-suitable-for-ssdr-...

Steve N4LQ

Well it's not a big issue for me since I have other rigs out there.
The router/modem is from Time Warner. It's power setting is at max in its menu and I have "excellent" signals etc. 
BTW: Out in the shop, which is about 10 feet from the house, I use a wi-fi 7 element beam with a built in usb wi-fi adapter. I unplugged it and switched to the internal one in the Lenovo laptop. Of course the signal was weaker and it just got worse. 

Really there's not a lot I can do. Yes I could move the laptop closer to the router but then I don't want it closer so even if it worked it would be of no benefit. 

Oh I didn't say it worked fine on 1.3xx....I said it worked about as well...bad.

Duane_AC5AA

Two comments:
1. My comments related to LAN, not remote.  If LAN won't work, I don't see how REMOTE will work, since LAN is a subset of REMOTE.  I have not tried remote, only LAN, and that is what broke in 1.4 and 1.4.3.

2. And my comments about it working fine in 1.3.8 and earlier is that it worked fine there connected via WiFi for LAN operation.  

OK, enough for the clarifications.

SteveM

Do you have a second WiFi router, perchance? If so, you could set it up in the shop as an access point and would be essentially acting as the repeater I mentioned before.

Why am I suggesting this? Well, perhaps the access point could maintain a better link (higher powered transmitter) back to the main router while affording you a shorter link for the laptop - even a directly wired link if you so choose.

Mike NN9DD

I am operating at about 100 ft away From router all is great. Not experiencing any break up Mike N9DFD

John n0snx

Steve I know from experience that Lenovo uses the intel WIFI chip... I used a WIFI usb stick on my Lenovo and all my issues went away.... WIFI usb stick are very inexpensive. Just turn off the internal wifi and use the usb wifi.  It might solve your issues.

Steve N4LQ

What's the difference in LAN and LAN Remote? 
And yes I do have a repeater for the 2nd floor but don't use it out in the shop. 
And 100ft? Holy cow ...what kind of mega-router is that? 

Steve N4LQ

Like I said....I'm using an external wi-fi stick built onto a 7 element beam ...Pretty cool little device. Works about as bad with the Flex as the internal chip in the Lenovo.

rfoust

"The router/modem is from Time Warner."

I'm sure you'll get a lot of valid and useful suggestions. I'd start here though. I'm skeptical of time warner's routers.  I use mine just for the cable modem aspect, the router part is disabled and I connect it to a much better brand name router.

Since you said the signal indicator in SSDR says it is weak, that indicates wifi issues -- could be a weak signal (due to weak router or weak network card), or maybe interference from some other wireless device you have that may be running at 2.4ghz.

I've been using 100% wifi and lan remote all over my house, and no issues so far.

Steve N4LQ

Now hang on....When I say the indicator in SSDR is weak that doesn't mean my wi-fi is weak too. The Windows network signal strength is full bars,,,,max max...and says Excellent. YouTube videos play great etc. Maybe I'll swipe the XYL's laptop and see how it performs although it is the exact same model. 

TimeWarner's modem is a combo modem/router with internal wifi. They made me take it when I upgraded to "Extreme speed", 30mbs. 
This summer they are boosting it to 300 mbs!

Steve N4LQ

Here's an idea.
Is there a program that can be used to test a network to see if SSDR will run? 
Maybe Flex should find one....

Jim K4JAF

I have the same problems as Steve, even with the laptop next to the router using wireless.  Works fine on the Ethernet cable, but constant receive jitters and xmit is horrible.  Granted I don't have the newest or best laptop but thought I could at least listen in the other room.  Tried all the suggestion, disable DAX, one slice, no waterfall, etc.  

SteveM

Steve,

Have you tried operating right next to the router? Does that get rid of the problem?

Steve N4LQ

Jim
When they say....disable the waterfall...I just grabbed it by the top and dragged it down to the bottom so I can't see it. Is that the same thing as "disabling"? 
I tried that and it didn't help either. 

SteveM

I think setting the rate to 0 would disable it.

