Flex Radio Dayton 2015 Marketing. The cliche of the "World Class" guest speaker.

Steve W6SDM

The later is if you're  a beta tester at Pfizer, makers of the "little blue pill". 

Simon Lewis

Burt ... in your opinion .. in his opinion it is an achievement .. the fact is that both viewpoints are valid .. for you and for him - that's what makes the hobby so fun

Simon Lewis

yup .. actually I am having a long standing argument with a friend of mine around the 2.x upgrade . - He cannot see that for Flex to develop SSDR further they are paying developers and investing in tools/platforms to do so. As a certified PM (PMP) and certified Scrum Master working in a front line software dev team, I know how much a sprint costs to run and how much dev hours that equals to. He has some idea that  is some kind of insidious fee structure that will somehow pop out to a full time "pay or your radio is worthless" approach. He also works in IT so bizzare how he should think that but ... his view (he's not  flex owner) is that somehow Flex should not be allowed to make substantial profit on their investment. I argued how is this different from Icom, Yaesu, Kenwood charging $ for their radios that inc's that cost, Or charge $150 bucks for a TCXO board, or $100 for a voice recorder that prob cost a few bucks to make. But he's not having it. Yes the model is different, well not to me in the IT world, Software as a Service (SaaS) isn't new, but for amateurs it is. Bottom line is why do people see Flex as not being able to decide how they make money and even the type of activities they can carry out to do so? All a bit odd!   

Steve W6SDM

If there ever came a wide area disaster where huge amounts of traffic had to be passed quickly and accurately, then the skills hams learn as contest operators would be crucial.  In fact, some contests have extra points for handling traffic as part of the contest.

Not only would the operating skills of taking rapid fire messages from multiple stations, one after the other, come into play, all of the investment that amateurs have made in equipment that's used for contesting would also be very useful.  After all, a high end radio and world class antenna system isn't something most hams pay for just to join the local nets and rag chew. 

The multiple operator contest super stations around the country would be traffic hubs using their high power equipment to relay messages from affected areas. 

So, as it stands, we buy our equipment to have play, learn, and compete.  We develop skills that are useful to the public when they're needed.   

KY6LA_Howard

Steve

I could not agree with you more as that exactly mirrors my real world experience as Net Control during the San Diego 2003 and 2007 Fires.   It was the contesters and Big DXer's who handled by far the bulk of the EMCOMM traffic... '


The Rag Chewers and ARES meant well and tried to help but lacked the big stations to get through and the real world experience of high speed ACCURATE Traffic Handling....

Ken - NM9P

In my job as a pastor, I talk to a lot of people, some for longer than others, depending upon the situation.  After services, when I am in the "Handshake line" greeting folks on their way out, I do not enter into lengthy conversations about controversial issues, nor do I discuss someone's objections to the trustees decisions about the paint scheme of the women's restroom.  If someone wants to chat for a longer period of time I ask them to stand b y until I have greeted everyone, or make an appointment for a longer conversation.  For someone to insist upon monopolizing my time just because THEY want to would be rude to all the others who wish to be greeted.  However, if someone has a crisis, I will ask one of my other church leaders to take over the greeting and allow me to deal with someone who needs me.  Are my brief greetings shallow and lacking in significance?  Yes and no.  They are important acknowledgement of others presence.  They establish rapport that may open the door for deeper conversation later.

I see Amateur Radio contacts in much the same way.  There are times for lengthy rag chews, and there are times for quick contacts.  For me to insist upon a lengthy contact with a rare DX station just because I have an aversion to "quickie" contacts would be the height of arrogant rudeness.  To expect everyone to engage in every conversation with equal depth is not only unrealistic, but disrespectful to the legitimate preferences of others.

Are there rude contesters who do not respect people who are already on a frequency before they fire up a CQ?  Certainly.  Are their rude rag chewers who just fire up on "their" frequency when a DXer or contester is there?  Yes!  And on 75 Meters, my group has almost nightly problems with a group that simply fires up when they think it is "their" time,  without so much as a "would you mind if we begin our net (or rag chew club) in half an hour?"   We would gladly move if they asked courteously, or they could politely wait until we are finished.  We usually occupy the frequency from 8 pm to 10 pm, no longer.  But there are two groups, one above and one below, that start tuning up, whistling at us, or just start talking over us for half an hour before their net is supposed to begin, in an effort to force us off of "their" frequency.    My point is that rudeness and disrespect are all too common on the amateur bands.  Most of the time it begins when one person or group begins to think that THEIR favorite activity is superior to the activities and interests of others, and that THOSE people or interests do not deserve access to the spectrum.

Ken - NM9P

KY6LA_Howard

Ken

As per usual you are the voice of wisdom....

Steve W6SDM

One ham thinks that contesters are rude and their 5x9 reports are lies.  So, we do away with contesting.

