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100% duty cycle modes

DrTeethDrTeeth Member ✭✭
I just want to confirm something. Can I run 100% duty-cycle modes at full power? From reading the specs of my 6300 it looks like I can, but I would rather ask a noob question than fry my PA stage.

Thanks

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Answers

  • Steve W6SDMSteve W6SDM Member ✭✭
    edited December 2014
    I will let someone more knowledgeable than me answer if you can. 

    However, it's unlikely that you would want to.  JT-65 is usually done at very low power, around 5 watts.  PSK-31 at high power is going to cause the receiving station to go nuts. 
  • KY6LA_HowardKY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    I don't have a 6300 but I have run my 6700 @ 100% duty cycle for extended periods of time I suspect that if Flex says it in their specs then it's true
  • KY6LA_HowardKY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Guy is probably considering RTTY and the upcoming RTTY contest that need 100% duty cycles.
  • KY6LA_HowardKY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    BTW. I I have worked JT65 with 1.5KW. Really helped when I worked a DL who was -29 as he did not have a radio that heard better than about -20. But with full power he copied me OK BTW with my Big SteppIR MonstIR. The ERP was effectively 15KW So while JT65 is effective as a low power mode, there is nothing wrong with using power as long as u are not splattering.
  • Steve W6SDMSteve W6SDM Member ✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Wow - now that's gotta be a first.  I feel guilty if I use more than five watts on JT-65.

    It's an interesting mode.  You can sit there forever waiting to see if you were copied or not with those once-per-minute exchanges.
  • KY6LA_HowardKY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited June 23
    The trick is to watch ur output signal. Once you,start splattering then too much power makes you hard to copy.

    But if u can keep it clean u can use power.

    JT 65 uses a 500Hz bandwidth so if u tighten your transmit bandwidth to say 600 Hz. You clean up the splatter so u can use power
  • Ken - NM9PKen - NM9P Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    I am surprised that more people aren't switching to JT-9, which has MUCH more narrow BW and several dB advantage over JT-65.  But then, I am still a noob on either of these modes.  I have run them off and on for about 9 months...mostly off... I don't have enough patience to wait through 8 minutes just for a signal report.  I would rather waste 30 minutes trying to bust a pileup!  hi hi.  (At least I feel like I am doing SOMETHING!)

    BTW, When running RTTY, I  use a transmit profile to narrow my TX filters down to about 300 Hz and it gives me the advantage of a narrow TX "stripe" that I can use to spot exactly where my TX signal is going to be when I am running splits.  Neat!
  • np2gnp2g Member
    edited November 2015
    Its all about IMD guys . You can produce a clean Hefty powered signal YEP !!!Flex is great ...

    Also it really helps using  a amplifier that has lots of GAIN . Little drive ..

  • KY6LA_HowardKY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited June 23
    Oops I meant that JT65 runs 175hz so you should set ur transmit bandwidth to no more than 200HZ to prevent splatter Here is a calculator to figure out how much power you really need http://dwestbrook.net/projects/ham/dBCalc/ BTW. Ken. It looks like you found and are are taking advantage of the easy to set XMT bandwidth setting in SSDR
  • KY6LA_HowardKY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2014
    It's a great mode for remoting as there is virtually no latency issue for Jt65 NP2G. Got it right. U can use lots of power if you can limit ur IMD which is possible and easy to do with Flex as u can easily limit transmit bandwidth by stet ting transmit filters Ur high gain Amp also has to be very linear or it will introduce new IMD that ur Flex has gotten rid of
  • Ken - NM9PKen - NM9P Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Yes, So far I have found the Transmit Profile to be implemented very well.  I have made a few suggestions for enhancements in other posts, but I am very pleased to have it as it is!

    I think the Global Profiles can use some additional tweaking and improvement.  But as I have said before.... Even incomplete, it is wonderful to have profiles of any kind!
  • George Molnar, KF2TGeorge Molnar, KF2T Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2019
    You guys! 

