RIT/XIT Implementation

Charles - K5UA

A previous RIT/XIT thread has been closed, but I must open another one to discuss the RIT/XIT implementation in V1.2.1.  First of all, thank you Flex for listening to our ideas about graphically displaying dotted or dashed lines on the panadapter to visualize the RIT/XIT offsets.

I like the implementation of the XIT line that is displayed on the panadapter when XIT is engaged with the Flex Control or the XIT button on the panel.  The RIT implementation, however, is very confusing and counter-intuitive to what I would have expected.  I have been discussing the RIT graphic representation with AL(NN4ZZ), Mike(K5UX), and Dale(KB5VE), and we are all in agreement that the XIT should be represented in the same manner as the XIT ( a dotted or dashed line of a unique color).

In the present RIT scheme, the Slice Flag and receive passband moves up or down in frequency according to the RIT offset, leaving behind a dashed line and dark passband where the Slice Flag and frequency was initially. This is very confusing to us, and I would bet, to a lot of other operators.  We would like the Slice Flag and passband to remain at the frequency displayed on the Slice Flag, and graphically represent the RIT frequency offset on the panadapter with a dotted or dashed line of a unique color, similar to the way you are doing it with the XIT offset.

I tried to put the nice drawing that Al, NN4ZZ, posted previously for the RIT/XIT implementation, but I couldn't get it to display in this posting.  Al, could you repost it below my post as a comment for me?

Again, we appreciate the effort, but we would really like the Slice to remain fixed and the RIT offset represented by a dashed line of a unique color, similar to the XIT representation.

Thanks,

Charles   K5UA

Dale KB5VE

Good idea Charles!

Mike K5UX

Charles, excellent suggestion.  As we discussed earlier, the RIT implementation should be presented in the manner as that of the XIT.  It makes operating much easier.

Mike

Charles - K5UA

Typo in second paragraph....meant to say...... "We are all in agreement that the RIT should be represented in the same manner as the XIT ( a dotted or dashed line of a unique color)"

Al_NN4ZZ

Charles,
Here is the grapic....
Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  

al (at) nn4zz (dot) com

Al_NN4ZZ

Reminder the values shown (-0.97 and +1.10) don't correspond to the offsets but they should.  They were just given as an example for illustration. 

Al_NN4ZZ

For reference,  below is an example of the current V.1.2.1 RIT operation.  (i.e. the moving flag and passband for RIT).   My assumption is FRS felt moving the flag and passband was better or maybe easier to implement than the original suggestion.  

- The frequency number shown in the flag is the original slice frequency.  But the number does not correspond to the frequency where the YELLOW line is pointing on the baseline scale. 

- The frequency number in the flag is the transmit frequency and corresponds with where the RED line is pointing in the baseline scale.  

After a while I got used to this but as Charles and others have noted it can be confusing and is not intuitive.  I have to think about it each time I use it.  

As Charles suggested, leaving the slice flag fixed and pointing to the original frequency on the baseline scale would be more intuitive.  The flag frequency number and yellow line would correspond to the transmit frequency.  The dotted RIT line would show the receive offset and point to the receive frequency on the baseline scale.   See the original graphic mockup above for reference.

Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
al (at) nn4zz (dot) com


***** RIT as implemented in V1.2.1 ******

W9OY

So what happens if you move significantly off freq with the RIT? You are left with no passband info in the rit box. This would be far more confusing

Al_NN4ZZ

Lee,
It depends on the zoom setting, but guess most folks would set the zoom to show both the TX and RX frequency.  Here is an example with the RIT set to the max allowed, 9.999 for working a moderately spread out CW pileup.   For anything wider, I'd use 2 slices instead of RIT. 

Does that make sense?

Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
al (at) nn4zz (dot) com


CLICK to enlarge....