Another ham decides that DXers have expensive radios, high power amps, and huge antennas.  That's not fair because not everyone can afford one and they're at the disadvantage in the pile-ups.  So, we limit QSOs to a 500-mile radius of one's QTH and power to 100 watts.

A guy comes in who says Morse code is archaic and annoying to listen to.  Since there isn't a license code requirement, there shouldn't be any band allocations either.  CW goes away too.

This leaves plenty of bandwidth for crotchety old men to host nets that talk about their hernia surgery and medical treatment to cure toenail fungus.  Problem is, as old age sets in these guys start dropping like flies and there's nobody to take their place.

If there were to be a apocalypse of the amateur radio hobby,  this is probably how it would happen.

Steve W6SDM

Guys like that give me the urge to scratch my... um... head. 

Simon Lewis

did you forget to take your meds or something .. seesh talk about chip on your shoulder .. try gardening it will make you feel better

Simon Lewis

you have gone out of your way to be aggressive, nasty and insulting in just about all the emails I can see ... your youtube page isn't much better - as has been pointed out to you .. there are opinions on both sides .. you only want to see yours .. backed up with a tirade of insults to reinforce you don't like contests .. you don't like the fact others have a differing opinion - too bad - accepting others facets of radio is a fact of life - get used to it - at the moment you sound like an A typical grumpy old ham!
 

Bill -VA3WTB

While I do find Burt's comments to be a little on the sharp side I do see his point. It is not fair that non contesters have to move to a dead band or shut their radios off because they are chased off. If there was a contest a few times a year? but almost every weekend. Every state has one, that's a lot of contest. It would be nice if something could be worked out so all can enjoy.

Oh I suppose we are getting a little off topic, as for the Ham Fest speakers? I never feel it is my place to critisize Flex in what they decide not being in their shoes. I'm sure they make plans for things with reasons that most of us have little info on...

Steve K9ZW

I for one am VERY KEEN to hear what Ranko 4O3A and Craig K9CT have to say to the FlexRadio System's crowd. 

Put into context these two gentlemen are skipping the Dayton Contest Dinner Saturday night to speak to us at the FlexRadio System Dinner.

We should be VERY curious what interesting things they have to say. 

As for armchair quarterbacking of FRS Marketing, whatever points might have been worth discussing got loss in negativism -  we can do better!

If Ranko and Craig are willing to give up their time to present, I am sure willing to give up my time to go listen. 

I'll happily buy them dinner myself if just to enjoy their company.

See you there!

73

Steve K9ZW

DrTeeth

Ken, you have sadly summed up the modern world. Unfortunately, every country has that class of people who cannot live and let live and ruin it for others.

DrTeeth

Do you think that those who really behave badly on the air and flout the rules would 'obey' a 75% rule? Good idea but it would rely on everybody not being selfish and that ain't going to happen.

John

If radio amateurs are lying about signal strengths, then what else do they lie about ?
The readibilty segment of the 59 is also very important as its an indicator of speech quality and intelligibility. How many stations have I not heard with 59 reports and their audio is well over driven and splattering across my waterfall display and this is coming from everyone across the board, the leaners to the advanced respectable people out here. Something is not right

DrTeeth

I think Mike has a point. It is a bit like saying that somebody who has a garage full of expensive sports cars is a much better driver than somebody who drives a clapped out 25 year old clunker - it does not follow.

DrTeeth

I can see the point in giving 59 in contests as it speeds up the QSO rate especially when the other end is expecting it. Outside of contests, I give true reports.

Steve K9ZW

Please take the feuding elsewhere. 

No matter if you are jovial or morose,  way off topic and unconstructive.

Baiting is never pretty, and we all can do better.

73

Steve K9ZW

Mark Griffin

I myself operate in the contests. Plus all around other Ham Radio operations. I don't have a Flex radio as of yet. I currently use an Elecraft K3 for both day to day ham radio as well as contesting. There are some who feel that the Flex is not a contest grade radio. I have no opinion on that because I don't have one. I would love to see presentations such as what will be in Dayton to show the contest worthiness of the Flex. I go out on youtube looking for Flex radio/contest video's but don't really see much of anything. I say bravo to Flex for expanding their marketing!

Neal_K3NC

I think we can stick a fork in this one and call it Done!

Ken - NM9P

In a contest the report is an "exchange" originally an honest signal report, but yes, it has evolved (or perhaps de-volved) into the "contest 59" or "contest 599."
In high volume competition contesting, this is acceptable to me because the other half or two-thirds of the report is the more meaningful part of the exchange anyway.  It is concrete fact, but a signal report is highly subjective....What does a signal strength of 9 really mean?  S-9?  20 over?  40 over?  Based upon whose S-meter standards?  There are many different "standards" for meter readings.  It is with the preamp on or off?  On a flex, the preamp doesn't change the S-meter reading, but on my old TS-850, it added 20 sB to the reading,  What does a 57 really mean?  S-7?  or is it a percentage based, not on an exact signal strength, but upon a comparison to usual signal strengths experienced on that band?  Is it a percentage of maximum strength vs. strength above the noise level, which is very different on 6 meters that on 160 Meters.  