Steve N4LQ

Nope. I might try that tomorrow. The laptop is a permanent installation in the workshop with a big monitor etc. Might be easier to move the workshop ....:*)

SteveM

Hmm. Sounds like you do need to confiscate the yl's laptop for testing purposes. :-)

Steve N4LQ

Hmmm...Just tried that. Watch closely. It still moves every few seconds. 
My desktop's cpu utilization stays the same with rate at zero or max.

Walt - KZ1F

remote actually is a subset of LAN. LAN stands for Local Area Network. You get your modem from your cable provider, like TimeWarner. You connect that to a router, be it wireless or not and from that some number of devices can directly connect, via RJ-45 CAT-5e or CAT 6. Wireless is a whole nother critter. Some wireless routers are ****, you get what you pay for. Earlier type N routers worked great if you were in the same room as the router, but the further away you got the worse it gets. At this point I'd go with a type AC wireless router, much better than type N.

Is this problem in general working wirelessly from your shed or is it specific to trying to run ssdr from your shed. I think one issue is people are conflating remote as in wirelessly and remote as in SSDR audio. Audio will put more strain on the wireless router and, with a good router should work fine 100' out. I could routinely connect to my neighbor's wireless router. Make sure you are on the same elevation as the router. Adding a repeater is problematic with Audio, as that has to get the packet then retransmit the packet.

rfoust

I have the same 30mb extreme from time warner.  They made me take the combo modem/router too, but I had issues with their wifi being stable so I disabled it and bridged the modem to a better router.

I think you're on the track, try the other laptop and see if it is any different, maybe walk around it and see if there are spots where it gets better or worse.

Click on the signal strength indicator at the bottom of SmartSDR and see how many packets it is dropping, and what the latency is.  If you see a high number of dropped packets or high latency, there's likely something network-related causing it.

SteveM

That's weird. But I guess it is close enough to the disabled-state for your experiment - the data rate is ~0 if it takes a few seconds to update.

Steve N4LQ

Totally confusing. I'm familiar with LANs after having worked in IT for 20 years. My Flex has always been on the LAN...Just a few feet of cat5 cable to the router. Works fine on the desktop pc which is plugged into the same router. So then....What's "REMOTE" mean? Longer cable? Wireless? 
I figured out in the shop was "REMOTE" ....Does it mean something else?

SteveM

I'm not sure why a WiFi repeater is problematic. The transmission of audio packets takes on the order of uSec to occur. Adding a repeater to a WiFi network is analogous to adding an Ethernet switch to a wired network.

Steve N4LQ

Exactly...What's the big deal about a little audio? It's nothing compared to HD Video when watching YouTube vids...!!

rfoust

"remote" in this case just means sending compressed audio over the lan to your computer instead of plugging headphones into the back of the flex.

Steve N4LQ

Gee that sure doesn't sound like a big deal these days...Audio? Haven't we been doing that for a while?

Doug Hall

It's not really analogous. With a wired switch the devices can send and receive at the same time with no interference and no slow-down. You can get the same throughput as if you were directly connected. That is far from the case when a wireless repeater is used. It's not so much the speed of transfer that's problematic (although using a repeater can cut your bandwidth in half, or worse) but the turnaround time between transmit and receive. And if there are other WiFi devices running in the same vicinity the problem just gets worse. I'm pretty sure network jitter will nearly always be worse with a repeater.

In my experience I have found that a good, strategically-placed wireless access point is better than using a repeater/extender. The Ubiquiti Unifi long range access point (http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-UniFi-Access-UAP-LR-US-Version/dp/B005H4CDF4) covers my entire house (3 levels) and works extremely well with SmartSDR LAN Remote.

73,
Doug K4DSP

SteveM

Steve (N4LQ),

Steve (N5AC) has broken down the network-bandwidth consumers in a different thread. Below is the summary:

1. Receive audio: 80kbps - independent of the number of slices you are running 
2. Each pan: a typical 25FPS frame rate and a 1500 pixel width will generate about 500kpbs of data.
3. Each waterfall: a rate of 80 and the same 1500 pixel width, consumes about 650kbps.
4. Metering: 30-60kbps
5. Discovery protocol: 2kbps

So it seems the audio bandwidth is dwarfed by the other consumers under a typical setup.