W9OY

Actually it does not make sense. A common use for RIT is to listen to 2 different freqs and be able to toggle between them. I want to be able to see what's in the passband and its relationship to adjacent signals all the time. The ability to see signals as well as hear them is the power of this radio. Little blue dotted boxes gives no information. I want to be able to use the receiver as a band scope and be able to toggle the passband between a fundamental and a spur for example and not have to **** around with focus resolutions and all that. I just want to push RIT on RIT off and do it from the knob. Why take something that is well thought out and works fine and hose it up with ten extra steps? There is nothing confusing about how RIT works.

Charles - K5UA

Lee, in contest situations we use RIT to pick out stations calling us when we are "running" a frequency.  The simple and straightforward visual way to implement RIT is to leave the Slice Flag where it is (our transmit frequency), and move up or down in receive frequency with the RIT, which would be indicated on the panadapter by a dashed RIT line.  There are other high power stations on either side of us, "running" their frequencies in the same manner.  I would rather not have the Slice Flag moving up and down with the RIT offset because this would give me the visual impression that I am encroaching upon my neighbor's "run" frequency.

It appears that our operating styles are driving our difference of opinions on this issue.  I guess ultimately the majority will prevail on this, so I'm hoping this post will generate enough comments for Flex to make a decision about which implementation will satisfy the most users.

Stan VA7NF

Interesting dilemma - As said "depending on operating style".

Contest run - The Tx frequency is "Locked" and the flag stays with Tx
DX pileup break - The Rx stays "Locked" and flagged on the DX, the Tx moves

Anyone think of a condition where both Rx and Tx move?  Perhaps the DX pileup where the DX station is locked and a)RIT used to find the last contact b) XIT moved to that position c) RIT dropped to listen again to the DX who, naturally, would be calling you.

Possible solution is to lock a slice which will also lock the attached flag; RIT, when active, will show the active filter or when not active the locked frequency will show the filters.  XIT will either be solid or dotted red (colours and options are eventually stored in a profile).

Charles - K5UA

Stan, in the DX pile-up scenario the DX station is typically listening up 2 - 8 Khz.  The better solution for this scenario is not RIT, but a second slice "B" that has both receive AND transmit capabilities. Allow Slice "A" to receive on the DX station's frequency, create Slice "B" and tag it as the transmit frequency, then move slice "B" to the last known worked station and you'll probably be the next station in the DX station's logbook.

In your "DX pileup break" scenario, using the XIT to position the transmit frequency on the last known station worked does not give you the ability to hear on the XIT frequency since it is only XIT.  Using a second Slice gives you both options.

I may be preaching to the choir here, but RIT is typically a "local" solution, used to fine tune the receive station's frequency that may be off just a tad, like a round-table QSO scenario, so you don't have to adjust your Slice receive frequency every time this off-frequency station transmits.  In a round-table QSO you would turn on the RIT to fine tune the off-frequency station, then turn it off when the rest of the on-frequency stations transmit. The round-table QSO scenario, and the contest "run" scenario, pretty much define the situations most useful for RIT.  For listening to frequencies further removed from the Slice "A"  frequency, its probably better to open another slice since you would have all the amenities associated with a second receiver (independent filter selection, independent mode, transmit capabilities, ect.)

Look at NN4ZZ's drawing, what could be more simple or intuitive? 

W9OY

Since when did this become a democracy?   You think because you squawk everybody is going to drop everything  to implement your bright idea?  Or because you campaign with a couple of your buddies?  Or because you cut and paste a couple of pictures?   I Once knew the editor of the rolling stone.  He had a wall behind his desk embedded in the wall was a sign you could not see.  When someone would come in and pitch him they would see him and the wall.   He would press a button.  The sign would light up.  It said:

 OH WOW!!!!!