    Always a pleasure seeing you in the waterfall, no matter what the signal level. And yes, 100% duty cycle is fine. The fans will kick to high speed after a bit. You can also set a time out timer (Radio Setup, Transmit tab) to prevent going too long key-down. Just to be on the safe side.

  • Ken N9VVKen N9VV Member
    edited January 2015
    The only printed reference I can find is the Flex-5000 Owners Manual v1.10.0
    page 61;
    ----------------------------
    "WARNING!  Do not operate the 100W Amplifier above 40W in continuous carrier modes (e.g. CW, AM, FM and Digital) for longer than 15 seconds. Higher levels can cause damage to the Amplifier. The Amplifier is rated at 100W PEP for SSB duty cycles."
    ----------------------------
    de Ken N9VV

  • Bill -VA3WTBBill -VA3WTB Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    Hey guy, did you get your radio working? Just trying to keep up with things...
  • KM6CQ - DanKM6CQ - Dan Member ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I think with this radio, it is prudent not run more then 30 Watts out with JT65, Olivia or a similar digital mode.
    I always use my amp, even if I run 25 watts. Let the amp do the work and keep the heat
    outside of the radio. 

    Dan KM6CQ
  • edited September 2014
    Yes, JT9 is great and generally preferable to the outdated JT-65 which takes uo so much bandwidth! 73 Rob G3RCE
  • edited September 2014
    I quite agree, let the amp do the work! 73 Rob G3RCE
  • KY6LA_HowardKY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    This brings up an interesting trade off. As you probably are aware, IMD is a result of nonlinear mixing in the amplifiers With your Flex you can easily limit your transmit bandwidth to eliminate a significant part of ur IMD This is why people tend to copy u much farther into the noise with a bandwidth limited Flex So the question becomes which is the MORE linear amplifier??? The Flex internal Amp?? Or your Linear (?) Amp. ??? Obviously an interesting experiment BUT. The real solution will be a combination of limiting transmit bandwidth PLUS Adaptive Pre-Distortion It will be exciting to use the combination in2015(?) as I suspect you will achieve amazing digital results.
  • Ken N9VVKen N9VV Member
    edited January 2015
    I heartily agree with KY6LA who has extensive experience with SDR equipment.

    There are at least TWO power protocols used in HF equipment;
    (a) ICAS = Intermittent Commercial/Amateur Service
    (b) CCS = Continuous Commercial Service
    Amateur HF equipment typically uses the "ICAS" standard.

    One SDR Vendor has this statement prominently displayed in their Users Guide
    "Clarification:
    AM/FM, CCS (Continuous Commercial Service) 30W;   SSB, CW and all ICAS modes (Intermittent Commercial/Amateur Service) 100W PEP"

    Most Hams have never seen their "IMD" displayed on a Panadapter while testing with
    the standard two tones of 700Hz and 1900Hz .  It is even more likely that Hams with
    Linear Amplifiers do not have an RF Sampler providing an attenuated signal for an
    SDR receiver.  The FCC has allowed us to be "self policing" about the quality of our
    Tx signals and provides only a minimum qualification for FCC Certification.

    The "Big Three" Ham equipment manufacturers DO NOT advertise their Two Tone IMD
    Tx measurements because US Hams do not care about how clean their Tx signals are.
    But with the advent of high quality equipment, like the Flex Signature Series 6xxx, we
    can now clearly see the Tx signals of other stations. This should encourage us to invest
    in the necessary RF Samplers and to understand how IMD products mix and create
    undesirable Tx signals (splatter) when amplified to 1000W+.

    I hope these will be important items for members of the Flex Community to explore in
    2015.

    73 de Ken N9VV


  • W9OYW9OY Alpha Team Member ✭✭
    edited September 2014
    Its not just imd in the transmitter but dynamic range in the receiver that limits digital communications. Receivers with poor dynamic range overload but its always the transmitter that is blamed. Many digital Rx systems have terrible dynamic range
  • np2gnp2g Member
    edited December 2018
    All this is absolutely true  '''''''2 tone  tests  Yea sure   .IMD  well its suppose to be   but there is no rule  that says  should be or (Must Be)  

    I think "Pure signal" is one of the wish list events for flex.For any radio   -25// -30 DbM isn't good for the neighborhood  (far better -45 //   -60dbm   ) 

    Duty cycle  It is an obscure rating to find  and page 61 /flex 5000 manual does state this .
    Don,t have a 6000 series manual to look it up .

