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PFSkimer - What is the possibility for a SmartSDR display that combines: - Panadapter - Waterfall -

Al_NN4ZZ
Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
edited June 2020 in New Ideas
PFSkimer - What is the possibility for a SmartSDR display that combines: - Panadapter - Waterfall - CW Skimmer It seems like it would a great feature for DX pileups and a combination I'd be happy to pay a little extra for. (assuming there could be a licensing consideration) Below is a crude mockup -- click to ENLARGE. Thoughts? Regards, Al / NN4ZZ
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  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited February 2020
    I probably should have included this in my original note. It addresses a key advantage (192KHZ bandwidth) over other methods, but is based on some assumptions that need to be verified. Here is my understanding (and assumptions) about the bandwidth question. The panadapter processing is on the radio processor, and only the display is sent over to the client. The waterfall processing (when it is delivered) would follow this model with the processing on the radio. So my thought is that that CW skimmer code could also be licensed to run on the radio side. That would eliminate the concern of passing all of the data to the client. And would allow a very wide bandwith to be processed (e.g. 192 KHZ). It keeps the processing on the radio where there is a lot of horsepower. It also eliminates the need for procesing on the client, another key requirement for future internet access and the ability to use lightweight client display devices. Does this make sense? Regards, Al. / NN4ZZ
  • Ed - W2RF
    Ed - W2RF Member ✭✭
    edited February 2019
    Technically it is not a big problem to get Skimmer spots on a bandmap. Skimmer sends them out on a telnet server. So it would mean that SmartSDR+ or whatever version would need a telnet client, code for a bandmap window, and code linking the incoming telnet spots from Skimmer to the bandmap. That's all! The above simulation shows some additional information from the Skimmer interface, such as when a station is sending, etc. This would be more difficult to implement in SmartSDR+. But possible! What is also very desirable in this picture would be an integrated logger interface. Then all operations, whether normal or contesting, could be done in the single integrated app. Fantastic! Instead, if you use all separate apps, you get the kind of screen I have posted in the attached image. Complex, but it works very well! 73 Ed W2RF
  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited October 2017
    Ed, What do you think about the idea of running (i.e. licensing or duplicating) the skimmer code on the radio? I think the big advantage is that the SmartSDR client application doesn't need to be any more of a burden on the client device than it is now. You wouldn't need to run more applications on the client, and wouldn't need to transfer a lot of data to the client. I think this would be a big benefit for future internet access. It also bodes well for using new small clients like pads or phones. Regards, Al / NN4ZZ
  • Ed - W2RF
    Ed - W2RF Member ✭✭
    edited July 2017
    I believe that except for the panadapter, internally the 6k series operates at a sample rate lower than 192khz. At any rate the I/Q output is planned to be at 96khz. With a little processing between or around the 6k I/Q connection to Skimmer, the full bandwidth should be available for decoding. I'm working on that. If the specification for I/Q output from the 6k is increased to 192khz, that full bandwidth should be available for decoding by Skimmer on the client. Skimming directly on the radio has some advantages. The waterfall and band map (spot list) data would still need to be passed to the client. The main question is how much computing power is available to run decoders without impacting other aspects of radio performance. The interesting version of the existing Skimmer to run directly on the radio would be Skimmer Server. However it's a Windows app, and might take a lot of work to adapt it to unix and other elements of the radio environment. Ed w2rf
  • Ed - W2RF
    Ed - W2RF Member ✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Al, I mostly covered this in a comment on your original post. But to sum it up, I think its a great idea, and also (for somebody) a lot of work. Ed w2rf
  • Greg
    Greg Member ✭✭
    edited June 2020
    I think it's on the roadmap for 2020.
  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    I'd gladly contribute some $$$ to move it up to 2014! I think this would really put the 6x000 head and shoulders above the rest. Regards, Al / NN4ZZ.
  • Bill-W9OL
    Bill-W9OL Member
    edited March 2017
    I use CWS almost every day. Thanks to W2RF's help a few years ago. How did you manage to make the panadapter in alignment with CWS? I always have it vertical. I'm guessing you just 'cut & turned & pasted? I don't think I ever saw a way to horizontalize (is that a word?) CWSkimmer.
  • Ed - W2RF
    Ed - W2RF Member ✭✭
    edited February 2017
    Hi Bill, It looks like there will be a new version of RigSync soon. One of the new features will enable use of a PowerSDR radio as a dedicated Skimmer, with up to 192khz bandwidth. (The current limit is 24khz.) Stay tuned! 73 Ed w2rf
  • Ken W9IE
    Ken W9IE Member ✭✭