My analysis of your analysis is that you have not thought the implications through very well.  RIT changes the RECEIVE frequency so there is no way for you to encroach on somebodies transmit freq by using RIT.  You stated you use RIT in contest to tune in someone off freq while maintaining your run freq.  The radio already does this in spades.  Further being able to use the visual of the panadapter and bandpass to tune in a weak off freq station is more preferable than moving a red box around since the audio video and actual bandwidth are co-incident.  Your run freq is not in question since it stays constant in the flag.  What changes is the offset in the RIT box. Your run freq stays constant in the panadapter as described by the dotted red line so you have a perfect numeric readout of offset AND a perfect visual of offset.  This all works because the red line behaves like an anchor.   This means there are multiple indications that hit your conscientiousness of where you are and where you want to go when you invoke RIT.  Just the ticket in a high stress situation like a contest.

1 the audio changes
2 the red line visually indicates where your VFO is tuned.
3 the slice flag readout indicates where your VFO is tuned
4 The RIT numeric indicates where yout RIT is tuned
5 The passband on the display with respect to the red line indicates a visual of where your RIT is w.r.t. your VFO
6 The panadapter itself tells you where you are w.r.t. other strong stations as well as weak off freq callers.
7  Since the normal visual operation of the panadaper and the passband is to tune the passband to center the desired signal in the panadapter why would you change the radio from normal operation to something abnormal in the middle of of a high performance situation like a contest?  Your method is like having the clutch on the left pedal and the gas on the right in a car, except when you want to downshift you switch clutch and gas pedal functions.  I don't want my radio switching functions.  I want it strait forward so I don't have to think about it.

In XIT the red box indicates the width of the TRANSMIT filter.  It is imperative for XIT to be done this way so you actually can see if you would be encroaching on your neighbor since the transmit filters and receive filters can vary a lot in bandwidth.  The rest of the above caveats pretty much apply.  I think a LOT of spot on analysis went into developing this system, trying to make it intuitive, and I think its successful.

One thing I wish would happen is to allow the knob to control 2 levels in the RIT/XIT.  I was part of the design team for the knob.  We had it set up so each button could produce 3 functions.  The way I ran my F5K in SO2R using the knob was to have a normal press start a keyer memory.  In the RIT case a LONG press would turn RIT on so I could tune in an off freq station a double press would turn off RIT and reset the offset to zero.  I had a normal press on the knob toggle the transmitter between RX 1 and RX 2.  A long press on the knob would send 5nn and the transaction like 5nn FL from another memory.  Another regular press would toggle me back to the run freq/band.  Most of this was done out of K5FR's DDUTIL using its knob functionality and its macro language.  You could do very complex functionality with a single button press.

I had the F5K set up so the run amp was a alpha 78 (broad band) and the SnP was a Ameritron ALS-1300 which was freq/band agile so it would follow the SnP transmit/antenna port and my antenna switch was also freq agile so the amp and the right set of antennas would automatically follow my command.   I could program any amp/antenna combo for a given contest including receive antennas (for 160 test and diversity and such).  I could also SnP with a foot switch.  Eventually this functionality will return to SmartSDR only this time things will be even cleaner because of the API.  We had to program in a lot of acrobatics to make this work with N1MM but there are cleaner interfaces being developed.  

73  W9OY 

W9OY

Guess you need to be Michelangelo: 

Here is how the present rit works see pic:

Panel 1 WWV centered RIT off as in on my run freq.
Panel 2 RIT on note flag is still 15.000.000 and rit offset +9890  note the dotted red line when RIT is on telling you where you are anchored  unless you turn the rit off you can't change the transmit freq.
Panel 3  RIT off, once again on the run freq.
Panel 4 RIT on a new station at + 4300 again note red line and run freq has not changed.
Panel 5 RIT off and cleared 

click click click click to quote someone "what could be easier"

73  W9OY

K1UO Larry

This is a matter of perception I guess...  To me the dotted line that appears when the RIT is pressed should indicate the actual frequency offset and the slice indicator and bandwidth should remain at the frequency where it was originally.    It seems strange to tune a slice day after day with no RIT and used to looking at the slice and bandwidth indicator being on the actual receive frequency and then because I turn RIT on I now need to remember that the dotted indicator is actually the RX frequency of the slice.