    So presuming that was true with the 5000  then a suggestion of 50% on those hard use modes would be pretty smart.

    Oh If you are going to use that 6300 on RTTY at 100%  Be prepared to make friends with the repair department.


  • Ken N9VVKen N9VV Member
    edited January 2015
    Re:  "but there is no rule that says should be or (Must Be)" .....
    well I think I can find a statement in Part 97 that says: Amateur Radio Operators MUST adhere to the best Engineering practices...  and a Ham is responsible to be sure his output signal complies with all FCC rules.
    How can you comply if you don't see/hear/measure your own output signal?

    In the "old days" you could HEAR a key click, keyed oscillators whistling, bouncing dot contacts on a bug, or harmonics. The "T" in RST was just for the purpose of reporting what the other guy sounded like. 

    But, sadly, those days have passed into history.

    "CQ DX" and "599" my friend,
    73 de N9VV
  • np2gnp2g Member
    edited November 2015
    To be regulate it must be defined as an empirical level . To fall under best engineering practices  well we all fall for that  .don't we.

    It,s the difference between a  wish and a must . 

    On a similar note if the FCC mandated this magical IMD  (From today on)  to lets say -40 DBM we would be using CW  or buying something else.
  • Bob - G3WKWBob - G3WKW Member
    edited September 2014
    I found I often could not get a JT9 QSO on 10m to complete with my FT897 due to frequency drift. Was OK after I locked the oscillator to an OCXO. The Flex 6300 seems fine but many rigs will drift too much for success on the higher bands. JT9 was designed with the LF bands in mind. Joe Taylor has stated that even propagation path changes will disturb it at higher frequencies.
  • W5XZ - danW5XZ - dan Member ✭✭
    edited June 2019
    I have been 'shooting into the dark' with poor summertime condtitions on top band with jt-65 and jt-9 with my 6500 as high as 75w out, to drive my final to legal limit...no problem, even with the 47-48 sec continuous transmit cycles, repeated every 2 minutes. Of course, the fans do run at full blast, toward the end...

    73, w5xz, dan

  • KY6LA_HowardKY6LA_Howard La Jolla, CA. Paris and Sablet FranceMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2014
    I ran a RTTY contest barefoot 100W. --- albeit life is far too short for QRP(100w) just to see how it survived The fans ran full blast. The rig got warm but other than that. No issues.
  • DrTeethDrTeeth Member ✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Cough, cough 100W + QRP? We call that 'willy waving' on this side of the pond, hi, hi. Vy impressed with your erp (envy).

    From what you have said, and the specs from FRS "RF Output Power:  1-100W nominal SSB, CW, FM, RTTY, Digital; 1-25W nominal AM", 100W it is on RTTY.

    cheers
  • DrTeethDrTeeth Member ✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Hi Bill,

    Up and running. Not many QSOs at the mo, I am testing various RTTY/PSK31 programs and working my way through the manual learning my rig and enjoying every minute of it. It is a shame that development on most of those programs stopped ages ago. The interfaces are quite 'interesting' - seen that for MultiPSK? It will make your eyes bleed.
  • Steve W6SDMSteve W6SDM Member ✭✭
    edited December 2014
    Willy waving?  I love what you Brits have done with our language.  :)
  • Al K0VMAl K0VM Retired Member ✭✭
    edited December 2018
    Guy, 
       You may not have gotten this far yet, but DDUtil does display the internal PA temperature.. The fans will kick into high speed when the Temp reached 70 Deg Cent and stay in high speed until the temp drops to about 55.. I am told that if the temp gets too high ( 100 C ?? ), the PA will shut down and protect itself.   How long it takes to reach the high speed fan condition depends on how much power your running AND the feed line impedance that  radio sees.

    AL, K0VM

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