    edited February 2017
    I am not familiar with CW Skimmer (YET) but wonder about the COLOR Codes attached to the Calls in the Waterfall window.... Do they or Could they indicate if that Call has been worked in the Current LOG ? 73's Ken W9IE
  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    yes, just a cut, rotate, and paste to make a mockup.... Regards, Al / NN4ZZ
  • Ed - W2RF
    Ed - W2RF Member ✭✭
    edited February 2017
    There are two options for the call colors. Either they are checked and verified against the MASTER.DTA SuperCheckPartial database, or (with some loggers) checked against the log. My RigSync program enables call checks against WriteLog, which is especially useful in contests. 73 Ed w2rf
  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Bill, From your note above, the mockup was just a quick "copy and paste" to illustrate the idea. In the actual production version I think the call signs would easy to read if the letters are rotated. See the one call sign I pasted in below in RED to illustrate. Regards, Al / NN4ZZ
  • Bill-W9OL
    Bill-W9OL Member
    edited October 2016
    Hope it planned for SOONER than that....as I'm not sure I'm on the roadmap for 2020! HI
  • Bill-W9OL
    Bill-W9OL Member
    edited October 2016
    That sounds great. And again, thanks for your help when I was starting with CWS. 73
  • Bill-W9OL
    Bill-W9OL Member
    edited June 2020
    Just wondering, how many ACTIVE DXERS/CONTESTERS there are on the Flex Engineering Staff? Just for info. I have....(including deleted) 365 Mixed 353 Phone 344 CW 334 Digi and one the few Illinois ops to have North Korea confirmed on cw and rtty. and CWSkimmer helped a lot. Finding the pattern the DX station is using is very useful and....being around for a long time helps also. :-)) the rumor I started with SPARK is untrue.... modest antennas, small Chicago city lot, 1200 watt amp. Which is why I went Flex....you can't work em if you can't hear em!
  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Impressive -- it's not bragging when you can back it up! FRS tends not to comment on ideas but I hope they look at this seriously. It would be a really top of the line interface. Regards, Al / NN4ZZ
  • Bill-W9OL
    Bill-W9OL Member
    edited October 2016
    I also had good teachers. You may recognize the call W9BRD...he wrote the QST How's DX column for many years. He and W9DY were radiotelegraph operators at a facility down the street from me. They coached me for the tests back when you had to go downtown to the FCC facility in Chicago. W9DY was the person which inspired W9BRD to write the article about 'Elmering'. While everyone called him "Bud", his real given name was indeed 'Elmer'.
  • Ed - W2RF
    Ed - W2RF Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Tks, Bill. My pleasure!
  • iz7auh
    iz7auh Member ✭✭
    edited March 2017
    How-to inferface CWSkimmer with my Flex-6500?
  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Frank, I have some notes/pictures/video of my setup given the current 1.x limitations posted here: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FlexRadioSmartSDR/conversations/topics/1290 Regards, Al / NN4ZZ
  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    I am a casual DX-er, and occasional contester. But that may change when I get my 50 ft. Rohn 45G and T-11 Log Periodic up in the air. Perhaps by the next VHF contest??? I can't wait until that and the new release of SmartSDR come together in my shack! It is going to be fun!
  • Bill-W9OL
    Bill-W9OL Member
    edited October 2016
    SCREEN Persistance of the CWSkimmer signal. I use CWS with my 5K and WinWarbler. PSDR on one monitor (left) and WW and below it CWS on the other monitor (right). With CWS sending callsigns to SpotCollector. Of course I can see/hear in one eye/ear the split frequency (right ear), while listening to the DX station in my left ear Usually, I see the successful qso in the CWSkimmer window, but not always. A quick glance at the cw scroll allows me to drop a cursor and click to qsy my vfo B on that just successful qso frequency. But usually, I can detect the pattern of the DX Station and I jump ahead to see if I can be calling where he most likely will be listening. I most certainly would 'try' the proposed CWSkimmer bandmap being superimposed on the SmartSDR screen. But I think I'd be most likely to be trying to anticipate where he's going to be listening more than where he 'WAS' listening. But that is important also. I found that most DX stations tend to get into a routine. Because when he works out the subband he is listening to, most DX stations go back to where they started and use the same routine he/she, just used. Screen Persistance would be important! In this case, a feature of PERSITANCE of the CWSkimmer spots that he used in his last progression of split listening would be advantageous. Before computer contest logging, I sent CW with a pen in my hand, so I could write the received exchange more quickly. I also used to jot down on the scratch pad, the DX stations previous qso spots. most of the time, I could actually read the chicken scratching. LOL
  • W5UN_Dave
    W5UN_Dave Member ✭✭
    edited November 2016
    To see how this is being done in the real world EME community already, take a look at the MAP65 decoding for the 144 mhz EME digital band
  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    5-Feb-2014 update