So what does an "honest" report mean?  In a contest, or merely on a busy 75 Meter band during "rush hour," does a Readability of only 3 or 4 mean you are garbled because you are over processed, or difficult to copy because there is so much static (QRN) or interference (QRM)?

In a contest, the signal report doesn't really give that much useful information, nor does it reveal accurate propagation patterns of the band or performance of the antenna system.  The only thing that is truly indicative is the volume of contacts.  Software has been written that will plot a contester's log and compare time, frequency and rate and does some sophisticated analysis based upon these bits of concrete information.  The only way that a signal report would be helpful would be requiring a "true" signal strength such as Flex's "-dBm" levels on our meters and pan scopes.  then the exchange could be "thanks, you're -73 in Indiana."

Or perhaps the exchange could be:  "Your report is -89 dBm, garbled due to hypercompression, and your 1K and 2K EQ is low.  I would be able to pull you out a little easier but there are 6 other stations trying to call you at the same time as well as the XE3 2 KHz below and the 6Y5 1.5 KHz above you. If I cross-polarize  my antenna I can get an additional 3 dB of strength on your signal during the occasional ionospheric phase rotation....."  But then this wouldn't be a contest exchange.  It would, however, be a nice rag chew between two friends who are experimenting with antennas and speech processors. 

Frankly, I have engaged in both kinds of operating, each in their own time and place.  They are both enjoyable to me.  They each have their own value as part of promoting the technical art of Amateur Radio.  Yes, it is a technical art, not merely a conversational art.  It encompases a wide variety of activities, each with their own purpose, whether they are enjoyed or hated by other practitioners.  

Even complaining, griping and moaning is part of the communications art of amateur radio.  I know some hams on 75 meters who could win a gold medal in this aspect of the "sport!"  Some of them are crusty old farts, but I love them anyway.  Sometimes they are fun to listen to, and occasionally it is fun to verbally spar with them.  But when it starts to get personal and disrespectful, i exercise my VFO control.  Life's too short to get upset about dumb stuff!

So folks.... Have a good debate, even an energetic or heated one, but let's not get personal.  That serves no purpose.    And if you're a crusty old **** that just loves to argue, I'll buy you a coke at Dayton and spar with you, one old **** to another, as long as you buy me one too and we leave as friends.

73 - Ken - NM9P

Mike Whatley

**** I thought it was "Done" about 2 hours after I posted it Neal!  Laughs.

Lewis Cheek

Mike, how is the weather

Mike Whatley

Laughs. Dawggone you Lewis!  And without a call sign too!

Cheers

Joe, KQ1Q

Re the notion that contesters giving 59 reports are "liars", here is some thoughtful commentary by AD5ST examining both sides of the issue: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&...

Lewis Cheek

Sorry about that Mike, it's N4CO. No lids, no space cadets, no one **** down Social Security. Can't say that since I'm on the check of month club now. Nice to see you're still around. Was not the same in N.VA when you moved. I do know how you like to discuss the weather.

Where you hanging your hat now, last I read was that great liberal town, Charlottesville ?

Lewis Cheek

If somehow ( maybe they do ) Flex could insert the true signal report into contest signal report it would be so nice. I'm just too lazy to change it myself, so just go along with the 599,5NN or even ENN exchange.

Walt

Not to change the "Contest or not to Contest" debate. . .

But what I found more interesting is that I did a quick look at the web sites for both these stations and did not see a single Flex radio (or did I miss something?)

So perhaps the presentations will be "Why I dumped $50,000 dollars worth radios into the recycle bin and replaced everything with Flex ?" 

Or maybe just "You can contest no matter what radio you have". (as long as you transmit 50 KW ERP)

Anyway - I was more interested in the radios and setups they use to make the big scores.   Since I cannot afford to go to Dayton, I will be looking for a summary or two on here afterwards.

Back to running 20 watts to my 30 ft. wire hidden in a tree behind the condo . . . . ready to Search and Pounce !

 

Steve K9ZW

What is off topic is your calling contesters "liars" and basically deriding their participation in the hobby.  Opinions that have nothing to do with the upcoming Banquet, FRS or DXing. 

We should take discussing contesting as a good or bad thing somewhere else, as it has nothing to do with the Guest Speakers, and is really not germane to the FRS community.

I remain exceptionally interested in hearing what Ranko and Craig have to share with the FRS Banquet crowd. 

If you're not interested, that is fine.  It is your right, though once you've had your say that should be the end of the thread for you.

I must be pretty rotten in a few folks books, as I enjoy contesting, DXing, and Ragchewing.  Guess I just kind of like the variety this hobby offers - and all the people one gets to meet through it.

Swinging back to Dayton - I am so very curious what FRS has in store for the dinner.  Maybe I am expecting too much, but I'll enjoy the run up in anticipation nonetheless!

truly 73,

Steve K9ZW