    Hi Ed,
    Alex/VE3NEA said he will be working on the SkimServer for integration with Flex in the coming months.  (summer time maybe?).  So it looks the idea of an integration of the panadapter, waterfall and skimmer could be feasible  It sure would be nice.

    Any thoughts?

    Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
    al (at) nn4zz (dot) com

    image


      
  • Ed baker
    Ed baker Member ✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Missing  is being able to click on any of the skimmer displayed stations  and 
    The Flex going there . image

  • Ken - NM9P
    Ken - NM9P Member ✭✭
    edited June 2020


    The potential problem I see with having the skimmer code run on the 6000 itself is latency and other performance interruptions.  Getting a high performance rig like this to perform at its peak requires strict attention to all of the various elements of timing within the processing chain.  It seems to me that every additional process we add will divert processing cycles away from the other important decoding and display functions and may create problems, delays, latency, etc.  Yes, there is a lot of horsepower under the hood, but do we want to siphon it away to do something that can be done "off platform?"

    I would like to see Steve weigh in on this point.  But if it could be done without penalty, I would like to see it someday.

    Ken - NM9P

  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Ken,
    Based on the comments from Ed / W2RF, if the new CW SkimServer is used the performance impact for the flex software is significantly reduced.   At least that is the impression I got but maybe he can elaborate.

    Also the ability to turn the waterfall and skimmer on/off should allow you to have some control on the processing requirements based on the number of panadapters being displayed, etc.

    I'd like to see comments from Steve and the other experts too. 

    Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
    al (at) nn4zz (dot) com




  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Ed,
    Thanks, that is important.  There is another idea about automatically centering the active slice in the panadapter window as a solution when running the separate CW Skimmer program but I just assumed that in the new combined "panadapter, waterfall, skimmer" display click tuning will work.   But it's never good to assume....

    Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
    al (at) nn4zz (dot) com

    ***** click tuning anywhere in the display should work including on the call sign ******

    image
  • Al_NN4ZZ
    Al_NN4ZZ Loganville GAMember ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Ed,
    Thanks, that is important.  There is another idea about automatically centering the active slice in the panadapter window as a solution when running the separate CW Skimmer program but I just assumed that in the new combined "panadapter, waterfall, skimmer" display click tuning will work.   But it's never good to assume....

    Regards, Al / NN4ZZ  
    al (at) nn4zz (dot) com

    ***** click tuning anywhere in the display should work including on the call sign ******

    image

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